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Old 12-26-2008, 10:26 AM    (permalink
PACKmanN
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1. Changing schemes with players who haven't played under it will result in terrible play.

2. We have a perfect scheme with perfect players to run he scheme, just need a better DC to create a better playbook.


as you said we have a talented team. We would have to sort of rebuild the defense front 7 if we want to run a 34. Won't happen and it shouldn't. I can also throw a name in Sean McDermott
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Of our best front 7 guys, for sure 4 of them would be just as good, or better, on a 3-4.

Cullen Jenkins and AJ Hawk would be a lot better.
I think Ryan Pickett as a NT would be fantastic. He's bigger than the Steelers NT is. I believe Nick Barnett would be better in a 3-4. Justin Harrell would be a better 3-4 DE than he is a 4-3, but since he's always hurt, it doesn't matter. I don't know why Desmond Bishop isn't getting more playing time. He's shown a knack for the big play in his limited opps, and the mistakes he has made can be fixed with more playing time. In this crappy season, this is the perfect time for those learning opps.

With our salary cap space, or high draft picks, and our 5-10 record, there's no better time than now to move in a new defensive scheme. There's no better time than THIS off-season.
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Old 12-26-2008, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AtariBigby View Post
Of our best front 7 guys, for sure 4 of them would be just as good, or better, on a 3-4.

Cullen Jenkins and AJ Hawk would be a lot better.
I think Ryan Pickett as a NT would be fantastic. He's bigger than the Steelers NT is. I believe Nick Barnett would be better in a 3-4. Justin Harrell would be a better 3-4 DE than he is a 4-3, but since he's always hurt, it doesn't matter. I don't know why Desmond Bishop isn't getting more playing time. He's shown a knack for the big play in his limited opps, and the mistakes he has made can be fixed with more playing time. In this crappy season, this is the perfect time for those learning opps.

With our salary cap space, or high draft picks, and our 5-10 record, there's no better time than now to move in a new defensive scheme. There's no better time than THIS off-season.
Cullen Jenkins is an all pro at DE in a 43
AJ Hawk can't break through linemen, imagine him in a 34
I doubt Pickett would do anything in a 34, size doesn't mean anything
Barnett would be horrible in a 34, he would be thrown around by other teams OT
Harrell is a much better prospect at DT then DE
Bishop is slow and would have a hard time in coverage, that is why he not starting.

Why would we want to go threw another scheme change...I still remember the ZBS attempt

you can not say they would be better if they haven't played in one....
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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I agree that our defense would be better in a 3-4 considering our DBs we already have but I think it would take more than just this offseason to switch systems. I like the 34 more than the 43 but our players aren't right for it IMO. Our LBs are too slow on the outside. There's only certain things holding us back from the 34.

1. A new defensive coaching staff. We'd have to get rid of our DC, DL, and LB coach.
2. Our Linebackers.
3. Aaron Kampman.
4. Justin Harrell.
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Old 12-26-2008, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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I agree that our defense would be better in a 3-4 considering our DBs we already have but I think it would take more than just this offseason to switch systems. I like the 34 more than the 43 but our players aren't right for it IMO. Our LBs are too slow on the outside. There's only certain things holding us back from the 34.

1. A new defensive coaching staff. We'd have to get rid of our DC, DL, and LB coach.
2. Our Linebackers.
3. Aaron Kampman.
4. Justin Harrell.
Which is basically the whole defense. I don't know why we have to go through this so much, but we are not in any way a team that can make an easy transition to a 3-4. I don't feel like going through this all again, so I'll just repost what I wrote earlier this month.
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I'm sorry, but that'd be ridiculously stupid. Yeah we could do it with what we have, but we'd suck a lot. The players we have fit much better in a 4-3 than a 3-4 as they should obviously because none of them were drafted to be put into a 3-4. The only front 7 players on our team that I think would be good starters in a 3-4 are Cullen Jenkins and AJ Hawk. Kampman would be a complete waste in a 3-4. He's one of the best 4-3 DEs in the league, but switch him to a 3-4 and he'd be average at best. Barnett does not translate well at all to a 3-4. Brandon Chillar might be a half decent fit as an inside ILB, but he shouldn't be played there. Poppinga could play as a 3-4 OLB, but you need top level guys there if you want to have success with a 3-4 and our OLBs would be no where near good enough. Ryan Pickett has the size, but he wouldn't be an ideal NT. I think bf51 got it right tha Cole would be the best NT option until we'd find a real one. I don't think Johnny Jolly fits in anywhere. Justin Harrell hasn't made an impact in our current system and would be worse if we switched. Mike Montgomery, Jason Hunter, and Jeremy Thompson would be worthless.

