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Old 12-08-2008, 06:51 PM    (permalink
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Default NY Giants Collapse Ahead?

I know this is crazy for me to say. The Giants are arguably the best team in the NFL, especially if you believe all the media pundits. ...and I'm not a Giants hater or anything so don't take it as that. But just by an outside hunch and sideline observation, I think the Giants might have reached a turning point to their season and the team that we once knew as a mighty champ, might be on the verge of a downward spiral.

I think things have finally caught up to them. For several reasons...

1a. It's a numbers thing. The loss of Plax is just one guy, just another number off the roster... you might think the Giants can get by this one... but I think it's a bigger deal than what most people think. Mark it down in the growing count under the column "Players Lost from the SB season". Strahan retired. Shockey moved on. Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor, Gibril Wilson left for greener pastures. Osi was lost in the preseason. Tyree and Olivera got put on IR. ...and the guys expected to fill in have not come to full rescue. Kevin Boss was supposed to have a breakout season. Sammy Knight was supposed to fill in for Gibril Wilson. Danny Clark was supposed to fill in at SLB but draft talk is already being discussed at that position. Goff was also lost so that draft pick wasn't able to shore up any rescue there. Tyree's impact wasn't supposed to be huge, but most thought Manningham and Moss would have developed quick enough and they haven't. ...and we haven't seen the same Steve Smith that lit up the playoffs to be quite honest. Aaron Ross has been banged up. Now Brandon Jacobs hobbling off the field yesterday just compounds the situation exponentially. These are key players that can't just be substituted easily and people can expect things to be the same. The Giants have prepared well to be a team that's not dependent on any one guy and I admire that. But when the list starts to get that long, no team can overcome that for the long haul.

1b. No Plax, No gas. Now true, the Giants have won without Plax. But I don't think that's tells the real story. I think that was a mirage. You won a game here and there without him. However, I don't think the Giants can sustain winning over a long period of time without him. This is the number that puts the situation over the top. This is the threashold. The leaky drops have turned into a down right down pour. He's too much of a key relieable target for Eli... especially in the red zone... and especially when Eli needed a big play. Without that threat, the Giants offensive attack is not balanced. I think we saw that yesterday. I think Eli hit it on the head in his post game interview. They couldn't get the key play that is normally there for them. Without Plax defenses don't have to send double coverage in his direction. They can play the Giants honestly and not be afraid. Hixon is a promising player, but even Giants fans have to admit that he does not bring to the table the same thing Plax did. None of the remaining healthy receivers do. His loss allowed a finesse Philly defense to hold the Giants at 88 yards rushing.

3. Media distractions. They're baaaaaaaack. The once quiet NY media is now all a fuss over this whole Plax story. Ask Antonio Peirce if Plax's situation hasn't affected him? Wait.. you might not be able to... he's in the middle of talking with investigators and detectives... It's poured out onto the rest of the team. Now they have to deal with every question that comes their way regarding it. They can't just think and focus about the next game. It's become an untimely bothersome distraction.

4. The Eagles just wrote the book on how to beat the Giants. The story has yet to be told, but let's be real, that game was at home for the Giants and they should've beaten this lowly Eagles who now all of a sudden are now back in the race! The way Brian Westbrook dismantled the Giants D was impressive. The way the Philly D contained the Giants O also sent a big message. The blue print is out there.... just at the wrong time for the Giants. Wanna know how bad it is in Giantsland? They clinched the NFC East Title and it doesn't even feel good.

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Old 12-09-2008, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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Wow their is a lot to go over there. Briefly their are a lot of mistakes in 1A so give me a day and then I'll come back to this. I do think we beat you guys on Sunday.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:30 AM    (permalink
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The Eagles did nothing of the sort. Bengals, second half of the Skins game, and Browns game did that. The blue print was there but no one could do it. The Eagles did a good job with their week and a half to prepare, just like the Browns did with 2 weeks. But in football finding a blue print isn't that hard to do. We used the Ravens, Browns, and Eagles game from last year to beat the Pats.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
I know this is crazy for me to say. The Giants are arguably the best team in the NFL, especially if you believe all the media pundits. ...and I'm not a Giants hater or anything so don't take it as that. But just by an outside hunch and sideline observation, I think the Giants might have reached a turning point to their season and the team that we once knew as a mighty champ, might be on the verge of a downward spiral.

