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Old 02-01-2009, 08:50 AM    (permalink
HellonEarth84
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Barwin is overhyped due to the Vrabel comparisions. I watched the Cinci vs VTech game and was not impressed at all with Barwin. Just because he played TE and DE people automatically think he's Vrabel minus 15 years. Simply not true. Vrabel was a beast DE in College. Barwin was/is a project who only played one year at DE. Yes, he has potential and a huge ceiling. But he also has the potential to be a one year wonder without any consistency.

English is the complete opposite. A contributer his entire time in College. Putting up consistent numbers, always being the stand out on defense. 2 time MAC player of the year. Solid showing at the Senior Bowl.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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Option two.
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Old 02-01-2009, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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thats what everyone was saying about brandon meriweather too when he came out of miami........ (cant spell his name correctly)
I actually called the Meriweather pick, the Maroney pick, and had Mankins in round two, which is pretty neat. I was off on Mayo (I thought it'd be Keith Rivers), but other than that I feel like I have somewhat of a feel for the Patriots' drafting habits and there's no way I could see Vontae Davis. This guy is just a straight-up bum, I can't see anything besides potential that makes him appealing, and most every first round pick in the NFL has Pro Bowl potential at some point.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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2 definitely. I don't know about Larry English in the first and he won't be there by the second so he's probably not the choice. I like Chung but coupled with English i'd say no. Alphonso Smith will be a good player for good time and Barwin has about as much upside as anyone but is the definition of boom or bust. But overall the ability of Smith outweighs the choices of English and Chung alone and then theres the possibility of Barwin being a flat out stud.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:35 PM    (permalink
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Patrick Chung is being severely under-rated. He's probably the best SS in this draft. I don't think he'll turn out to be an amazing game breaking type of player like Polamalu or Ed Reed, but he will be a solid safety like Chris Hope from Tennesse. Homerism also blurs a lot of fans opinion of James Sanders. I think he's easily the worst player on our defense and needs to be upgraded.

With Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite, Richardson, and a sure fire veteran CB in free agency... do we really go that route so early? Especially with success BB has had in taking CB's in the later rounds.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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So we're talking ideal drafts huh? Or at least we were. I don't check here much, regrettably.

1st, #23 Alphonso Smith
I've kinda come down off the Sintim seat. He looked pretty unspectacular at the Senior Bowl. Didn't fulfill my expectations I had for him at all. Smith has spectacular ball skills. It would be nice to have a guy who can put up 5+ picks a year and take some to the house again.

2, #48 Larry English
Probably isn't happening, but there's a good chance that either he or Sintim fall this far. We've talked about needing a pass rusher, and English fits that mold. True tweener who should be excellent at getting to opposing quarterbacks. A little bit of help in free agency at this position wouldn't hurt either.

2, #55 Phil Loadholt/Jamon Meredith
Right tackle is an underrated need for us. Nick Kaczur kinda...well, he kind of sucks. Someone to sure up the right side of our line would be really nice. Either of those two could do it as well. Loadholt would really give our running game a boost.

3, #84 Chip Vaughn
Completely underrated guy who I'm pretty damned sure could fill the SS role quite nicely. If he isn't there, Cook is a guy I'm really excited about as well. Seems to be a bit of an idiot, but he's talented as physical. Hamlin and Greene would be nice too, although we could probably pick them up later. Pretty good draft to be looking for a SS.

3, #97 Jasper Brinkley
Might as well grab a thumper. Ours are aging a bit. Brinkley is flying under the radar a bit. I think he needs to stop himself from getting too big, but if he can control his weight a bit I think he could be a major asset in holding up against the run.

4, #119 Andre Brown
Might not last this long, but he seems to be cut from the Sammy Morris type mold that can be wicked effective for us. Doesn't hurt that he probably has the talent to go two or three rounds higher either.

