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Old 12-13-2008, 02:18 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Default Has the day of the pass first attack come to an end???

The Giants are a run first team, Tennessee is also along with Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Minnesota, Washington, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville and Oakland. Are team moving away from the passing game in favour of the run and will RB's be in ever more demand. Has the passing attack run its course?
I, for one think it has. The days of 50 passing TD's is over and New Orleans who leads the league in passing won't make the playoffs. Have DC's become so good at defending the pass that their defenses are perhaps vulnerable against the run and OC's are beginning to take advantage of it.
The Cover 2 defense which has spread around the league is designed for the modern passing attacks, has it seen it day come and go?
What say you all???
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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If Tom Brady wasn't hurt the #1 offense in the league would be New England.

Just sayin...

Also, look at the Cardinals.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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I've brought this up before as it pertains to the Saints but Drew Brees does not play well against a Cover 2 defense. Brees struggled against Chicago just recently, he had a very poor outing against Tampa Bay and Minnesota. I don't feel like going back to every game played against Cover 2 teams to compile as evidence.

Run first teams have usually been successful although history has shown that if you have an elite QB then you can definitely ride them to the SB. Look at the Mannings, Brady, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, etc... However, I feel it is easier to stop the pass than it is the run. The Giants have recently shown that an effective front four pass rush, complete with some exotic blitzes, can make an average secondary look great. See what they did to Tom Brady in the SB as an example.

In my opinion, a team built more as a run first team will open up more possibilities. You can wear down the defense with a bruiser and a slasher, you open up the play-action pass, and also create the opportunity for the deep ball with the defense thinking run first. I think that's how your seeing these run first teams have success now. Defenses now are playing the pass as opposed to the run, which creates more room for running backs. I also think that most defenses now are built to stop the pass than the run. Sure, you have some teams like Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Baltimore, and NY Giants that are adept at both but they also have the ability to pressure the passer and force them to make mistakes.

I wouldn't say that the Cover 2 has shut down the pass like the 46 Defense shut down the run. There are ways to beat both. In a Cover 2 you attack the soft spots of the zone. Against the 46, you use short passes and try to get a lot of YAC. That's how the WCO came to be popular. It exploited the weaknesses of the 46.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:46 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by WinslowBodden View Post
If Tom Brady wasn't hurt the #1 offense in the league would be New England.

Just sayin...

Also, look at the Cardinals.
I still get the feeling we are closing the door on an era where the pass ruled. It does seem to me that the NFL is moving away from that philosophy. It won't be overnight but there does seem to be a change taking place.
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Old 12-13-2008, 02:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by diabsoule View Post
I've brought this up before as it pertains to the Saints but Drew Brees does not play well against a Cover 2 defense. Brees struggled against Chicago just recently, he had a very poor outing against Tampa Bay and Minnesota. I don't feel like going back to every game played against Cover 2 teams to compile as evidence.

Run first teams have usually been successful although history has shown that if you have an elite QB then you can definitely ride them to the SB. Look at the Mannings, Brady, Steve Young, Joe Montana, Troy Aikman, etc... However, I feel it is easier to stop the pass than it is the run. The Giants have recently shown that an effective front four pass rush, complete with some exotic blitzes, can make an average secondary look great. See what they did to Tom Brady in the SB as an example.

In my opinion, a team built more as a run first team will open up more possibilities. You can wear down the defense with a bruiser and a slasher, you open up the play-action pass, and also create the opportunity for the deep ball with the defense thinking run first. I think that's how your seeing these run first teams have success now. Defenses now are playing the pass as opposed to the run, which creates more room for running backs. I also think that most defenses now are built to stop the pass than the run. Sure, you have some teams like Pittsburgh, Tennessee, Baltimore, and NY Giants that are adept at both but they also have the ability to pressure the passer and force them to make mistakes.