I think things have finally caught up to them. For several reasons...

1a. It's a numbers thing. The loss of Plax is just one guy, just another number off the roster... you might think the Giants can get by this one... but I think it's a bigger deal than what most people think. Mark it down in the growing count under the column "Players Lost from the SB season". Strahan retired. Shockey moved on. Kawika Mitchell, Reggie Torbor, Gibril Wilson left for greener pastures. Osi was lost in the preseason. Tyree and Olivera got put on IR. ...and the guys expected to fill in have not come to full rescue. Kevin Boss was supposed to have a breakout season. Sammy Knight was supposed to fill in for Gibril Wilson. Danny Clark was supposed to fill in at SLB but draft talk is already being discussed at that position. Goff was also lost so that draft pick wasn't able to shore up any rescue there. Tyree's impact wasn't supposed to be huge, but most thought Manningham and Moss would have developed quick enough and they haven't. ...and we haven't seen the same Steve Smith that lit up the playoffs to be quite honest. Aaron Ross has been banged up. Now Brandon Jacobs hobbling off the field yesterday just compounds the situation exponentially. These are key players that can't just be substituted easily and people can expect things to be the same. The Giants have prepared well to be a team that's not dependent on any one guy and I admire that. But when the list starts to get that long, no team can overcome that for the long haul.
I'll just start with 1A as well. A lot of those guys who left were extremely expendable. The only one I wish we still had is Wilson. Mitchell has played well in Buffalo, but he is very average. Shane Olivea was not on the team last year and was in camp with us for about a week. If he made the team, he was going to be one of the last guys to do so. Kevin Boss is playing pretty damn well. I don't know what you expected as far as a breakout, but I've got no problems with Boss. We have draft talk at the SLB position because Danny Clark signed a one year contract. We might have to find another two down linebacker next year. That is correct. Goff was lost? He was a fifth round draft pick, he has tons of time to develop. He may or he may not, but he is depth at this point. No one was counting on Moss or Manningham. Most wanted Moss cut and Manningham is a rookie. Our first two draft picks are playing quite well.

We have seen the same Steve Smith that lit up the playoffs. I don't know what you are watching. He just isn't a fantasy player, so some people mistake that for not playing well. He is still doing exactly what he did in the playoffs.
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Old 12-09-2008, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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The Giants need to win one more game to guarantee themselves a first round bye, pretty good.

And Carolina's remaining schedule isn't a cakewalk either I heard, so we'll see if Big Blue potentially loses its season-long grasp of the first overall seed in the NFC.

Now what is interesting is wondering how much homefield advantage actually helps the Giants, I suppose.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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I'll just start with 1A as well. A lot of those guys who left were extremely expendable. The only one I wish we still had is Wilson. Mitchell has played well in Buffalo, but he is very average. Shane Olivea was not on the team last year and was in camp with us for about a week. If he made the team, he was going to be one of the last guys to do so. Kevin Boss is playing pretty damn well. I don't know what you expected as far as a breakout, but I've got no problems with Boss. We have draft talk at the SLB position because Danny Clark signed a one year contract. We might have to find another two down linebacker next year. That is correct. Goff was lost? He was a fifth round draft pick, he has tons of time to develop. He may or he may not, but he is depth at this point. No one was counting on Moss or Manningham. Most wanted Moss cut and Manningham is a rookie. Our first two draft picks are playing quite well.

