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Old 12-11-2008, 01:53 PM    (permalink
Paranoidmoonduck
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Originally Posted by giantsfan View Post
We're talking about elite players and you haven't proven at all that peppers is clearly better. Tuck is certainly on par with peppers this season.
I'm not trying to prove Peppers is clearly better than anyone. I'm attempting to refute your position that Tuck is clearly better than Peppers. Peppers is arguably the best bull rushing defensive lineman of the past half decade in the NFL, and while people have gotten quite enamored of Tuck, Peppers has been just as (if not more) disruptive for considerably longer.
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Old 12-11-2008, 03:40 PM    (permalink
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Tuck and Peppers are linebackers?!?

So is it just me, or has Lofa Tatupu been less then stellar this past season? Any Seahawks fans care to express their rankings of their LB'ers? Explain the decline in the play of the defense?

How about the sad sight of seeing Junior Seau coming back and getting embarrassed? He is one of my all-timers (even though he went to the Pats) and it hurts to see him come back and instantly put to shame by Branch.

How do people feel about Mitchell (Bills LB)?

How do people compare Derrick Johnson vs DJ Williams vs Michael Boley?

Will AJ Hawk ever live up to the hype? He seemed to have it all coming out, but have been a solid but not spectacular player for the Packers. He isn't making impact plays, and is generally referred to as a 'potential to be real good' guy, even though he was considered a extremely safe pick and probably Pro Bowler. I know he is young and could make a Pro Bowl and even be a regular, but how do people feel about his development and where they thought he would be. Some said MLB is his place to be, but will he be there when Barnett is back? Has he done anything to justify staying there?


Just throwing out some LB stuff to get this off just a Tuck vs Peppers debate.
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Old 12-11-2008, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Great Jonathan Vilma View Post
Tuck and Peppers are linebackers?!?

So is it just me, or has Lofa Tatupu been less then stellar this past season? Any Seahawks fans care to express their rankings of their LB'ers? Explain the decline in the play of the defense?

How about the sad sight of seeing Junior Seau coming back and getting embarrassed? He is one of my all-timers (even though he went to the Pats) and it hurts to see him come back and instantly put to shame by Branch.

How do people feel about Mitchell (Bills LB)?

How do people compare Derrick Johnson vs DJ Williams vs Michael Boley?

Will AJ Hawk ever live up to the hype? He seemed to have it all coming out, but have been a solid but not spectacular player for the Packers. He isn't making impact plays, and is generally referred to as a 'potential to be real good' guy, even though he was considered a extremely safe pick and probably Pro Bowler. I know he is young and could make a Pro Bowl and even be a regular, but how do people feel about his development and where they thought he would be. Some said MLB is his place to be, but will he be there when Barnett is back? Has he done anything to justify staying there?


Just throwing out some LB stuff to get this off just a Tuck vs Peppers debate.
Lofa's been playing with injuries all year. He had the cast on his right hand for like 6 weeks, the concussion, goin injury etc. The past 2 weeks or so Lofa's been playing very well actually. He's starting to look like he's "100%" again. Julian Peterson is just showing signs of him aging.

I think the real reason the defense has been so mediorce is based on the lack of pass rush (no Kerney) and our weak secondary (minus Trufant and Grant.)

On Seau, Yeah it hurt watching him out there but it was his first game since the superbowl. You can't forget about Carlson showing him up pretty badly to.
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too bad the Sea hawks are starting Hasselback and not Whitehorsest (sp)They are gonna loose any ways .

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Old 12-11-2008, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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Did you see Pep play on monday night. He kept Garcia from scrambling for a TD, he got 1.5 sacks both times on 3rd down keeping TB out of field goal range and blocked an extra point.

There's not a defensive end in the NFL who at this point in time does the things Peppers does.