I wouldn't say that the Cover 2 has shut down the pass like the 46 Defense shut down the run. There are ways to beat both. In a Cover 2 you attack the soft spots of the zone. Against the 46, you use short passes and try to get a lot of YAC. That's how the WCO came to be popular. It exploited the weaknesses of the 46.
You make some excellent points, I'm just sayig that perhaps the Giants have started a new major trend in pro football. The return to the running game to beat the modern defenses designed to stop the pass.
I'm not saying every team will jump on board, old ways die hard, ask Al Davis and his vertical offense. All I'm suggestig is that more and more teams seem to be moving away from the passing offense.
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:05 AM    (permalink
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You make some excellent points, I'm just sayig that perhaps the Giants have started a new major trend in pro football. The return to the running game to beat the modern defenses designed to stop the pass.
I'm not saying every team will jump on board, old ways die hard, ask Al Davis and his vertical offense. All I'm suggestig is that more and more teams seem to be moving away from the passing offense.
I think it has to do with the fact that the NFL has evolved from a one back league to a two-to-three running back league. More and more teams have at least two effective backs that can spell one another which leaves them fresher and the defenses more fatigued. This year you have seen a decrease in the pass first teams due to Brady being sidelined and Peyton Manning struggling but Eli Manning is still effective, Kurt Warner is looking like an MVP in Arizona with their passing game, and Drew Brees is putting up great numbers in N.O.

It was only just last year that Brady and the Patriots lit the league up with their passing attack and who isn't to say that the same thing wouldn't of happened this year if Tom Brady wouldn't have suffered a season ending injury in the first game of the season.

In my opinion what it boils down to is that teams are finding that perfect balance of run and pass which leaves opposing defenses and defensive coordinators guessing on what the offense will do on the next down. The teams that have the best push with their defensive line or teams that blitz effectively have been great at shutting down both.
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Old 12-13-2008, 03:09 AM    (permalink
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In my opinion there will be more pass first teams in the years to come, it seems like receivers get more and more ridiculously big an athletic. This seems like it's just a down year for passing offenses for some reason.

I mean look at last year, we had a QB and receiver both shatter records.
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Old 12-13-2008, 04:19 AM    (permalink
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I'm not really agreeing with this. NO just doesnt make the playoffs due to an attrocious defense and a weak kicker (we would have won against both minnesota and denver had it not been for grammatica). The colts are still gona make it dispite an iffy defense and peyton playing below his own standards. But on the other side of trhe medal i must mention that the only reason arizona are in the playoffs is their awfull division, they have a losing record outside it.
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:42 AM    (permalink
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The Giants are a run first team, Tennessee is also along with Tampa Bay, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Minnesota, Washington, Chicago, Detroit, Atlanta, Buffalo, Miami, Jacksonville and Oakland. Are team moving away from the passing game in favour of the run and will RB's be in ever more demand. Has the passing attack run its course?
I, for one think it has. The days of 50 passing TD's is over and New Orleans who leads the league in passing won't make the playoffs. Have DC's become so good at defending the pass that their defenses are perhaps vulnerable against the run and OC's are beginning to take advantage of it.
The Cover 2 defense which has spread around the league is designed for the modern passing attacks, has it seen it day come and go?
What say you all???
Well, you mentioned 14 of 32 teams. That's not even half of the league.

Also, for the last 10+ years we've always had teams with great rushing attacks and teams with great passing attacks.

I remember in 2003 people were saying similar things to me (my highschool friends telling me that this league will be nothing but running in the future etc.) with a great year in running with such names as, Lt / Shaun Alexander / Faulk (kind of) / Edge James / Priest Holmes / Rudi Johnson / Deuce McAllister / Ricky Williams / Ahman Green / Travis Henry (and yes, all those guys were pretty good then, despite what you think of them now). Meanwhile I don't think it was a particularly good year for passing.

Yet in 2004 Peyton manning threw for 49 TD's to set a record and in 2007 Tom Brady threw for 50 TD's to set a new record. Meanwhile bunches of other QB's have thrived in the last 5 years.

There will be ups and down for both the rush and pass offense but never will the league turn completely one sided for more than a year or two span again in my opinion. Most teams try to avoid being pigeon holed into a run or pass oriented attack.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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Pittsburgh isn't a run first offense anymore.

They shouldn't be with the tools they have in a sense. They have the players to be an incredibly balanced offense. They're held back by injuries and a moronic OC.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:13 PM    (permalink
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Pittsburgh isn't a run first offense anymore.

