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Old 12-01-2008, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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Alright here's the deal: Talk about the 3-4 has been filling up the rasicallegular discussion threads and other threads in the forum. So I have decided to take them all and put them in its own thread. In just the discussion thread alone I searched through over 20 pages and moved 128 posts to this thread. That made this a 6 page thread. A lot of talk about one issue and it doesn't appear like it will go away until a defensive coordinator is hired and we hear his plans.

Here's the run down: Basically the poster AtariBigby thinks we should move to a 3-4 and everyone else is against it. Multiple times we've gone through scenarios of what players fit where and so on. If you have been following from the beginning than everything up to post 156 you have already read. If you're looking at this for the first time you can either read through six pages of what was already discussed or jump in at the current topic.

Try to keep all posts about the 3-4 in this thread.
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm all for moving to a 3-4 but we can't do it til we hit rock bottom. With the personnel we have we could do

Jenkins - Pickett - Kampman
Chillar - Barnett - Bishop - Hawk

Jenkins would be a good fit, we would have to get rid of some DTs and we don't have any true NTs. Barnett and Hawk would do well in the middle, but we don't really have any OLBs for the scheme, Chillar might do alright. You could arrange the LBs a number of ways.

This has been my pipe dream for awhile now. I really, really want it to happen but I know it wont.

Just get us a new DC!!!!!!
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
I'm all for moving to a 3-4 but we can't do it til we hit rock bottom. With the personnel we have we could do

Jenkins - Pickett - Kampman
Chillar - Barnett - Bishop - Hawk

Jenkins would be a good fit, we would have to get rid of some DTs and we don't have any true NTs. Barnett and Hawk would do well in the middle, but we don't really have any OLBs for the scheme, Chillar might do alright. You could arrange the LBs a number of ways.

This has been my pipe dream for awhile now. I really, really want it to happen but I know it wont.

Just get us a new DC!!!!!!
3-4 would require a ton more personnel changes. Hawk and Barnett would be ok ILBs and Poppinga could possibly be able to play the outside since he was a DE in college, but we'd need to get 2 rush backers for sure. Chillar could be ok as a backup inside, but he's not a 3-4 OLB in any way. I dont know if Pickett at NT would work, might be better off with Jolly there. Also, if we go to a 3-4, Kamp should get traded because he would be wasted in that scheme so might as well trade him to a 4-3 team as he'd have insane value and it'd be stupid to keep him and have him be just an ok 3-4 DE.

That being said, i think we should keep it a 4-3 and just need a new DC. Preferably someone who blitzes a ton more. Even the sacks we get are coverage sacks half the time. Get some freaking pressure and our secondary could really thrive.
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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Isn't Cole pretty stout? I imagine he could play as an NT, at least short term.

I agree though, the lack of 3-4 OLB's pretty much nullifies that possibility.
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Old 12-07-2008, 06:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
I'm all for moving to a 3-4 but we can't do it til we hit rock bottom. With the personnel we have we could do

Jenkins - Pickett - Kampman
Chillar - Barnett - Bishop - Hawk

Jenkins would be a good fit, we would have to get rid of some DTs and we don't have any true NTs. Barnett and Hawk would do well in the middle, but we don't really have any OLBs for the scheme, Chillar might do alright. You could arrange the LBs a number of ways.

This has been my pipe dream for awhile now. I really, really want it to happen but I know it wont.

Just get us a new DC!!!!!!
I'm sorry, but that'd be ridiculously stupid. Yeah we could do it with what we have, but we'd suck a lot. The players we have fit much better in a 4-3 than a 3-4 as they should obviously because none of them were drafted to be put into a 3-4. The only front 7 players on our team that I think would be good starters in a 3-4 are Cullen Jenkins and AJ Hawk. Kampman would be a complete waste in a 3-4. He's one of the best 4-3 DEs in the league, but switch him to a 3-4 and he'd be average at best. Barnett does not translate well at all to a 3-4. Brandon Chillar might be a half decent fit as an inside ILB, but he shouldn't be played there. Poppinga could play as a 3-4 OLB, but you need top level guys there if you want to have success with a 3-4 and our OLBs would be no where near good enough. Ryan Pickett has the size, but he wouldn't be an ideal NT. I think bf51 got it right tha Cole would be the best NT option until we'd find a real one. I don't think Johnny Jolly fits in anywhere. Justin Harrell hasn't made an impact in our current system and would be worse if we switched. Mike Montgomery, Jason Hunter, and Jeremy Thompson would be worthless.