Donald Penn was handling Peppers the whole night, it was only against Trueblood that he was able to get stuff going, and Trueblood is worse than a pylon.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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I'm not trying to prove Peppers is clearly better than anyone. I'm attempting to refute your position that Tuck is clearly better than Peppers. Peppers is arguably the best bull rushing defensive lineman of the past half decade in the NFL, and while people have gotten quite enamored of Tuck, Peppers has been just as (if not more) disruptive for considerably longer.
I don't believe tuck is clearly better than anyone in the top 5-10, I just thought it amusing that peppers' coverage as a DE is somehow a factor at making him the best DE in the league. The notion that he does things most DEs aren't asked to do to regularly makes him somehow better as a DE was just amusing and I felt like hassling the panthers homers about it.

Anyways Osi Umenyiora is still a better and more productive Defensive End than Julius Peppers.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Anyways Osi Umenyiora is still a better and more productive Defensive End than Julius Peppers.
As an pass rusher, absolutely. Second best sack per start ratio in the NFL last time I checked.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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As an pass rusher, absolutely. Second best sack per start ratio in the NFL last time I checked.
Osi's also a good run defender, I understand Peppers is great as a run stuffer but osi's run stuffing is by no means a weakness.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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Donald Penn was handling Peppers the whole night, it was only against Trueblood that he was able to get stuff going, and Trueblood is worse than a pylon.
Well Peppers got half a sack against Penn and he got his full sack against Trueblood... So he beat both your tackles. Penn didn't exactly "handle" him any way he got a bunch of hurries and flushed Garcia from the pocket more than once.

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I don't believe tuck is clearly better than anyone in the top 5-10, I just thought it amusing that peppers' coverage as a DE is somehow a factor at making him the best DE in the league. The notion that he does things most DEs aren't asked to do to regularly makes him somehow better as a DE was just amusing and I felt like hassling the panthers homers about it.

Anyways Osi Umenyiora is still a better and more productive Defensive End than Julius Peppers.
How is a player taking away a passing lane and in more than one game situation preventing a first down and a touchdown not a factor in whether or not a player is a good one?

I really don't know where this idea that he can't rush on the interior comes from either, since he's did it twice against Tampa and got a couple of sacks doing it earlier in the year. He's not used doing it that often because we don't exactly have a fountain of defensive ends and Carolina's DTs do fine, but whatever. You seem intent on hugging Tuck's nuts while calling anyone who says a player is better a homer.

Oh and as for the Osi is better, Peppers has more sacks, tackles, PDef, INT's blocked field goals and FF than Osi in his first five years. If Peppers gets two more sacks he'll have the same best career year sack total.

Osi is a great player, but saying he's better than Peppers is pretty baseless.


Oh and I really don't care if you call me a homer, I got that reputation for arguing with people who said that Carolina wouldn't make the playoffs and for saying DeAngelo Williams would have a break out year and Peppers would bounce back.

I was right on all three counts. The name seems to stick. Doesn't really bother me, I'm right about nearly everything I've predicted for the Panthers anyway. OMG what a homer, his predictions come true.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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How is a player taking away a passing lane and in more than one game situation preventing a first down and a touchdown not a factor in whether or not a player is a good one?

I really don't know where this idea that he can't rush on the interior comes from either, since he's did it twice against Tampa and got a couple of sacks doing it earlier in the year. He's not used doing it that often because we don't exactly have a fountain of defensive ends and Carolina's DTs do fine, but whatever. You seem intent on hugging Tuck's nuts while calling anyone who says a player is better a homer.

Oh and as for the Osi is better, Peppers has more sacks, tackles, PDef, INT's blocked field goals and FF than Osi in his first five years. If Peppers gets two more sacks he'll have the same best career year sack total.

Osi is a great player, but saying he's better than Peppers is pretty baseless.


Oh and I really don't care if you call me a homer, I got that reputation for arguing with people who said that Carolina wouldn't make the playoffs and for saying DeAngelo Williams would have a break out year and Peppers would bounce back.