We have seen the same Steve Smith that lit up the playoffs. I don't know what you are watching. He just isn't a fantasy player, so some people mistake that for not playing well. He is still doing exactly what he did in the playoffs.
Thanks for the corrections. I understand those guys I mentioned were expendable, but you still needed to replace them and I don't think the replacements came through. Like I said... Sammy Knight hit the IR... Danny Clark... well there's a reason why you're talking draft instead of contract extension... Kevin Boss is playing alright, but he's not the weapon or threat that Shockey was... he honestly doesn't scare anyone like Shockey used to... although that said, Shockey doesn't scare anyone else these days either... bottomline, you lost something there now that your TE doesn't keep Defensive Coordinators up at night... People want Moss cut because like I said, he hasn't developed fast enough... I agree the jury is still out on Manningham... but his number might be called sooner rather than later... Steve Smith played a big impact as a rookie... and you're right, he's still doing about the same as he did in the playoffs... I guess I expected him to be one of the bigger beneficiaries of Eli's targets now that Shockey left... he was another breakout candidate who has basically stayed in neutral, imo... solid player, don't get me wrong.

Still, I think you've lost too many numbers... whether they be starters or depth guys.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Thanks for the corrections. I understand those guys I mentioned were expendable, but you still needed to replace them and I don't think the replacements came through. Like I said... Sammy Knight hit the IR... Danny Clark... well there's a reason why you're talking draft instead of contract extension... Kevin Boss is playing alright, but he's not the weapon or threat that Shockey was... he honestly doesn't scare anyone like Shockey used to... although that said, Shockey doesn't scare anyone else these days either... bottomline, you lost something there now that your TE doesn't keep Defensive Coordinators up at night... People want Moss cut because like I said, he hasn't developed fast enough... I agree the jury is still out on Manningham... but his number might be called sooner rather than later... Steve Smith played a big impact as a rookie... and you're right, he's still doing about the same as he did in the playoffs... I guess I expected him to be one of the bigger beneficiaries of Eli's targets now that Shockey left... he was another breakout candidate who has basically stayed in neutral, imo... solid player, don't get me wrong.

Still, I think you've lost too many numbers... whether they be starters or depth guys.
Sammy Knight never played for us. He was a special team guy, when he was active. Which wasn't always. As for Clark the reason we are talking draft instead of contract extension is his age. When we signed him, I think we all pretty much knew it was just a one year thing. Maybe we bring him back on another one year deal? But there is no reason to sign him long term.

I don't think we've lost too many numbers at all. Minus Plax this is the same team we've had all season. And we've done pretty well so far.
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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Excellent points. So, your Cowboys should have no problems next Sunday night, right?
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Old 12-09-2008, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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Giants better not falter, they have to beat the vikings
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Old 12-09-2008, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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You make good points, but I'm chalking up last sunday's game to a lack of focus and possible over confidence. I think that Tom Coughlin well straighten the team out and they'll regain focus. The one point that you made though that struck me the most was about them not having Plax. I think come playoff time, if a team can shut down that running game (though a tough task) I think the loss of a bigtime target like Plax will really hurt them. I know Steve Smith and Hixon have been big contributors, but to me, they need a big redzone target receiver. Other than that, I think the team will be fine. They've had most of the current team the whole year. I think they'll stay focused and ignore the media distractions. And as for the Eagles, Jim Johnson is a helluva D- Coordinator, really only Dick LeBeau and Monte Kiffin come to mind as other coordinators that could gameplan to beat the Giants. And LeBeau (although costly turnovers doomed Pitt more than anything) already lost to the giants.
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Old 12-09-2008, 03:06 PM    (permalink
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not to take anything away from the eagles, who played very well, but the giants looked absolutely lost on offense.


they were dropping passes left and right, recievers were running the wrong routes, they never seemed to try and establish thier running game as well as in the past, ect. i think you would have to see another game when they look that bad, both offensively and defensively (they couldnt stop philly on 3rd down, its unlikely a team can perform that well on 3rd down consistently).
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Excellent points. So, your Cowboys should have no problems next Sunday night, right?
I have a strong hunch that the Giants will lose. That's all this post is. A hunch that the Giants are going to tailspin and some reasons why I think so. Doesn't mean it's going to come true. Just stating what I see/feel.
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Old 12-09-2008, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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not to take anything away from the eagles, who played very well, but the giants looked absolutely lost on offense.


