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Old 01-07-2009, 12:26 AM    (permalink
GB12
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
To be fair, the slant route has pretty much been a Green Bay staple since I started watching football. And McCarthy used it in San Francisco a good deal too. Honestly, if it's executed right, the short slant is really hard to defend without opening up major weaknesses in your defense. It essentially manages to both spread the linebackers and to draw the safeties up. It can set up so much against so many defenses.
I was more saying that I'm surprised a Packer fan hasn't heard this before. We play cover 2 teams a lot and there's usually talk about how to have success against in everyone of those games in which they bring up the slants. I'm just curious as to why he wouldn't have been informed of this, not that there's anything wrong with asking.
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Old 01-07-2009, 12:48 AM    (permalink
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I was more saying that I'm surprised a Packer fan hasn't heard this before. We play cover 2 teams a lot and there's usually talk about how to have success against in everyone of those games in which they bring up the slants. I'm just curious as to why he wouldn't have been informed of this, not that there's anything wrong with asking.
Yeah, I just meant it would be hard to separate Green Bay's strategy against Cover 2 teams from their general offensive philosophy, because the two have been pretty similar.
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Old 01-07-2009, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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Slants, slants, and more slants. And then a flag route.

How did I not know of this threads existence!?
Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.
Where did I say that any slant beats a Cover 2? Nothing in football always beats anything. That's what makes football strategy awesome.

And you don't need a remarkably physical receiver, you just need someone who's clean through their breaks and can keep a corner's hands off them. But you need that with any short timing route you can think of.

Last edited by Paranoidmoonduck : 01-07-2009 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:19 AM    (permalink
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Where did I say that any slant beats a Cover 2? Nothing in football always beats anything. That's what makes football strategy awesome.

And you don't need a remarkably physical receiver, you just need someone who's clean through their breaks and can keep a corner's hands off them. But you need that with any short timing route you can think of.
Just making it clear.

And I can bet you if they tell me to block Julius Peppers he will beat me 100% of the time, so yeah, some things in football will always work :D
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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And I can bet you if they tell me to block Julius Peppers he will beat me 100% of the time, so yeah, some things in football will always work :D
You could always go for the knees...

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Old 01-07-2009, 04:43 AM    (permalink
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I think draws and delays also work well because the MLB drops into coverage. At least it worked for the COlts in SB XLI
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:50 AM    (permalink
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I think draws and delays also work well because the MLB drops into coverage. At least it worked for the COlts in SB XLI
Definitely. In fact, I've never been completely clear on how Cover 2 teams aren't much worse in run support. The linebacker's first steps are almost always backwards and the defensive line is usually less held to gap control. Sure, the linebackers have more time to read and react, but you figure that's a real "bend not break" attitude to run defense.
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Old 01-07-2009, 04:53 AM    (permalink
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i think the LBs reactions has to be really fast, might be the reason for the overpursues
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Old 01-07-2009, 05:58 AM    (permalink
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I dunno if you guys have seen these, but GOW introduced me to one involving the Vikings today and I've been watching them all night.

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0400b

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d80d0400b

"anatomy of the play"
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Old 01-07-2009, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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i love anatomy of a play. i watch them every week, they really are great.

all the playbook segments really help
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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i love anatomy of a play. i watch them every week, they really are great.

all the playbook segments really help
Playbook is the best football show ever. The only one I watch.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:05 AM    (permalink
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Hawaii-Georgia game is another great examle I think. Georgia's Dline was just tooo fast for Hawaii
Yeah but I am not sure if Hawaii runs the true version of the run and shoot. If they do then I can see why Georgia beat them down. Usually in the Run and Shoot, traditionally speaking Wrs don't have routes. They run their routes based on the coverages.

ie. Cover 2 --- Square in, Vertical curl

ie. Cover 3 --- Post vertical curl

Zone- Find space and settle.