I was right on all three counts. The name seems to stick. Doesn't really bother me, I'm right about nearly everything I've predicted for the Panthers anyway. OMG what a homer, his predictions come true.
It shouldn't be a factor because realistically no DEs drop back more than a handful of plays a game and many defensive ends are successful the few times they drop back, thus peppers having successfully done so once, as you seem to constantly refer to the same play when discussing this, is an atrocious explanation for why he should be dubbed the best DE in the league when he has clearly not separated himself from the cluster f at the top of that position.

I'm not the one claiming tuck doing things no other DE in the league can because on a handful of snaps he's able to have an impact in coverage and is having a good season against the run and pass. So I'm pretty sure you saying that anyone is on anyone else's nuts is a great example of the pot calling the kettle black.

As for osi good job comparing the stats of a top pick who's started since his rookie to a second rounder who didn't even get a shot at cracking the starting lineup his first two years, really bravo, if Peppers didn't have better stats it'd be an embarrassment considering he saw a ton more snaps his first 5 years and had a better supporting cast. Honestly saying that osi is better and more productive than peppers is far less baseless than saying "There's not a defensive end in the NFL who at this point in time does the things Peppers does."

As for your last paragraph, do you want a cookie? You had optimism for your team and they came through, does this somehow prove that you have super skills at projecting the NFL?
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Why does every defensive thread have to turn into Peppers vs Osi?
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Why does every defensive thread have to turn into Peppers vs Osi?
Panthers fan comes in saying peppers is the best thing since sliced bread ==> giants fan tries to point out that peppers is just one of the elite DEs in the league ==> panthers fan begins to argue without actually making an argument ==> giants fan mockingly brings up Osi is a better and more productive DE than peppers to annoy panthers fan and prove point that peppers is not the best DE in the league, he's got a case but so do a lot of other guys who panthers fans and other people enamored by freakishness seem to ignore.
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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Panthers fan comes in saying peppers is the best thing since sliced bread ==> giants fan tries to point out that peppers is just one of the elite DEs in the league ==> panthers fan begins to argue without actually making an argument ==> giants fan mockingly brings up Osi is a better and more productive DE than peppers to annoy panthers fan and prove point that peppers is not the best DE in the league, he's got a case but so do a lot of other guys who panthers fans and other people enamored by freakishness seem to ignore.
Your arguments are fine and all but this is a thread about linebackers not DE's ;)
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too bad the Sea hawks are starting Hasselback and not Whitehorsest (sp)They are gonna loose any ways .
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:29 PM    (permalink
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Why does every defensive thread have to turn into Peppers vs Osi?
agreed, i think i've seen this once or twice before.


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Panthers fan comes in saying peppers is the best thing since sliced bread ==> giants fan tries to point out that peppers is just one of the elite DEs in the league ==> panthers fan begins to argue without actually making an argument ==> giants fan mockingly brings up Osi is a better and more productive DE than peppers to annoy panthers fan and prove point that peppers is not the best DE in the league, he's got a case but so do a lot of other guys who panthers fans and other people enamored by freakishness seem to ignore.
Yes, and the Panther's fan is the sole reason for this debate, even though a Giants fan brings up Tuck, and then Osi, but ya, lets just say it is the Panthers guy.....don't try to toss blame, you are an equal part of the debate that is going no where.


I tried to throw it back on the LB topic before, but only one person responds and then the TWO individuals decide to continue the usual Peppers vs Giants DE debate. Might as well make a thread for it, i'm sure it would get a few hundred hits every season.....could have gone well with the Hall vs Newman CB thread before one got traded and the other started being an injury waiting to happen.

Anyone care to respond to the LB related questions i mentioned earlier?
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You can't be a good corner if no one throws your way. Thats my way of seeing it.
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:44 AM    (permalink
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agreed, i think i've seen this once or twice before.




