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Old 11-14-2008, 05:39 PM    (permalink
Menardo75
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Listening to Warner it sounded like he is done after this year....
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Todd are you aware that Justin Morneau wears your jersey under his Twins jersey during games?
Are you aware that I wear a Justin Morneau jersey under my Flames jersey when I play.
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Cassel is the perfect fit for the Vikings offence. If they can land him in F/A they will be a superbowl contender next year IMO
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Old 11-14-2008, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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I never thought of it like that before.
It doesn't seem like anyone does, but when you look at it, it makes sense. The Patriots practically run a spread offense, and pretty much have since Brady's emergence as starting QB (with the exception of 2004 and parts of 2006), they've used the short pass or the formation to substitute for a run game at times, and they've been at their best when they've had great talent at the WR position. IMO it screams system, especially since Cassel has been able to come in and do a decent job of replacing Brady.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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IMO, I think we need to give more credit to Bellicheck's and McDaniels's(Also Weis's) offensive system. Now I am not saying ANY QB can go to New England and be a pretty good QB, but anyone with any slight bit of good decision making and good under pressure in the Pats system can be successful there, you do not have to be very athletic or talented in the least bit. As you can see that in both Cassel and Brady were not the most physically gifted QBs but, the system and the coaching has made it work.

Right now I believe Tom Brady is one of the best QBs of all time, but I also don't think he would be here without Bellicheck. Look at Brady coming out of Michigan, he was a 6th round pick, and was not really expected to do much in the NFL. I mean look at his combine pic...

He had an average NFL arm, very intelligent and had good size for the NFL, but other than that he was nothing special. Coming out of Michigan he was really just a late round pick, and up most of his collegiate career but Brady did get a chance to start. Now in the NFL, Bledsoe went down and the young QB comes in... and we all know what happens after that. The thing is however that until last years record breaking year, Brady has always been a 25 TD 10 INT guy, but since his rookie year he has progressed astoudingly with the help of great coaches, a perfect New England Offense and plain out experience, into one of the greatest QBs in the NFL ever. He still does not have rocket arm, or much athleticism but he is one of the best decision makers at the QB position to play the game... and I mean look at him now....


Now the Matt Cassel story. Coming out of high school Cassel was seen as a little over average prospect and had a good accurate delivery. As you all know he went to USC to back-up Heisman winners Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart, who knows maybe if he got his chance Cassel would be on the Cardinals right now and a Heisman winner, Leinart and Cassel are not much different aside form Leinart being a lefty. After backing-up since high school he was selected in 7th round by the Patriots, the story is almost exactly the same as Brady's, hell there even the same height and around the same weight. Cassel has finally gotten his chance to start with the season ending injury to Brady, and so far through this NFL season, even after a rocky start, it has been IMO a success.

Unfortuantely we will never know who is right, I firmly believe it is Bellicheck and the offensive system, but it is impossible to determine as of right now. Cassel will either be resigned and back-up Brady yet again, or sign on another team with a different system and different coaches. Either way you look at it... as a back-up, we will never see him play unless Brady is injured again, and if he goes to another team, he can play well and show that he has had talent all along, but if he fails it shows that the Patriots system is just an ingenious invention, by Bellicheck and his offensive coaching staff. You can compare rosters of Tom Brady and Cassel's team, and really it is not much different except for the offensive line, Randy Moss just does not try with Cassel there, and I doubt he would with old Brady, and Troy Brown = Wes Welker, and IMO old David Patten > Jabar Gaffney.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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I would say the way they let QBs progress is very intelligent (giving many high percentage throws and asking very little early on to build confidence, and slowly expanding on things), but the system? It looks no more ingenious to me than your average spread offense with a slight passing skew.
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:53 PM    (permalink
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Maybe we'll find out next year when Cassel moves elsewhere?
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Old 11-14-2008, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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I would say the way they let QBs progress is very intelligent (giving many high percentage throws and asking very little early on to build confidence, and slowly expanding on things), but the system? It looks no more ingenious to me than your average spread offense with a slight passing skew.
Well that is it as you said, people say the spread would not work in the NFL, but the Patriots manage to run a form of it. As you said in Texas Tech all there QBs put up big numbers and I think that the Patriots system is what makes the QB, and while they learn and become better as they play, but if they never played with it we might be saying Who is Tom Brady?

