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Old 12-12-2008, 06:09 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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Default Who actually buys this nonsense about QB's?

"A QB is only as good as his supporting cast!"

Oh, really? So if Ben Roethlisberger played for the Bengals and Ryan Fitzpatrick played for the Steelers, Fitapatrick would be a star and Roethlisberger would look like an Arena league QB? Peyton Manning would play like JeMarcus Russell if he played for the Raiders? So many people take that saying literally. There's a reason NFL teams pay QB's more than any other position. There is a world of difference in a quality starting QB and a backup or fringe NFL QB. Some fans just don't like to give QB's credit for one reason or another.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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I half agree. A good QB should make recievers look good, but horrible recievers can make even good QBs look bad. Take for example Kyle Orton, who is a decent QB. Now you watch him play, and he isnt horrible, but his stats say that he is because our recievers drop a lot of passes.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Obviously no one thinks all QBs are the same, but all you have to do is look at how a QB's performances can fluctuate year to year (with different weapons) to see that supporting cast is a big part of QB performance.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying a supporting cast doesn't matter. It does, but that doesn't mean QB's are interchangeable. A good QB helps the rest of the offense play better just like they help him.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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I half agree. A good QB should make recievers look good, but horrible recievers can make even good QBs look bad. Take for example Kyle Orton, who is a decent QB. Now you watch him play, and he isnt horrible, but his stats say that he is because our recievers drop a lot of passes.
His stats are average, which is a pretty fair reflection of him, bad receivers nonwithstanding.

I think the comparison between Big Ben and a backup quarterback is a bit of an extreme comparison. Obviously the supporting cast will play a large role in a quarterback sucess (particularly the offensive line), but you can't turn a turd into gold no matter how hard you shine.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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I half agree. A good QB should make recievers look good, but horrible recievers can make even good QBs look bad. Take for example Kyle Orton, who is a decent QB. Now you watch him play, and he isnt horrible, but his stats say that he is because our recievers drop a lot of passes.
All I know is I saw Devin Hester running wild on the Saints secondary and Orton not even getting the ball in his general area...
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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I'm not saying a supporting cast doesn't matter. It does, but that doesn't mean QB's are interchangeable. A good QB helps the rest of the offense play better just like they help him.
I don't think there's a person on earth that takes the saying that literally.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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All I know is I saw Devin Hester running wild on the Saints secondary and Orton not even getting the ball in his general area...
The flags would explain part of that.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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I think the comparison between Big Ben and a backup quarterback is a bit of an extreme comparison. Obviously the supporting cast will play a large role in a quarterback sucess (particularly the offensive line), but you can't turn a turd into gold no matter how hard you shine.
This is pretty much it.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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The flags would explain part of that.
Orton overthrew Hester so many times though...

And part of that statement is true. While great QBs (Manning in my opinion) can make their supporting cast look a lot better than they actually are, a sub par supporting cast doesn't fully utilize or show how good a QB is in terms of stats (pre-moss Brady, Manning now).

It works both ways.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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I sort of agree also. I highly doubt Cassel would be throwing back to back 400 yard games if he played for the Bills.
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Old 12-12-2008, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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This thread would be much better if you asked about the RB position.
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:07 PM    (permalink
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I think a QBs production can only go as far as both his talent and supporting cast. If he has a LOT of talent, but has a supporting cast, that will only take him so far, but he has so-so talent but a GREAT supporting cast, he will go farther (probably) than example 1.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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I half agree. A good QB should make recievers look good, but horrible recievers can make even good QBs look bad.
as weird as it is to completely agree with a bear fan, i feel the same way. i also think certain systems can help certain qb's look better, as it may play more to their strengths.
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:47 PM    (permalink
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derek anderson for mvp
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Old 12-13-2008, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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Like 51 said, it's a saying. Defense doesn't literally win championships, but that it's an important factor is the point.
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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"A QB is only as good as his supporting cast!"

Oh, really? So if Ben Roethlisberger played for the Bengals and Ryan Fitzpatrick played for the Steelers, Fitapatrick would be a star and Roethlisberger would look like an Arena league QB? Peyton Manning would play like JeMarcus Russell if he played for the Raiders? So many people take that saying literally. There's a reason NFL teams pay QB's more than any other position. There is a world of difference in a quality starting QB and a backup or fringe NFL QB. Some fans just don't like to give QB's credit for one reason or another.
Honestly the QB position is the most overrated position in sports because of this line of thinking.

If you think Peyton Manning could look anywhere close to a top 10 QB with the Raiders cast that's pretty sad.

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I'm not saying a supporting cast doesn't matter. It does, but that doesn't mean QB's are interchangeable. A good QB helps the rest of the offense play better just like they help him.
Those statements are mutually exclusive.