Yes, and the Panther's fan is the sole reason for this debate, even though a Giants fan brings up Tuck, and then Osi, but ya, lets just say it is the Panthers guy.....don't try to toss blame, you are an equal part of the debate that is going no where.


I tried to throw it back on the LB topic before, but only one person responds and then the TWO individuals decide to continue the usual Peppers vs Giants DE debate. Might as well make a thread for it, i'm sure it would get a few hundred hits every season.....could have gone well with the Hall vs Newman CB thread before one got traded and the other started being an injury waiting to happen.

Anyone care to respond to the LB related questions i mentioned earlier?
I did. I'll just quote myself real quick lol.

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Lofa's been playing with injuries all year. He had the cast on his right hand for like 6 weeks, the concussion, goin injury etc. The past 2 weeks or so Lofa's been playing very well actually. He's starting to look like he's "100%" again. Julian Peterson is just showing signs of him aging.

I think the real reason the defense has been so mediorce is based on the lack of pass rush (no Kerney) and our weak secondary (minus Trufant and Grant.)

On Seau, Yeah it hurt watching him out there but it was his first game since the superbowl. You can't forget about Carlson showing him up pretty badly to.
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too bad the Sea hawks are starting Hasselback and not Whitehorsest (sp)They are gonna loose any ways .
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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Tuck and Peppers are linebackers?!?

So is it just me, or has Lofa Tatupu been less then stellar this past season? Any Seahawks fans care to express their rankings of their LB'ers? Explain the decline in the play of the defense?

How about the sad sight of seeing Junior Seau coming back and getting embarrassed? He is one of my all-timers (even though he went to the Pats) and it hurts to see him come back and instantly put to shame by Branch.

How do people feel about Mitchell (Bills LB)?

How do people compare Derrick Johnson vs DJ Williams vs Michael Boley?
Will AJ Hawk ever live up to the hype? He seemed to have it all coming out, but have been a solid but not spectacular player for the Packers. He isn't making impact plays, and is generally referred to as a 'potential to be real good' guy, even though he was considered a extremely safe pick and probably Pro Bowler. I know he is young and could make a Pro Bowl and even be a regular, but how do people feel about his development and where they thought he would be. Some said MLB is his place to be, but will he be there when Barnett is back? Has he done anything to justify staying there?


Just throwing out some LB stuff to get this off just a Tuck vs Peppers debate.
ive seen quite a bit of Johnson the last couple years and mroe then a bit of Dj not alot of bloey although i liked Derrick alot more from his College days id say Dj williams is better, johnson gets black waaaaaayy 2 easily and isn't phisical at all even tho he is a good LB
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:47 PM    (permalink
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ive seen quite a bit of Johnson the last couple years and mroe then a bit of Dj not alot of bloey although i liked Derrick alot more from his College days id say Dj williams is better, johnson gets black waaaaaayy 2 easily and isn't phisical at all even tho he is a good LB
Uhh, what?
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:57 PM    (permalink
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Uhh, what?

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Old 12-14-2008, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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Against tampa peppers was silent except for like 2 plays against a bad o linemen.
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Old 12-14-2008, 08:24 PM    (permalink
vikes_28
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chad greenway will be. give him another year.
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Old 12-14-2008, 10:45 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, Greenway has been excellent this year. Really good to see, I liked him coming out of Iowa, and when he got hurt to start his rookie year you just hoped that it wouldn't be the last we saw of him.
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Old 12-14-2008, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by The Great Jonathan Vilma View Post

So is it just me, or has Lofa Tatupu been less then stellar this past season? Any Seahawks fans care to express their rankings of their LB'ers? Explain the decline in the play of the defense?