they were dropping passes left and right, recievers were running the wrong routes, they never seemed to try and establish thier running game as well as in the past, ect. i think you would have to see another game when they look that bad, both offensively and defensively (they couldnt stop philly on 3rd down, its unlikely a team can perform that well on 3rd down consistently).
Yeah, that could be it. A loss is not enough to say they're doomed already. I am saying though, that I think the tailspin has already begun and more can be expected. I don't think they'll go undefeated the rest of the regular season as many still think.
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Old 12-09-2008, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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I have a strong hunch that the Giants will lose. That's all this post is. A hunch that the Giants are going to tailspin and some reasons why I think so. Doesn't mean it's going to come true. Just stating what I see/feel.
I see/feel that after the demoralizing loss in Pittsburgh, the Cowboys are going to go into an even bigger tailspin.

Giants - Little tailspin
Cowboys - Big tailspin

Giants win. lol.
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Old 12-09-2008, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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I see/feel that after the demoralizing loss in Pittsburgh, the Cowboys are going to go into an even bigger tailspin.

Giants - Little tailspin
Cowboys - Big tailspin

Giants win. lol.
You need to improve your sarcasm. The loss was tough because we were so close to beating them... but hardly demoralizing as you'd like to "see/feel". Not like they couldn't hang with the 10-3 Steelers. I find it funny... when the Cowboys win in convincing fashion over the 9ers and Seahawks, it's thought of as expected... yet when the NY Jets lose to the 9ers and NE Patriots barely beat the Seahawks no one says a thing. Interesting, ain't it.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:16 PM    (permalink
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The last three times the Giants have lost they have rebounded very well. Take it back to last year, the last loss was against the Patriots in the regular season. We had the momentum going into the playoffs, and from there it's history. Our first loss this season was against Cleveland, after that they returned to their normal ways of running the football, getting consistent pass rush, and continuing to beat their opponents physically and on the board.

They lost to philly last week, and you can say many reasons why they lost, most will say because they weren't focused. I was actually hoping that at some point they would lose, just a game to bring them back to earth and to pick up some momentum going into the playoffs. However, it was sooner than I had expected it to be.

I'm not saying that the Giants will destroy the Cowboys or anything like that, in fact I'm worried that they are traveling to Dallas to play them. I think that we can expect a better performance on both sides of the ball this week from the Giants.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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The last three times the Giants have lost they have rebounded very well. Take it back to last year, the last loss was against the Patriots in the regular season. We had the momentum going into the playoffs, and from there it's history. Our first loss this season was against Cleveland, after that they returned to their normal ways of running the football, getting consistent pass rush, and continuing to beat their opponents physically and on the board.

They lost to philly last week, and you can say many reasons why they lost, most will say because they weren't focused. I was actually hoping that at some point they would lose, just a game to bring them back to earth and to pick up some momentum going into the playoffs. However, it was sooner than I had expected it to be.

But that does serve cause for hope. Maybe things will continue. I have my doubts all things considered though.
I'm not saying that the Giants will destroy the Cowboys or anything like that, in fact I'm worried that they are traveling to Dallas to play them. I think that we can expect a better performance on both sides of the ball this week from the Giants.
I don't think history is ever a really good indicator. So many variables are different.
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Old 12-09-2008, 07:41 PM    (permalink
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You need to improve your sarcasm. The loss was tough because we were so close to beating them... but hardly demoralizing as you'd like to "see/feel". Not like they couldn't hang with the 10-3 Steelers. I find it funny... when the Cowboys win in convincing fashion over the 9ers and Seahawks, it's thought of as expected... yet when the NY Jets lose to the 9ers and NE Patriots barely beat the Seahawks no one says a thing. Interesting, ain't it.
Cowboys come off an epic joke job, and the Cowboys fans start predicting a tailspin for the Giants. One can dream, I suppose.