Saying that a QB is only as good as his supporting cast

IS NOT the same thing as saying

All QBs are equal given an equal supporting cast


Obviously there are some guys who can maximize talent in places that other guys cannot.

But if you're honestly going to say that top level guys could produce the same regardless of cast, then to me that's being a little absurd. There is only so much a QB can do with a turnstile Oline, a terrible offensive scheme, and no playmaking WRs.

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Old 12-13-2008, 12:39 PM    (permalink
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Like 51 said, it's a saying. Defense doesn't literally win championships, but that it's an important factor is the point.
Defense wins championships period. 39 of 42 Super Bowl winners had a top 10 defense.

There are only two exceptions. The Raiders who did it twice with a defense ranked 12th, and the Colts recently. And the only reason the Colts defense wasn't rated decent was because they were missing their Defensive MVP in Bob Sanders who in his return, sparked their defense to playing at an elite level during their playoff run. And it was a defensive INT for a TD that sealed that game
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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My sentiments exactly, could you imagine if Carson Palmer or Ben Rothliaberger were playing with the Cardinals offense? They'd be more of scoring threat on every play. Not saying that Warner isn't a solid QB, but an elite QB he is not. So it does matter what supporting cast you have to a certani extent. But I think guys like Manning, Palmer, Brady, Rothlisberger, Cutler and a few other elite QB's can make bad situations tolerable and even into some what of a contender.
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Old 12-13-2008, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Orton overthrew Hester so many times though...

And part of that statement is true. While great QBs (Manning in my opinion) can make their supporting cast look a lot better than they actually are, a sub par supporting cast doesn't fully utilize or show how good a QB is in terms of stats (pre-moss Brady, Manning now).

It works both ways.
i only saw 1 overthrow besides the 2 PIs
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Old 12-13-2008, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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i disagree with the statement in that the QB should make the supporting cast better as well as the argument in the 1st post

but i do say that a good supporting cast can help a young QB grow and mature as a QB at a faster rate... except for leinart who has the 2 best recievers in the game and couldnt do anything...
both matt ryan and joe flacco have decent supporting casts (dmason is solid and roddy white is one of the leaders this year)
another thing that is similar between the successes of ryan and flacco is that they have a good running game... the teams that we've seen with QB troubles this season do not have a strong running attack. One exception to this would be matt cassell, who has done a phenomenal job of becoming the offense with his arm
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Old 12-13-2008, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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Defense wins championships period. 39 of 42 Super Bowl winners had a top 10 defense.

There are only two exceptions. The Raiders who did it twice with a defense ranked 12th, and the Colts recently. And the only reason the Colts defense wasn't rated decent was because they were missing their Defensive MVP in Bob Sanders who in his return, sparked their defense to playing at an elite level during their playoff run. And it was a defensive INT for a TD that sealed that game
You're proving my point. Taken literally, "defense wins championships" means that all you have to do is have a top defense and you don't have to care about offense or special teams because you'll win championships all the time. What it really means, as you said, is that a Super Bowl champion has to have a top defense.
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Old 12-13-2008, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BBIB View Post
Defense wins championships period. 39 of 42 Super Bowl winners had a top 10 defense.

There are only two exceptions. The Raiders who did it twice with a defense ranked 12th, and the Colts recently. And the only reason the Colts defense wasn't rated decent was because they were missing their Defensive MVP in Bob Sanders who in his return, sparked their defense to playing at an elite level during their playoff run. And it was a defensive INT for a TD that sealed that game
cool fact
did not know that
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:06 PM    (permalink
BBIB
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Originally Posted by The Unseen View Post
You're proving my point. Taken literally, "defense wins championships" means that all you have to do is have a top defense and you don't have to care about offense or special teams because you'll win championships all the time. What it really means, as you said, is that a Super Bowl champion has to have a top defense.
Yeah obviously you have to have some semblance of an offense unless you have one of those greatest defenses of all-time like the Ravens that one year.
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Old 12-14-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
"A QB is only as good as his supporting cast!"

Oh, really? So if Ben Roethlisberger played for the Bengals and Ryan Fitzpatrick played for the Steelers, Fitapatrick would be a star and Roethlisberger would look like an Arena league QB? Peyton Manning would play like JeMarcus Russell if he played for the Raiders? So many people take that saying literally. There's a reason NFL teams pay QB's more than any other position. There is a world of difference in a quality starting QB and a backup or fringe NFL QB. Some fans just don't like to give QB's credit for one reason or another.
You clearly don't understand the meaning behind the statement.

All anyone ever means when they say that, is that football is a team sport - and you can't put a guy out there and ask him to do it all. The statement is essentially a counter argument for why highly talented QB's can't get it done. There's a reason guys like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady don't win every single game they play in - and that reasoning is that a QB is only as good as his surrounding cast.
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