Yeah eh hasnt played great this season. But really the entire team sucks so bad this year I just cant criticize Lofa. Being that bad has been a team effort, from the front office to the lame duck coaching staff to the players. Theres been TONS of injuries. Lofa, Trufant and Kerney playing with casts for half the year, Kerney is on IR now, all 5 starters on the OL are now injured (Locklear broke his toe on the last play today), Hasselbeck has been in and out of the lineup with back problems, at one point we were down to I believe our 7th WR. Its just been a ridiculous season. The only real bright spot I can point to is John Carlson, I believe he just set the Seahawks single season record for receiving yards by a TE today.
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Old 12-15-2008, 07:25 PM    (permalink
steelersfan43
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Against tampa peppers was silent except for like 2 plays against a bad o linemen.

[quote]He registered 1.5 sacks beating both tackles and prevented a touchdown AND blocked a PAT you're ********.[/QUOTE]
^^ Blindsite

I watched the entire game and watched him every play and he was handled the whole game except 2 plays. He got barely any penetration and couldnt get off blocks against the run.

No need to get angry, this is the internet.
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:30 PM    (permalink
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Okay, I understand this is a defensive thread, but it's a linebacker thread first and formost, so please take defensive end arguments some where else.

I would like to keep LB discussion only in this thread, so please don't hijack the thread with position arguments that don't in any way have anything in common with LB's.
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Old 12-15-2008, 11:51 PM    (permalink
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With that said, I'm going to write down my personal favorites, not exactly the best , but my favorites to watch.


MLB (4-3):

1. Patrick Willis- I love this line backer, he does everything right, and really, is there a faster more athletic MLB in the NFL right now? He has the ultimate sideline to sideline ability, the strength to be powerful at the point of attack and the ability to chase plays down from behind. I love Willis. He is though, this year, being ran at much more, but his mentality and experience are catching up with his instincts and physical ability. Willis has become the gold standard for the position in the future when scouting and projecting middle line backers in the NFL. Willis has snatched the crown from Urlacher and Lewis and he wears it proud. It's scary to think that he plays on a piss poor defense, I can only imagine what kind of numbers he could talley on an elite defensive squad.

2. Kirk Morrison- He is more of an unknown under rated player simply for the reason that he plays for the struggling Raiders. But if your a AFC West team's fan then you know Morrison and I bet that if your a Charger, Bronco or Chief fan then you probably can't stand the dude. He is the perfect example of a player being over scouted and his production being over looked due to lack of competition in college. Remeber, Morrison, who is now one of the best MLB was picked after his counter part, Matt McCoy, who went to the Eagles in the 2nd round of the 2005 NFL Draft while Kirk Morrison went to the Raiders in the 3rd. Morrison is a monster and I can't say enough about him. It's a shame that he and Thomas Howard are all alone in the front seven. Had Morrison had a legit run stuffing/ pocket collapsing DT in fron tof him can you imagine how much more he would produce? He is the ultimate leader and has been the man on that defense since his rookie year and has yet to give it up.

3. Brian Urlacher- I know Urlacher has his detractors, but you have to admit, he is one of the best line backers of the past decade and he will in no doubt become a first ballot Hall of Fame inductee whe his time comes. There isn't a better middle line backer in coverage and for his size he has one of the best size to speed ratio's ever for his position. Urlacher is the pinnacle of instincts and diagnosing plays before they happen. Urlacher has that uncanney ability to be a game changing player on any given play. Urlacher also has that leadership that you only get if your born with it. He is a natural leader that not only leads by word, but by example. If it hadn't been for Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher would have been the best MLB in the last 25 years. He has sideline to sideline speed, he has outstanding coverage abilities, he has the explosion to get off the ball and into the back fied for a sack, he has the instincts that rival the greats, his passion for the game is unmatched and he has always been a loyal and team guy from the day he was drafted. And even now, getting into his late 20's, when the MLB are supposed to hit their down cycle, Urlacher still seems to be in his prime and still is the major driving force behind that Bears defense. Urlacher, to me, is one of the funnest players to watch live. He just makes you love football when you watch him play.

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Old 12-21-2008, 01:42 AM    (permalink
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Not to be nit-picky... but the original list had damn near 30 ilb's on either the top lists or honorable mentions.
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