5, #151 Captain Munnerlyn
A guy who really should have stayed in school. Gives us good depth with the potential to start down the line if things come together right. Probably won't be here, but it's a possibility. People aren't real high on him.

6, #183 Anthony Hill
Having a dominant blocker at tight end never hurts. Could really give a bit of a boost to our run game. Richard Quinn would be another guy to keep an eye on if he was there.

7, #215 Jaison Williams
He's big and he's fast...that's pretty much all that's too him. But it's a 7th rounder. What does it matter? Might as well pickup a bit of talent.


Yes, I realize this is a pipe dream.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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I don't want to touch Barwin. He's interesting to think about, but he's also really raw. Eh, I suppose he could be good for us...but I would rather get a more proven pass rusher who has played the position for a bit longer.
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Old 02-05-2009, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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I don't want to touch Barwin. He's interesting to think about, but he's also really raw. Eh, I suppose he could be good for us...but I would rather get a more proven pass rusher who has played the position for a bit longer.
I agree with the sentiments but is there going to be a proven pass rusher with that sort of upside at the end of the second. I think it would be worth the 2nd 2nd rounder and let him learn the position for a while.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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1. Alphonso Smtih-Officially i'm on the bandwagon here as I don't think we get a real quality OLB in the first to warrant us passing on Smith.

2. Louis Delmas/Patrick Chung-Hopefully one of them will be here. I would prefer Delmas but its likely he'll be a late first/early second guy.

2b. Connor Barwin-Boom/bust pick here but I think his upside is too high to pass on. With AD, Vrabel and Crable he won't need to be rushed and can learn the position.

3. Mike Mickens-I think his stock will go way down with his injury and his slight frame. Real good steal here.

Not too sure of things will shape up after that but OT depth and ILB depth should be added
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Old 02-05-2009, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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I'm not too high on Barwin. He has a lot of potential but he didn't look like anything special whenever I saw him play, but he definitely looks the part of a Patriot. If we got Smith, Delmas/Chung, and Mickens I would be thrilled.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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I don't have an opinion on this subject yet but what if MIchael Johnson falls in the range of our 1st our 2nd pick in round 2. I haven't seen him play that much this year and I know he isn't a high-motor guy but if he can show some agility and ability to play linebacker, he may be worth a look.
As I said, this is more of a question since I haven't seen him play and doesn't really have an opinion on him. If he falls all the way to the middle of round 2, maybe the potential is high enough to take a gamble

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Old 02-05-2009, 09:26 PM    (permalink
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Johnson project terribly to OLB in a 3-4. Wouldn't fit at all. He's not the type of guy you look for at the position. Too big. Plus he sucks. Almost anyone who has seen him play will tell you that. Good workout numbers and potential aren't worth the headache with poor technique and lack of effort.
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:59 AM    (permalink
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I think Barwin's one of those guys that will take a while to find his niche in the NFL. Probably will sit in the bench for 3 or 4 years and then have a breakout season. Definitely a project where ever he ends up.

Larry English is an undersized DE who should be able to translate to OLB in the 3-4. He won't wow scouts at the combine with his athleticism, but neither did Woodley.
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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I perfer the second combination because Smith is an excellent cornerback that would fit well and needed. Barwin can play a multiple postions and help the team anyway possible which is covented by Bill
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:12 PM    (permalink
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I'm not so sure about Barwin being able to play multiple positions. Yeah, he can play tight end. Does that make him Vrabel? Not yet. Wouldn't mind if we got him, but I don't want to spend one of our second rounders on a guy that won't help for a bit.
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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2 definitely. I don't know about Larry English in the first and he won't be there by the second so he's probably not the choice.
Why not English in the 1st? He's probably the best DE to OLB conversion in this years draft.

Orakpo and Everette Brown both look like pure DE's to me. Sintim and Cushing both seem like cocky primadonnas. Cushing looks more like a ILB in a 3-4 and Sintim is overhyped because he has experience in the 3-4, which means very little considering every 3-4 OLB played DE in College. English is a blue collar OLB prototype. 6'2 255lbs on the Right side with Crable adding weight to take on the left side in the future.