This could be the rules for just 1 play. So the adjustments are made post snap while watching the defense. So in theory, no defense can stop the Run and N shoot because the routes are adjusting off of YOUR defense. That was Kevin Gilbride's offense. Warren Moon was a QB in this style of offense if I remember correctly.

And so the Bulldogs had success because they got to the QB plain and simple and if you can disguise your coverages you may watch the WRs running wrong routes, or not running them well because they are taking too much time with their reads.

That's one staple difference between the Run N Shoot and Air Raid offense, which Texas Tech runs.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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On offense, how do you beat the Cover 2?
Here are the cover 2 beaters I have and use. Cover 2 meaning Cover 2 zone, not Cover 2 man under, though alot of them would repeat.


You see offensive coaches and OCs organize passing concepts by what coverage they beat. So for game day I always keep my binder with me. They have Cover 0 ----- Hybrid coverage beaters on it.

Below is my C2 zone beaters. These are concepts, while others can be thought of in game planning too.

Smash
go-corner-post
Sail
PA in middle route ( skinny post, vertical with a hash landmark, and so on)
2 X 2- Post-Chair on both sides
Curl/Flat
Mesh
All slant
NCAA
Deep comebacks with inside seams
Post in the middle void
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.
Not true, That might be for C2 man. Cover 2 rules for a CB is zone, between 3-5 yards off playing catch technique. Meaning the WR gets a free release and then the Cb collisions, funnels, and sinks to flat zone, while reading # 2 to his side. So that's why slants work. Mind you Lbs in this system are all spot dropping to Curl and hook zone.

It has nothing to do with Wrs, that's just fan talk. This is why slants in Xs and Os works. Because of the free release in C2 zone. Also the the WR just needs to get inside leverage and shield off the CB, which shouldn't be hard because the CB is already playing off him.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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Definitely. In fact, I've never been completely clear on how Cover 2 teams aren't much worse in run support. The linebacker's first steps are almost always backwards and the defensive line is usually less held to gap control. Sure, the linebackers have more time to read and react, but you figure that's a real "bend not break" attitude to run defense.
Not true, your LBs are reading usually the guard for a run or pass key. Then you focus on the triangle in the backfield and deduce the RB flow. Once you do that, which all is very, very fast processing you play run and hit the gap. Or if you read pass, which is a kick step by the linemen, you drop to your zone.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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I read after the Colts-Bears super bowl that Peyton was able to beat the Tampa 2 Cover 2 with the following:

Draws-Delays-Dump to RB--> Hed wait for the backers to read pass and drop, then throw under or handoff. Addai had so much space that he was able to take chunks of yards at a time. It would also use the pass rush of the Bears against them. Theyd rush up field thinking pass and it would create more lanes for Addai to escape and take off.

D.Clark runs seam route- Wayne Runs crossing route from outside and comes in behind Clark--> They did this all game. Clark would run up the seam and draw the LB with him and Wayne would come about ten yards downfield right in the middle and get the pass.

I know theres more ways to beat it but I remember these two being talked about specifically.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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I read after the Colts-Bears super bowl that Peyton was able to beat the Tampa 2 Cover 2 with the following:

Draws-Delays-Dump to RB--> Hed wait for the backers to read pass and drop, then throw under or handoff. Addai had so much space that he was able to take chunks of yards at a time. It would also use the pass rush of the Bears against them. Theyd rush up field thinking pass and it would create more lanes for Addai to escape and take off.

D.Clark runs seam route- Wayne Runs crossing route from outside and comes in behind Clark--> They did this all game. Clark would run up the seam and draw the LB with him and Wayne would come about ten yards downfield right in the middle and get the pass.

I know theres more ways to beat it but I remember these two being talked about specifically.
Yup, that's the theory to beating it. You want ALL the Lbs to read pass, and by doing that you have your OL kick step back once and then stand firm at the LOS. This tells the LBs to drop back and then you watch them far back in their drop to run up. So by that time you can get 5-10 yards.