I mean, yeah, the Giants lost. But, they were long overdue for a loss. A letdown was bound to happen sometime. You can't win 'em all. The Giants just didn't match the intensity of the Eagles, simple as that. That doesn't mean that the Giants are suddenly a bad team. They are still the team they were a week prior to that. A fundamentaly sound team that plays good defense and can run the ball. That didn't just suddenly change because of one loss.

The Cowboys just proved once again that they can't beat a worthy opponent when it matters. How many above average teams have the Cowboys beaten this year? Tampa Bay, Washington (once) and Philly. Yippy, whippy.

December + Meaningfull game + Good opponent = Dallas loss

I know you don't like to use history as an indicator, but man, that formula has been spot on for the past half decade. Why has that happened, you might ask? Because the Cowboys are all flash and no substance. A bunch of Superstars that can't play as a team. Jerruh doesn't care about winning as much as he has you believing. He's a businessman first, and he's got your money. You'll be back next year, look at all that talent!
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Cowboys come off an epic joke job, and the Cowboys fans start predicting a tailspin for the Giants. One can dream, I suppose.

I mean, yeah, the Giants lost. But, they were long overdue for a loss. A letdown was bound to happen sometime. You can't win 'em all. The Giants just didn't match the intensity of the Eagles, simple as that. That doesn't mean that the Giants are suddenly a bad team. They are still the team they were a week prior to that. A fundamentaly sound team that plays good defense and can run the ball. That didn't just suddenly change because of one loss.

The Cowboys just proved once again that they can't beat a worthy opponent when it matters. How many above average teams have the Cowboys beaten this year? Tampa Bay, Washington (once) and Philly. Yippy, whippy.

December + Meaningfull game + Good opponent = Dallas loss

I know you don't like to use history as an indicator, but man, that formula has been spot on for the past half decade. Why has that happened, you might ask? Because the Cowboys are all flash and no substance. A bunch of Superstars that can't play as a team. Jerruh doesn't care about winning as much as he has you believing. He's a businessman first, and he's got your money. You'll be back next year, look at all that talent!
Once again, this has nothing to do with the Cowboys. The Cowboys could lose out the rest of the year. That's a fact and I don't deny it.

But for the reasons noted, I think the Giants are headed for disaster and I can easily see them losing their first game of the playoffs.
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Old 12-09-2008, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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Personally, I don't think the Giants are spiralling downward. They had a subpar performance this past week, though to be honest, the Eagles did a great job gameplanning and executing. We took the Ginats off guard by sticking to the run (took me off guard as well, but in a good way) Our defnese manned up and kep the best rushign attack to less than half of it normal productivity. Sure the Giants were out of synch, but honestly, the Eagles defnese did contribute to that more than some people are giving them credit for. That being said, they will not implode in the final three weeks of the season. Tom Coughlin won't let it happen. They may lose another game, but I expect it to be after they clinch home field. They have a tough finish playing two very good opponents in Dallas and Carolina (don't know who the other one is) but I think they are still a good enough team to beat the Cowboys and Carolina. The Giants could end up with two more losses, I could easily see that if the Panthers put together another performance like they did last night. Honestly though, the Giants, even if they lose two out of three, they are still in good shape for the playoffs.