EDIT: To Jbond: Yes, that is what will help determine the Patriot system theory.
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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I dont think there is anyway that Cassel stays, not only are some teams gonna be throwing alot of money his way but i dont think he wants to remain a backup for the rest of his career which he will in New England. I think learning behind Brady and being under Belichicks tutelage has benefited him a great deal and hes now an above average NFL quarterback, with more playing time and experience he could become quite good.
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Old 11-14-2008, 09:51 PM    (permalink
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everyone is overreacting waaaaaaaay too much right now.


and no, he's not even in the old Brady's league.
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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everyone is overreacting waaaaaaaay too much right now.
Interesting fact:
Matt Cassel career QB rating:85.6
Eli Manning career QB rating:75.5

Each have a super bowl ring

Cassel>>>ELI

(just kidding...sort of)
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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based on what? the fact that brady's much better now? or that you've forgotten that, talent wise, brady was largely ordinary in 2001 but was smart enough to make the right throws in a system tailored towards making his position easier to play?
I really think talent wise old Brady and Matt Cassel now are equals, same height, same weight, both intelligent, average to above average arms, and Tom Brady was a bit of a better decision maker back then IMO but Cassel is not horrible. I'll say it again I think the Pats spread-like system is the reason behind Brady, and if Cassel fails anywhere but New England it made him.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Oh god. I don't even want to touch this anymore. System quarterbacks and Brady isn't really that goods. I really just don't feel like it after last year.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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Oh god. I don't even want to touch this anymore. System quarterbacks and Brady isn't really that goods. I really just don't feel like it after last year.
If you can't handle an opposing viewpoint, there is always the option of not reading it and not posting.
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Old 11-14-2008, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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I'd have to go with Brady. What Brady didn't have was Wes Welker and Randy Moss. He had Troy Brown, David Patten with Antoine Smith. Josh McDaniel's offense allows any QB to successful with the ability to make short easy passes that doesn't require the QB to have great physical tools. I know Brady had Charlie Weis but it required him to make more NFL throws and reads.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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If you can't handle an opposing viewpoint, there is always the option of not reading it and not posting.
This is how it all starts. Contests. Contests, contests, contests. We're fans. We're competitive and we like to delude ourselves into thinking we're connected and we matter. I get that. Hell, I understand that as well as anyone else. But still, it's just the lamest thing in the world when people try to take away from a guys success just for the sake of it. This is what the Brady vs. Manning debates have turned into. I thought it would be a lot better after Brady broke out last year, but now I kinda realize what you guys have been going through for the past couple years with the numbers crap as well.

It's seriously lame. I don't even want to legitimize the arguments by addressing them on any other level than saying it's lame and it's extremely, extremely petty. It doesn't really matter if some football genius on the internet makes a compelling enough argument against the how the way a quarterbacks toes are angled gives them an advantage in the veer offense, so Mike Vick is the greatest quarterback of all time. If a guy does something, he's capable of doing it where he is. We know that. One can't reasonably conclude that he isn't capable of doing something on a comparable level until they're actually put in that position. The NFL is not a level playing field. It never was, and it probably never will be. With quarterbacks, we hold it against a guy if they aren't running the same offense as everybody else and aren't throwing to exact robotic copies of the same receiver. Situations are different. Teams play the game in different ways. If they didn't, football would be boring. On the college level, moreso the prospect level, it's crucial to evaluate what offense a quarterback is playing with ect ect ect. It's because they might not quite be what the numbers make them look to be and they're a high at risk to flop in the big boy game if they aren't. In the NFL, that really doesn't matter. This is it. The end. Guys here don't make it unless they shredded through college or have elite level physical skills...usually it's a combination of both. The only thing that matters in wins and losses and whether or not a guy can put you in a position to be get more of the former.

Coaches have jobs for a reason as well. It's not just the players. It's their job to put guys in the best position have success, not necessarily statistically digestible or friendly success, but usually that comes with the territory. Stats will never, ever tell the entire story. If GM's judged players by boxscores, we would have a lot more bad football than we already do. They're not balanced metric. Guess what? They never will be. Tom Brady attempted 578 passes last year. A majority of them came in the shotgun. We don't have a legitimate running back. Maroney is really, really soft. He's garbage when he doesn't have a wide open hole. He cuts well, but he cuts into traffic and puts himself in a position to take big hits. Every single one of those passes was attempted in order to win a football game, not to mask any kind of deficiency, other than our inept running game.