There's just absolutely no reason to switch to a 3-4. Nothing is in place and even if we somehow picked up some key pieces, the players we currently have would be wasted. We have a lot of parts for a top 4-3 we just need to put them together and perhaps get a couple upgrades.
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by umphrey View Post
I'm all for moving to a 3-4 but we can't do it til we hit rock bottom. With the personnel we have we could do

Jenkins - Pickett - Kampman
Chillar - Barnett - Bishop - Hawk

Jenkins would be a good fit, we would have to get rid of some DTs and we don't have any true NTs. Barnett and Hawk would do well in the middle, but we don't really have any OLBs for the scheme, Chillar might do alright. You could arrange the LBs a number of ways.

This has been my pipe dream for awhile now. I really, really want it to happen but I know it wont.

Just get us a new DC!!!!!!
If we ever do switch to a 34 it would be like this

SPACE- Pickett/Harrell- Jenkins/Jolly
Poppinga/Hunter- Hawk/Bishop- Barnett/Chillar- SPACE/Thompson

Kampman wouldn't be as effective, imo, in a 34 as he is now. The space would be made for us to add too.

I would love to take the Steelers LB coach and make him our DC, but he might want to import a 34.
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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We dont have the players or coaches for 3-4. Is it that much more evident that we draft T now though?
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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I certainly hope we don't decide to waste Aaron Kampman in a 3-4.
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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3-4 will never happen
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Old 12-07-2008, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Green Bay is not moving to a 3-4 next season. No way.

Yes is really looks like Tauscher is gone for the season like packman said. I though he was gone this off season anyways, I'd say it's time to find some RT's in the draft now.
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/...er/index.shtml


Man ted could have some high picks to work with now. I'm also getting a feeling this season could be a blessing in disguise. Hopefully get some elite prospects and clean house on people like Sanders who need to go.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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Default Solving our Defense

I'm still amazed that so many people (not all of course) act like the world is coming to an end and act like the Packers are a terrible team. They are not.

I pointed out after last year that there were 4 or 5 games last year that easily could have gone as losses instead of wins. One bad ref call or one unlucky bounce, and we could have lost all those games. This year it has been a total 180. Obviously.

Our offense, as a whole, is just as good as last year except the OL has been shakier. Their run blocking has been pretty close to 07, but the pass protection has had some serious lapses. Chad Clifton is showing how important he is because his penalties and sacks allowed have been disasterous this season.

However, if our defense was the Steelers, or the Ravens defense, we would still be 12-3 or 13-2 RIGHT NOW, maybe 14-1. Our offense is not a problem. It's about the #10 offense in the league currently, with a first-year starting QB and a shaky OL.

We need to fix the defense.

Why the crap can't we bring in a guy from Pittsburgh or Baltimore and bring that system to Green Bay? Those defenses, no matter who the players are, are always top 10 defenses, and usually top-3. See this year. And don't dismiss it and say it's cuz they have the greatest players. That's false. Yes Ray Lewis and Ed Reed are great, and so is Troy Polamalu. First of all, none of them were even top 10 picks, and second, those SYSTEMS have made stars of guys like Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas, Edgerton Hartwell even!

Hire one of their D-coaches and make him our D-coordinator.
Throw all the FA money at Albert Haynesworth, and make him the centerpiece NT of our new 3-4 aggressive defense. Overplay for big Al? Heck yah. The Vikings overpaid for Steve Hutchinson. They overpaid for Jared Allen too. Salaries keep going up so 2 years later, it will be par for the course.

Then draft Rey Maulaluga from USC. He's this year's Ray Lewis at LB. He's this year's Troy Polamalu as far as intensity is concerned. We need that.

Then, with our still-strong group of DBs, we'd have this:

DE- Jenkins, Harrell
NT- Haynesworth, Pickett
DE- Kampman, Bowen

OLB- Barnett
ILB- Maulaluga
ILB- Bishop
OLB- Hawk, Chillar

Gone will be Poppinga
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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I'm still amazed that so many people (not all of course) act like the world is coming to an end and act like the Packers are a terrible team. They are not.

I pointed out after last year that there were 4 or 5 games last year that easily could have gone as losses instead of wins. One bad ref call or one unlucky bounce, and we could have lost all those games. This year it has been a total 180. Obviously.