I would honestly be more concerned if I were a Dallas fan. The history is undeniable, and I know it doesn't directly affect this year's team, but I'm sure there are times when Romo thinks about all the taunting he got from his late season failures. I love Romo, and think he is a great QB, but I don't know if he has the emotional toughness of some NFL QBs. I don't expect dallas to choke it up either though, but thier record in December, combined with Romo's numbers, would worry me if I was a Dallas fan. I think The Giants-Cowboys gmae will be great this week, it will be a close match, but I honeslty expect the Giants to win, albeit by a small margin. If they lose though, I wouldn't expect them to win against the Panthers, which really makes my whole argument a moot point. This game will be a great indicator for both teams.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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not gonna lie, Westbrook is known for killing the Giants. We somehow stuffed him earlier this season, but he's just an animal who always seems to kill the Giants.

that andn it was so ******* windy, even for the Meadowlands(even moreso, that's pretty damn windy) and we didn't have our starting RB. I think we struggle too much in the cold at home, but I think we'll be fine.

must I find the resiliency video? :D
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:06 PM    (permalink
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not gonna lie, Westbrook is known for killing the Giants. We somehow stuffed him earlier this season, but he's just an animal who always seems to kill the Giants.

that andn it was so ******* windy, even for the Meadowlands(even moreso, that's pretty damn windy) and we didn't have our starting RB. I think we struggle too much in the cold at home, but I think we'll be fine.

must I find the resiliency video? :D
Westbrook wasn't 100% in that 1st meeting ... and yeah he's a Giant Killer, he's always played well against us, doesn't matter what the situation is, regular season, post season, playing for a wild card, etc.

I think not having BJ hurt, but looking at the time of possession the eagles dominated us in that category in the 2nd half and I'm not sure having Jacobs would have been much of a factor especially since the defense wouldn't get off the field after third downs.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Westbrook wasn't 100% in that 1st meeting ... and yeah he's a Giant Killer, he's always played well against us, doesn't matter what the situation is, regular season, post season, playing for a wild card, etc.

I think not having BJ hurt, but looking at the time of possession the eagles dominated us in that category in the 2nd half and I'm not sure having Jacobs would have been much of a factor especially since the defense wouldn't get off the field after third downs.
yea, but westy's never 100% haha. but yes, he was more healthy on Sunday.

Jacobs punishes and tires defenses, that's how it is. His presence alone changes the game. I like Ward, but we need to keep Jacobs and not him if we have a choice. You can find average Rb's who are good at many things but not great at anything to thrive behind our OL. Jacobs is a key cog in our wheel.

We do need a big, tall gamebreaker, ala Kenny Britt.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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yea, but westy's never 100% haha. but yes, he was more healthy on Sunday.

Jacobs punishes and tires defenses, that's how it is. His presence alone changes the game. I like Ward, but we need to keep Jacobs and not him if we have a choice. You can find average Rb's who are good at many things but not great at anything to thrive behind our OL. Jacobs is a key cog in our wheel.

We do need a big, tall gamebreaker, ala Kenny Britt.
I'm not disagreeing with you here, I think Jacobs is crucial to the offense, he sets the tempo and the style of the game. In fact people are putting Eli in MVP categories when I wouldn't even say he is the MVP to our own team, Jacobs is. If you watched a game with Jacobs playing and a game with him not, you will notice that the way the Giants play on offense and run the ball is much different.
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Old 12-09-2008, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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not gonna lie, Westbrook is known for killing the Giants. We somehow stuffed him earlier this season, but he's just an animal who always seems to kill the Giants.

that andn it was so ******* windy, even for the Meadowlands(even moreso, that's pretty damn windy) and we didn't have our starting RB. I think we struggle too much in the cold at home, but I think we'll be fine.

must I find the resiliency video? :D
IT is true, but Westy is our version of your Tiki, now you are getting your payback, haha.

That wind was amazing. I was surprised, because usually when there is wind like that in Northern NJ, it is just the smae where I live in the middle of Eastern PA. The winds were what 25-35 mph. It was windy earlier in the day where I live, but at gametime, the winds were 10 mph at the most. It was a big factor in the game, but ultimately it woudln't have changed the game too much. I know gameplanning is different in those situations, but like was said numerous times, that weather favored the Giants more than the Eagles. Just sayin, I don't want to cause anything. As said before, Jacobs leaving woudln't have hade much effect with how the Eagles were (miraculously) soaking up the clock. Granted it hurts, but I don't think it would have made that much of an impact.
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