It's not like he's not making a read. In a college spread offense, like Texas Tech, they make almost zero reads whatsoever. Most of it is determined at the snap. Brady is the absolute best in the league at dissecting a defense, reading coverages. It's not like he was throwing underneath every play. We had Welker to do that. That's only smart. If you have the best slot receiver in the game, you damn well better play up to his strength. Same goes with Moss. His strength happened to be the deep ball, the first time in appeared in our offense. While our receivers were good last year, it still ultimately came down to Brady making reads. A lot of the time, that was on screen passes and dumpoffs...but guess what? It works. It's working at the highest level of competitive football that exists. If we were doing anything else, it wouldn't be catering to the strengths of our offense. That's probably what this all comes down to; Player X would be better in offense Y, or Player Y wouldn't be what he was with team X. Guess what? That's probably true. If we were suddenly to have some kind of freaky, ******** mass quarterback swap, everybody would look different. Some guys would look better, some guys would look worse. You put oldschool Daunte Culpepper in our offense, and he doesn't quite touch Brady, but he puts up numbers similar to him. That's it though. It's just numbers ultimately. Tom Brady is an elite, elite, elite NFL quarterback. He hasn't done a thing to contradict that statement. All this fantasy football stuff is what it is. If you talk to any team in the NFL, there's probably only a few of them secure enough in their situations to say they wouldn't want him playing for them...and that has more to do with team chemistry and not trying to reinvent something that is already working.

There's only one guy who you can say might be legitimately better than Brady. There's no way around it. There's probably never going to be a satisfying conclusion to that argument either, and ultimately it's just leading to pecking at every little detail and fans trying to take away from just how great those two guys are....and it's really kind of depressing as a fan of the game. Saying stuff like if Cassel goes somewhere else and doesn't look as good as he does in our offense then Brady is a flop is just...gah. I don't even know how to digest that. Of course our offense has something to do with it. There's no doubt our coaching had something to do with it as well, but situations are just as big of a factor as a guys talent. Look at all the busts we have at the quarterback position. With them, you'll most likely find a poor supporting cast and poor coaching. Conversely, the same can be said for successful quarterbacks. If Matt Cassel flops, which I think he will, he's a bad quarterback. He's not a franchise guy who can get you to a Super Bowl. He's not even a guy who can make a defense pay when they blow a coverage. He is what he is. An average NFL quarterback, and a compelling story, throwing to good receivers and making them play down to his level. Tom Brady is an entirely different player.
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Old 11-15-2008, 01:08 AM    (permalink
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tl;dr...

and that. was that.
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Old 11-15-2008, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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tl;dr...

and that. was that.
Pretty much.

All of this is really, really stupid.
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Old 11-15-2008, 05:42 AM    (permalink
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This is how it all starts. Contests. Contests, contests, contests. We're fans. We're competitive and we like to delude ourselves into thinking we're connected and we matter. I get that. Hell, I understand that as well as anyone else. But still, it's just the lamest thing in the world when people try to take away from a guys success just for the sake of it. This is what the Brady vs. Manning debates have turned into. I thought it would be a lot better after Brady broke out last year, but now I kinda realize what you guys have been going through for the past couple years with the numbers crap as well.

It's seriously lame. I don't even want to legitimize the arguments by addressing them on any other level than saying it's lame and it's extremely, extremely petty. It doesn't really matter if some football genius on the internet makes a compelling enough argument against the how the way a quarterbacks toes are angled gives them an advantage in the veer offense, so Mike Vick is the greatest quarterback of all time. If a guy does something, he's capable of doing it where he is. We know that. One can't reasonably conclude that he isn't capable of doing something on a comparable level until they're actually put in that position. The NFL is not a level playing field. It never was, and it probably never will be. With quarterbacks, we hold it against a guy if they aren't running the same offense as everybody else and aren't throwing to exact robotic copies of the same receiver. Situations are different. Teams play the game in different ways. If they didn't, football would be boring. On the college level, moreso the prospect level, it's crucial to evaluate what offense a quarterback is playing with ect ect ect. It's because they might not quite be what the numbers make them look to be and they're a high at risk to flop in the big boy game if they aren't. In the NFL, that really doesn't matter. This is it. The end. Guys here don't make it unless they shredded through college or have elite level physical skills...usually it's a combination of both. The only thing that matters in wins and losses and whether or not a guy can put you in a position to be get more of the former.

Coaches have jobs for a reason as well. It's not just the players. It's their job to put guys in the best position have success, not necessarily statistically digestible or friendly success, but usually that comes with the territory. Stats will never, ever tell the entire story. If GM's judged players by boxscores, we would have a lot more bad football than we already do. They're not balanced metric. Guess what? They never will be. Tom Brady attempted 578 passes last year. A majority of them came in the shotgun. We don't have a legitimate running back. Maroney is really, really soft. He's garbage when he doesn't have a wide open hole. He cuts well, but he cuts into traffic and puts himself in a position to take big hits. Every single one of those passes was attempted in order to win a football game, not to mask any kind of deficiency, other than our inept running game.