Our offense, as a whole, is just as good as last year except the OL has been shakier. Their run blocking has been pretty close to 07, but the pass protection has had some serious lapses. Chad Clifton is showing how important he is because his penalties and sacks allowed have been disasterous this season.

However, if our defense was the Steelers, or the Ravens defense, we would still be 12-3 or 13-2 RIGHT NOW, maybe 14-1. Our offense is not a problem. It's about the #10 offense in the league currently, with a first-year starting QB and a shaky OL.

We need to fix the defense.

Why the crap can't we bring in a guy from Pittsburgh or Baltimore and bring that system to Green Bay? Those defenses, no matter who the players are, are always top 10 defenses, and usually top-3. See this year. And don't dismiss it and say it's cuz they have the greatest players. That's false. Yes Ray Lewis and Ed Reed are great, and so is Troy Polamalu. First of all, none of them were even top 10 picks, and second, those SYSTEMS have made stars of guys like Joey Porter, James Harrison, Lamar Woodley, Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas, Edgerton Hartwell even!

Hire one of their D-coaches and make him our D-coordinator.
Throw all the FA money at Albert Haynesworth, and make him the centerpiece NT of our new 3-4 aggressive defense. Overplay for big Al? Heck yah. The Vikings overpaid for Steve Hutchinson. They overpaid for Jared Allen too. Salaries keep going up so 2 years later, it will be par for the course.

Then draft Rey Maulaluga from USC. He's this year's Ray Lewis at LB. He's this year's Troy Polamalu as far as intensity is concerned. We need that.

Then, with our still-strong group of DBs, we'd have this:

DE- Jenkins, Harrell
NT- Haynesworth, Pickett
DE- Kampman, Bowen

OLB- Barnett
ILB- Maulaluga
ILB- Bishop
OLB- Hawk, Chillar

Gone will be Poppinga
Kampman will get destroyed as a 34 DE, if we make a switch to a 34, we would have to lose Kampman and Barnett.

BTW, Hawk would be moved into the middle I don't understand why you would put him as an OLB in a 34.

Switching to a 34 would be a dumb move imo.
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Old 12-25-2008, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Kampman will get destroyed as a 34 DE, if we make a switch to a 34, we would have to lose Kampman and Barnett.

BTW, Hawk would be moved into the middle I don't understand why you would put him as an OLB in a 34.

Switching to a 34 would be a dumb move imo.
Kampman would not get destroyed as a 3-4 DE, it'd just be a complete waste.

The rest you covered pretty well.
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Old 12-25-2008, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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You don't NOT make a switch to a better system just because you want to cater to your best player, Kampman. Who cares? How's the system working with Kampman in it?

If you can trade him for a 1st or high-2nd round pick, take a pass rush OLB like a Lamar Woodley type, get pressure from both OLBers, and put in a decent bookend opposite Jenkins (who would be a great 34 DE), then you got something. This defense sucks, there's no sugar-coating it. The players are okay, the system sucks. The Steelers personnel on their front 7 is NOT any more talented than our guys are. They just employ a better system and I want that system. Blow this one up. Our DBs are way better than either the Steelers or Ravens are. We should be a top-5 defense easily with those DBs.

Desmond Bishop has the makings of a nasty 34 ILB.
I remember James Harrison before he was a star and Nick Barnett and AJ Hawk both have more talent than that guy has, and that guy's barely 6 foot tall. Hawk tested faster than him. I'm not sure about Barnett's speed anymore after the knee injury.
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Old 12-25-2008, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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You just don't understand football so I'm not even going to try and explain
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Old 12-25-2008, 08:35 PM    (permalink
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You don't NOT make a switch to a better system just because you want to cater to your best player, Kampman. Who cares? How's the system working with Kampman in it?

If you can trade him for a 1st or high-2nd round pick, take a pass rush OLB like a Lamar Woodley type, get pressure from both OLBers, and put in a decent bookend opposite Jenkins (who would be a great 34 DE), then you got something. This defense sucks, there's no sugar-coating it. The players are okay, the system sucks. The Steelers personnel on their front 7 is NOT any more talented than our guys are. They just employ a better system and I want that system. Blow this one up. Our DBs are way better than either the Steelers or Ravens are. We should be a top-5 defense easily with those DBs.

Desmond Bishop has the makings of a nasty 34 ILB.
I remember James Harrison before he was a star and Nick Barnett and AJ Hawk both have more talent than that guy has, and that guy's barely 6 foot tall. Hawk tested faster than him. I'm not sure about Barnett's speed anymore after the knee injury.
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Old 12-25-2008, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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You just don't understand football so I'm not even going to try and explain
If you're saying that the Packers defense wouldn't be better if it brought in the Steelers or Ravens system, then please DO go ahead and explain that logic for me, Einstein.