The only reason people question his 1st round status is because he went to NIU, but alot of great pass rushers have come from small schools (DeMarcus Ware, Osi Umenyora, James Harrison) and I think English could be the next great rusher in that same mold.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Barwin is the flavor of the day apparently. Who says he's even a first day pick?

He played TE and got ten sacks in the very weak Big East. So what. Guys like that are a dime a dozen.

What about Crable? He had like 15 sacks in the Big Ten. Huge TFL numbers.

What about Redd, Robertson, Woods? Just draft another guy and throw him in there w/o any guarantee he'll be any better than the aforementioned?

I think they're interested, or should be in

Brandon Pettigrew (very important to get someone who can catch from the TE) - 1st

Percy Harvin, would be a great H back out of the backfiled - 1st / 2nd

Alphonso Smith, like Hobbs only a lot better 1st / 2nd

Sean Smith 2nd

Alex Mack, could play guard or center and is probably already better than Koppen 2nd

Ayers, could play elephant role (Vrabel's) or 3-4 DE or possibly ILB 3rd/4th

Mitch King, like Klecko only with 6 more inches and more mobile could convert to ILB. 5th

Julius Byrd CB with great ball skills 4th/5th

A safety would be nice, don't know if any out of college would have the intelligence to play the position...however Alphonso Smith probably could, he has the size, tackling ability and ball skills.

Demonte Bolden DT - good size for 3-4 DE, very strong. latter rounds.

Bear Pascoe / Ryan Purvis latter round TE if Pettigrew isn't taken.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:19 PM    (permalink
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Ya, big eww @ Johnson in the first round...nevermind in the Patriots' 3-4. There are tons of better options out there for that.

For the OP:
I like Vontae Davis, but I doubt he'll be there. He's really the only CB I could see them taking in the first round.

Jennings is a huge reach in the 4th for a team whose RB depth chart is set.

Shawn Nelson is highly doubtful to be available in the 4th round - he's looking like a 2nd round pick (with many projecting him as a 1st rounder).

Way too much invested in offensive tackles... The Pats might upgrade the RT spot, but it's more likely to come from within (O'Callaghan/Britt).

I like Bruton, but he might be had later.

I like Barden, but the Pats need to invest in a more proven WR earlier in the draft. I'd like to see one taken in their first 3 picks.

And I know a lot of people have the Pats taking Alphonso Smith at #23, but I just don't see him as the type of CB the Pats would use a first on. If the Pats had the #23 pick last year, I could see them doing whatever it took to get DRC, Jenkins, Talib, or McKelvin... But you just don't have those elite physical-athletic freaks that were highly talented and productive in this draft (there are still a ton of good ones). The Pats got guys fitting Smith's profile in the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th (Samuel, Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite) rounds in recent drafts... Why would they use a first round pick on him? Does not compute.

Honestly, if William Moore either isn't there or turns out to be a total slob, and Rey Maualuga doesn't fall off the face of the Earth (i.e. down to #23), I think I'd probably prefer the Pats to take one of the WRs at #23... DHB, Nicks, Britt...I'd be happy with any of those 3 bigger, outside threats.
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Old 02-10-2009, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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Honestly, if William Moore either isn't there or turns out to be a total slob, and Rey Maualuga doesn't fall off the face of the Earth (i.e. down to #23), I think I'd probably prefer the Pats to take one of the WRs at #23... DHB, Nicks, Britt...I'd be happy with any of those 3 bigger, outside threats.
I think we need to find a number 2 receiver with potential, but I don't think this is the year for it. If one of those guys falls to the second, especially Britt or DHB, I wouldn't mind it...but assuming Brady is healthy we're a few holes away from being in the mix for a title.
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Old 02-10-2009, 11:52 AM    (permalink
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Ya, big eww @ Johnson in the first round...nevermind in the Patriots' 3-4. There are tons of better options out there for that.