It's not like he's not making a read. In a college spread offense, like Texas Tech, they make almost zero reads whatsoever. Most of it is determined at the snap. Brady is the absolute best in the league at dissecting a defense, reading coverages. It's not like he was throwing underneath every play. We had Welker to do that. That's only smart. If you have the best slot receiver in the game, you damn well better play up to his strength. Same goes with Moss. His strength happened to be the deep ball, the first time in appeared in our offense. While our receivers were good last year, it still ultimately came down to Brady making reads. A lot of the time, that was on screen passes and dumpoffs...but guess what? It works. It's working at the highest level of competitive football that exists. If we were doing anything else, it wouldn't be catering to the strengths of our offense. That's probably what this all comes down to; Player X would be better in offense Y, or Player Y wouldn't be what he was with team X. Guess what? That's probably true. If we were suddenly to have some kind of freaky, ******** mass quarterback swap, everybody would look different. Some guys would look better, some guys would look worse. You put oldschool Daunte Culpepper in our offense, and he doesn't quite touch Brady, but he puts up numbers similar to him. That's it though. It's just numbers ultimately. Tom Brady is an elite, elite, elite NFL quarterback. He hasn't done a thing to contradict that statement. All this fantasy football stuff is what it is. If you talk to any team in the NFL, there's probably only a few of them secure enough in their situations to say they wouldn't want him playing for them...and that has more to do with team chemistry and not trying to reinvent something that is already working.

There's only one guy who you can say might be legitimately better than Brady. There's no way around it. There's probably never going to be a satisfying conclusion to that argument either, and ultimately it's just leading to pecking at every little detail and fans trying to take away from just how great those two guys are....and it's really kind of depressing as a fan of the game. Saying stuff like if Cassel goes somewhere else and doesn't look as good as he does in our offense then Brady is a flop is just...gah. I don't even know how to digest that. Of course our offense has something to do with it. There's no doubt our coaching had something to do with it as well, but situations are just as big of a factor as a guys talent. Look at all the busts we have at the quarterback position. With them, you'll most likely find a poor supporting cast and poor coaching. Conversely, the same can be said for successful quarterbacks. If Matt Cassel flops, which I think he will, he's a bad quarterback. He's not a franchise guy who can get you to a Super Bowl. He's not even a guy who can make a defense pay when they blow a coverage. He is what he is. An average NFL quarterback, and a compelling story, throwing to good receivers and making them play down to his level. Tom Brady is an entirely different player.
This is a pretty long article so maybe i missed it.. but was there a point made? I don't think i found a position or an argument in there. Mayyybe you were saying you don't like how there can even be discussion on something like that, and if thats the case my response would be that things have been discussed that are far less important and far more stupid and this topic of conversation doesnt quite fit that mold in my eyes. If your point was that taking any type of bold stance in this argument is outlandish because it should all be conjecture and theory then i agree, but i just said that in one sentence.

Don't mean to be an ass here, there are a bunch of legitimate points made... although you counter them often in the next sentence.. I'd just like to point out its 'lame' just to call everyone else lame for discussing football on a football forum.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Average OT LB View Post
This is a pretty long article so maybe i missed it.. but was there a point made? I don't think i found a position or an argument in there. Mayyybe you were saying you don't like how there can even be discussion on something like that, and if thats the case my response would be that things have been discussed that are far less important and far more stupid and this topic of conversation doesnt quite fit that mold in my eyes. If your point was that taking any type of bold stance in this argument is outlandish because it should all be conjecture and theory then i agree, but i just said that in one sentence.

Don't mean to be an ass here, there are a bunch of legitimate points made... although you counter them often in the next sentence.. I'd just like to point out its 'lame' just to call everyone else lame for discussing football on a football forum.
I believe hes saying that when people compare players they tend to dissect every little aspect between players, use anything to try and prove ones better than the other including anything to make the other look bad...use only stats at times...and use way too many hypotheticals and unknowables...in a nutshell....
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Are you aware that I wear a Justin Morneau jersey under my Flames jersey when I play.
You need to teach him how to knock white sox/Detroit players out.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:17 AM    (permalink
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You need to teach him how to knock white sox/Detroit players out.
Yeah, teach him how to get suspended for long periods of time. That would be excellent. Make sure it's Miguel Cabrera that he goes after with the neck shot though.
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Old 11-23-2008, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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nice game today. looks to get a little more comfortable every week
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Old 11-23-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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haha Matt did well today, however lets see how well he does without Light in against a Pitts defense. That will be a test.
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Old 11-23-2008, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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haha Matt did well today, however lets see how well he does without Light in against a Pitts defense. That will be a test.
I think Pitt steamrolls them by at least 21
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