They shouldn't be with the tools they have in a sense. They have the players to be an incredibly balanced offense. They're held back by injuries and a moronic OC.
I dont think Bruce Arians has heard of a three step drop.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Top 5 Reasons why not
1. Drew Brees
2. Jay Cutler
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brady Quinn
5. Joe Flacco
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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Top 5 Reasons why not
1. Drew Brees
2. Jay Cutler
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brady Quinn
5. Joe Flacco
I get what you're trying to say, but that's a pretty bad list.
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Old 12-13-2008, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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I get what you're trying to say, but that's a pretty bad list.
Drew Brees because as long as he is playing in the league he is going to throw the ball 40 times a game. And the other 4 because they are the best young QBs in the nfl.
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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Drew Brees because as long as he is playing in the league he is going to throw the ball 40 times a game. And the other 4 because they are the best young QBs in the nfl.
Uh, no. 3 of them ae in the conversation, but Brady Quinn does not belong.

Best QBs 25 or younger:

1. Jay Cutler
2. Aaron Rodgers
3. Matt Ryan
4. Joe Flacco
5. Trent Edwards
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Old 12-13-2008, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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The Ravens offense protects Joe Flacco more than the Florida Gators offense protects Tebow's passing ability
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Old 12-13-2008, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Drew Brees because as long as he is playing in the league he is going to throw the ball 40 times a game. And the other 4 because they are the best young QBs in the nfl.
Correction: As long as Sean Payton is a head coach or an offensive coordinator with an elite QB he will choose to air the ball out 40+ times a game.
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Old 12-13-2008, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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Teams base their whole deep passing games off of the play action. Actually, the whole offensive systems is based off of the play action pass.

And what do you need to make a play action pass work? A good running game.

Then theres other offenses who like to spread the D's out and break down the field systematically and opportunistically. The Pats helped make this popular. It uses the slot WR as a "running game." This is because a WR's biggest advantage is that they have a clear path to the second and third level because there's no front 7 in front of them. It chooses the use the field instantly, rather than forcing teams to commit to a certain area and then attacking where they aren't.

I'd say it's pretty even the two league wide.
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Old 12-13-2008, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Blame it on the Rams.
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Old 12-13-2008, 08:41 PM    (permalink
jkpigskin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SchizophrenicBatman View Post
The Ravens offense protects Joe Flacco more than the Florida Gators offense protects Tebow's passing ability
might be true, but flacco is no weak-armed QB incapable of making the big throwns... his arm is a cannon, more than nfl caliber
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Old 12-13-2008, 10:50 PM    (permalink
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might be true, but flacco is no weak-armed QB incapable of making the big throwns... his arm is a cannon, more than nfl caliber
Ya, Flacco seems pretty hesistant sometimes, he reminds me of this years version of Derek Anderson, not very confident in some of his passes, but when he has confidence he can make almost every pass.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by illmatic74 View Post
Top 5 Reasons why not
1. Drew Brees
2. Jay Cutler
3. Matt Ryan
4. Brady Quinn
5. Joe Flacco
Denver, Atlanta, Cleveland and Baltimore are all dedicated to a run 1st offense. Only Drew Brees plays for a HC who believes in a pass first philosophy.
Denver has lost 5 RB's this season to injury so of course they are relying on the passing game a lot more but Shanahan has never been a HC who doesn't run the ball a lot.
Obviously the successful HC's who have relied on the pass to be successful are unlikely to change and most of them have the QB's to run a pass first offense, however I think teams are looking at the Giants and saying that passing teams can be somewhat contained by running the ball and keeping the other team's offense off the field. I also think that DC's and HC's are starting to catch up with their defenses against the pass. These things always go in cycles.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:17 PM    (permalink
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I don't think the Redskins were ever a pass first team.
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Old 12-13-2008, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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There is something to this. As teams get pass happy, the D's need to get lighter, so if you get a run first physical team versus small D's ....

Possible.
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Old 12-14-2008, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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i was thinking about this, and i see another way to look at this
we have seen an age where "Defense wins championships" many of those defenses were hard-nosed physical defenses. Why did these teams have physical defenses? because that was the philosophy of the teams. That physical philosophy equaled a similar approach on offense which means running the ball. As we see more teams realizing that these physical defenses wins championships, we will see more team going for a more physical team... which means running the football
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