For the OP:
I like Vontae Davis, but I doubt he'll be there. He's really the only CB I could see them taking in the first round.

Jennings is a huge reach in the 4th for a team whose RB depth chart is set.

Shawn Nelson is highly doubtful to be available in the 4th round - he's looking like a 2nd round pick (with many projecting him as a 1st rounder).

Way too much invested in offensive tackles... The Pats might upgrade the RT spot, but it's more likely to come from within (O'Callaghan/Britt).

I like Bruton, but he might be had later.

I like Barden, but the Pats need to invest in a more proven WR earlier in the draft. I'd like to see one taken in their first 3 picks.

And I know a lot of people have the Pats taking Alphonso Smith at #23, but I just don't see him as the type of CB the Pats would use a first on. If the Pats had the #23 pick last year, I could see them doing whatever it took to get DRC, Jenkins, Talib, or McKelvin... But you just don't have those elite physical-athletic freaks that were highly talented and productive in this draft (there are still a ton of good ones). The Pats got guys fitting Smith's profile in the 4th, 3rd, 2nd, and 4th (Samuel, Hobbs, Wheatley, Wilhite) rounds in recent drafts... Why would they use a first round pick on him? Does not compute.

Honestly, if William Moore either isn't there or turns out to be a total slob, and Rey Maualuga doesn't fall off the face of the Earth (i.e. down to #23), I think I'd probably prefer the Pats to take one of the WRs at #23... DHB, Nicks, Britt...I'd be happy with any of those 3 bigger, outside threats.
I agree a couple of things you said, but I think you didn't consider everything before commenting on our RB, OL and WR depth.
First, Maroney and Morris are both injury prone as is Jordan and we're not even sure to resign Jordan. Jennings would give us a good young option in the short yardage situation. As for the OL, remember how we got destroyed against teams like Pittsburgh. Our left side do a good job but the right side could really be upgraded. Neal is always injured and the bad play from our right tackle prevent us from running on this side. Also if you've seen play O'Callaghan, you would realize that he doesn't have what it takes to be a dominant T, he's way too slow on his feet and does not get good leverage to use his strength. Britt is a good backup but he's not much more than that. Concerning WR, I don't think we should look earlier than the third for this position as we clearly have more pressing needs.

As a side note, I did this mock before the senior bowl. Nelson is clearly not falling further than early third round.
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Old 02-10-2009, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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First, Maroney and Morris are both injury prone as is Jordan and we're not even sure to resign Jordan. Jennings would give us a good young option in the short yardage situation.
Aside from Morris and Maroney, they've got Faulk, Evans, and BenJarvis Green-Ellis. Jordan is unlikely to be back with the Pats. Doesn't make sense to draft a guy earlier than the 6th round when you've got 4-5 locks on the depth chart.

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As for the OL, remember how we got destroyed against teams like Pittsburgh. Our left side do a good job but the right side could really be upgraded. Neal is always injured and the bad play from our right tackle prevent us from running on this side. Also if you've seen play O'Callaghan, you would realize that he doesn't have what it takes to be a dominant T, he's way too slow on his feet and does not get good leverage to use his strength. Britt is a good backup but he's not much more than that.
Pittsburgh did well because Casey Hampton dominates Dan Koppen. Personally, I know Koppen's overrated a bit, but I don't see anyone calling for him to be replaced because he does so many other things. There were a lot of things wrong in the Pittsburgh game, and I really don't think the OL was even close to the beginning of the problem there (special teams and turn overs)...

The OL played very well as they got healthier. Billy Yates could use replacing, and O'Callaghan maybe could be replaced as well (though he was looking pretty good as someone who might be able to play either T or G). Wesley Britt is a bit underrated, and I'm surprised he's not starting somewhere right now.