As far as not understanding football goes: you really have no idea if you are talking to me. I've watched every game almost, on the Sunday Ticket since 1994. I've seen the Packers play in person from Green Bay to Tampa Bay, St Louis to Dallas, Detroit to San Diego, Seattle to Arizona.

And I remember the Packers under the reigns of David Whitehurst, Randy Wright, Rich Campbell...... I suspect your first Packer QB of memory is either Favre or Majkowski.
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Old 12-25-2008, 08:47 PM    (permalink
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As far as not understanding football goes: you really have no idea if you are talking to me. I've watched every game almost, on the Sunday Ticket since 1994. I've seen the Packers play in person from Green Bay to Tampa Bay, St Louis to Dallas, Detroit to San Diego, Seattle to Arizona.

And I remember the Packers under the reigns of David Whitehurst, Randy Wright, Rich Campbell...... I suspect your first Packer QB of memory is either Favre or Majkowski.
None of that means ****. I can tell from reading 1 of your posts that you don't understand the game.
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Old 12-26-2008, 12:34 AM    (permalink
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It's true, no 4-3 team has ever been good at playing defense.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:02 AM    (permalink
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I like the 3-4 way more but it's just totally unfeasible to switch to it right now. Bring it up again when we have 3 or less wins
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:42 AM    (permalink
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It's true, no 4-3 team has ever been good at playing defense.
Wow, brilliant. Do you write jokes for Letterman or for Lenow?

Do you like our 4-3 defense? Yes or no?
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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I like the 3-4 way more but it's just totally unfeasible to switch to it right now. Bring it up again when we have 3 or less wins
Of course no switch right now. But as soon as that Lions game is over, you release Colonel Bob Sanders, and you work on hiring the guy from Pittsburgh or Baltimore that will take a promotion to become our DC, and you start pinpointing FA's and College players who are built for the 3-4. We need 2 pass-rushing studs at OLB, and we need another big DE. I'm not exactly sure which of our LBers would play best where in a 3-4. Geniuses like Kiper, McShay, Mayock, and the most brilliant of all, GB12, often act like they know exactly how every player will play in the future, but many times nobody knows until the right coach gets to them. And if the wrong coach gets to them (i.i. Sanders), then we have a guy like Hawk who people are calling a bust. I think in the right system, he can become the stud we all hoped for. Bob Sanders system was not that.

Plus the fact that no other NFC North teams play a 3-4 would give us an advantage, by the way, over the Queens and the Brrrrs.
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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Wow, brilliant. Do you write jokes for Letterman or for Lenow?

Do you like our 4-3 defense? Yes or no?
"Lenow"? Are you for serious?
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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The defense can be fixed without changing scheme. Some solid additions to the line is all we need. Implementing a 3-4 would take 2/3 years to do effectively and while we have not played well this year, there is no need to start a rebuilding effort.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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The defense can be fixed without changing scheme. Some solid additions to the line is all we need. Implementing a 3-4 would take 2/3 years to do effectively and while we have not played well this year, there is no need to start a rebuilding effort.
I disagree. That's the "band-aid" version you are talking about. The "patch-it-up" version. We have had the best set of DBs you could ever hope for, and we ever will have, the past 3 seasons, and yet we're basically an average defense. Some good streches and some bad.

This whole scheme needs to go.

As for it taking 2 to 3 years: Not true. Look at the Giants last year. They began the season with a totally new defensive scheme, brought to them by Steve Spagnola. He was the Eagles DB coach under Jim Johnson. Yes, the Giants struggled early last season, against Dallas and the Packers they got blown out. But we saw how good their defense was by mid-season and the end of the season.

And with the loss of Strahan AND Osi Umenyiora (neither played a down this year), their defense was still great this year so that shows that it wasn't just a matter of adding a good player here and there. It's the scheme. It's a good scheme coached by a good coach. Our DC is NOT a good coach. I don't know what it will take to convince some people of that. Bob Sanders NEVER deserved to be a D-coordinator.

Blow this scheme up, send Sanders down the road, and bring in the Steelers or Ravens system. What more do those 2 defenses have to do to convince you that those systems are the best?
Go 20 years of top-5 defenses instead of just the past 10 years?

Read last week's Sports Illustrated.
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