But don't forget Manning probably is watching the front too. You have to read what front the DL is in. Like 4-3, 4-3 over, 4-3 under, and so on. Coverages are always associated to the fronts. There is a strong relation between the two. You pick that up from scouting and film breakdown.

Below is the delay we run out with Ward that is a bread and butter play for us out of shotgun. The play is the last play on the bottom on the left hand side. This was against the Seahawks earlier in the season from my game breakdown, running section of the breakdown.

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Old 01-07-2009, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Wait what? Its not ANY slant that beats a cover two, you need a physical receiver running it or else it will fail.
When you're playing the Bills and you run slant routes, it always works.
Our CBs play at least 8-10 yards off the WR allowing the slant routes to be open underneath everytime. That's why our defense could not get off the field.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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When you're playing the Bills and you run slant routes, it always works.
Our CBs play at least 8-10 yards off the WR allowing the slant routes to be open underneath everytime. That's why our defense could not get off the field.
I wouldn't be suprised if opposing Qbs were changing a route via hand signal to the wr to run a slant once he saw that pre snap. I feel your pain though. We had Tim Lewis before we hired Spags and his defense played the same way. Nearly broke Corey Webster down, and now look at him in this new system. Maybe a DC change might help you guys?
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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When you're playing the Bills and you run slant routes, it always works.
Our CBs play at least 8-10 yards off the WR allowing the slant routes to be open underneath everytime. That's why our defense could not get off the field.
Sounds like your DC has your team in Cover 3 shells a lot, or your CBs are pretty raw, does your team have trouble stopping the run without 8 in the box?
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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i always wondered what it meant or why it was necessary for TEs or OTs e.g. to understand the system. Or even WRs.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Not true, That might be for C2 man. Cover 2 rules for a CB is zone, between 3-5 yards off playing catch technique. Meaning the WR gets a free release and then the Cb collisions, funnels, and sinks to flat zone, while reading # 2 to his side. So that's why slants work. Mind you Lbs in this system are all spot dropping to Curl and hook zone.

It has nothing to do with Wrs, that's just fan talk. This is why slants in Xs and Os works. Because of the free release in C2 zone. Also the the WR just needs to get inside leverage and shield off the CB, which shouldn't be hard because the CB is already playing off him.
As far as I was concerned CBs in Cover 2 played close to the LOS and bumped the receivers, then covered the flats.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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As far as I was concerned CBs in Cover 2 played close to the LOS and bumped the receivers, then covered the flats.
Never I have read or heard of any coach that teaches that. I have the Tampa Bay Bucs playbook, and use that as a model of Tampa 2/ C2 zone play.

But from my experience C 2 is zone, so they will be off the Los playing catch technique. Why? Because that gives them time for You, the WR, to come to them, while they are staring at the QB and reading # 2. Usually then once you, as the WR come to them, they will collision you, this gives time for the DL to get pressure on the QB. Then they will knock you off your route, which is funnel you towards the middle, where the LBs are spot dropping, basically covering you long enough to buy time for the DL to get to the QB or rush a through. That's pretty much the theory when it comes to Cover 2 zone play. The Cbs main job is to knock you off your route, and funnel you off towards the middle where the LBs are, while reading the backfield. Now if your RB check releases or free releases, the CB is going to sink, and then cover # 2. All this is making sure that if you do complete the pass someone will be there to rally for a miniminal gain. Excellent theory, but personally not a fan of the Tampa 2 or Cover 2 zone style defense.

This is why you want a undersized defense because the speed involved. That;s why you don't need fast Cbs in this system either. They have to be smart to process all this and good tacklers as well. The safties have to be smart as well and fast to cover over the top just in case the outside WRs get back on their stem of their routes. Hope this explains some of the theory behind it.

The giants run a C2 man aggressive style. So that changes things alot and the theory behind it changes too.
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Old 01-07-2009, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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i always wondered what it meant or why it was necessary for TEs or OTs e.g. to understand the system. Or even WRs.
What do you mean? You didn't think it was necessary for them to know the know or understand the system?
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