Point is, it's going to take a lot higher pick to find someone that will make the roster, nevermind unseat Nick Kaczur at RT (#23) or Stephen Neal at RG... I do like Jamon Meredith a lot though.

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Concerning WR, I don't think we should look earlier than the third for this position as we clearly have more pressing needs.
I definitely disagree here... The lack of a real threat outside of Moss and Welker shut down a large portion of the Patriots' offense, and kept Gaffney from doing what he does when teams expend energy on defending 3 other guys. They need someone on the sideline opposite Moss to pull corners and safeties away from the play (or blow by them if they "don't bite").
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Old 02-10-2009, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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I definitely disagree here... The lack of a real threat outside of Moss and Welker shut down a large portion of the Patriots' offense, and kept Gaffney from doing what he does when teams expend energy on defending 3 other guys. They need someone on the sideline opposite Moss to pull corners and safeties away from the play (or blow by them if they "don't bite").
I'm in the same boat with you about the lack of a threat outside of Moss and Welker, but the value wouldn't be there at all if you weigh it against our needs at other positions. Moss and Welker will get loose next year if Brady is healthy. Our entire offense gets better with him under center. I wouldn't call Gaffney didn't exactly wow last year like he did in the playoffs, but Cassel wasn't exactly as adept as Brady is at getting everyone involved in the offense. Picking up a guy in the third or fourth round to develop would be ideal, IMO.
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Old 02-11-2009, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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In the first round, unless a guy like Maualuga falls, they should go either WR (Maclin, Darrius Heyward-Bey, Percy Harvin) or OL (Duke Robinson, Jason Smith, Ebon Britton)... Those are going to be the BPA's anyway. I really like the idea of William Moore in the first, but I'd be really happy with a Victor Harris/Darius Butler & Patrick Chung/Michael Hamlin combo in the 2nd round...

As I've said, if they don't use #23 to take an OL, it's fairly pointless to take one at all until a bit later... So I'd say the first two rounds being...

23. Darrius Heyward-Bey
48. Victor "Macho" Harris
57. Patrick Chung

...would be ace.

The drop-off in WR talent from the first and second round to later is huge. Not so with CBs...the CB class is pretty deep with guys that are on the same level.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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But we're really 2 years away from even needing a WR. There's barely enough balls for Moss & Welker, and the O has had success with just about any guy plugged in to the "#2" spot outside.

I would prefer moves that land us the T & S we need now and long term. WR can wait a year or 2, or possible be addressed in FA (Ocho would look good in blue)
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Old 02-11-2009, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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But we're really 2 years away from even needing a WR. There's barely enough balls for Moss & Welker, and the O has had success with just about any guy plugged in to the "#2" spot outside.

I would prefer moves that land us the T & S we need now and long term. WR can wait a year or 2, or possible be addressed in FA (Ocho would look good in blue)
If we're throwing out free agents, how about Torry Holt? Perfect stop gap solution.


....it would never happen though. Personally, I don't want to deal with Chad Johnson. I didn't think Randy Moss would workout either, but still, Johnson has been acting like a real girl the past few years and has a bigger mouth than Randy ever had. I'm pretty sure he said something about wanting to play here and the price is probably one we could afford to pay(one of our seconds might do the trick) but it's just too much of a headache. Don't think it has any legs anyway. We have to be careful at this point too. Can't bring in too many guys like that. Can't get too old.

I just don't see wide receiver as that big of a need. There ARE a few guys out there in free agency if Belichick it's really that big of a need...but we don't need to use a first on a receiver. No need to. Much better to fill a hole at corner or pickup a pass rusher at OLB than to take a luxury pick on DHB or Harvin(Maclin will be looooooong gone). I wouldn't even take a wide receiver until around the 4th. Picking up a right tackle and a safety in addition to the OLB/Corner need would be good. Then, maybe I would take a Brandon Tate or Demetrius Byrd type. Ramses Barden wouldn't be bad in the third either if he's there.
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