There's just absolutely no reason to switch to a 3-4. Nothing is in place and even if we somehow picked up some key pieces, the players we currently have would be wasted. We have a lot of parts for a top 4-3 we just need to put them together and perhaps get a couple upgrades.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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You guys think you need All-Pro DE's to make this work?
You think you also need All-Pro ILB's to make this work?

Name the Steelers DL, other than NT Casey Hampton. Name their 2 ILBers.
Cullen Jenkins would be a beast at DE in a 3-4. He'd be better there than Kampman is NOW in our 4-3.

3 or 4 new starters, via FA or high draft picks, plus a real D-coordinator with a proven system, would not be a bad thing. Some growing pains, sure, just like the Giants in the first part of 2007. It was worth it in the end for them wasn't it?

Do you like the Packers defense you see this year, or last year against Dallas?

Shoot higher. Reach for the stars, not the clouds.
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Old 12-26-2008, 02:58 PM    (permalink
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I'm all for getting rid of Sanders as our DC, but changing the system to a 3-4 is not the answer. Remember our defense before Jenkins got hurt? We are 1-2 D-linemen away from being a top defense. If we can get another pass rushing DE to rotate with Jenkins that alone would contribute greatly to our defense. Another run stuffer in the middle wouldn't hurt either.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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You guys think you need All-Pro DE's to make this work?YET WE HAVE 2 AT DE...
You think you also need All-Pro ILB's to make this work?YET WE HAVE 2...

Name the Steelers DL, other than NT Casey Hampton. Name their 2 ILBers.
Cullen Jenkins would be a beast at DE in a 3-4. He'd be better there than Kampman is NOW in our 4-3.

3 or 4 new starters, via FA or high draft picks, plus a real D-coordinator with a proven system, would not be a bad thing. Some growing pains, sure, just like the Giants in the first part of 2007. It was worth it in the end for them wasn't it?

Do you like the Packers defense you see this year, or last year against Dallas?

Shoot higher. Reach for the stars, not the clouds.
just stop...

If the 34 fixes everything then that should be everyone's solution to fixing a defense then...
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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Ryan Pickett has the size, but he wouldn't be an ideal NT. I think bf51 got it right tha Cole would be the best NT option until we'd find a real one. I don't think Johnny Jolly fits in anywhere. Justin Harrell hasn't made an impact in our current system and would be worse if we switched. Mike Montgomery, Jason Hunter, and Jeremy Thompson would be worthless.
#1- Pickett would be an ideal NT. He's perfect for a NT.

#2- Don't tell me you're too afraid to make the upgrade at DC/Defense because you don't want to ruin what you're gettting currently from Justin Harrell, Mike Montgomery, Jason Hunter, and Jeremy Thompson. Those guys are all worthless and are easily upgradable in FA and our first 4 draft picks.

Jeremy Thompson hasn't come close to sniffing one sack as a 3-4 DE. He was a carefully-chosen draft pick of TT, just like Justin Harrell was.
I think he has some potential though, but you still don't NOT make an upgrade to a system/team because one or two guys, three, etc. don't fit the style as the corrent FAILING system does. It's a no-brainer.

Change it, or lose again. We've already wasted 3 great years from Charles Woodson and have wasted Donald Driver, Mark Tauscher, Al Harris, and Chad Clifton's final good seasons of their career. If it was me, I would have hired Rex Ryan in 2005 from Baltimore. He had already had 6 years in that system.

But I think we went with a promotion from within there, AS ALWAYS, with Bob Slowik.
We've had Donatel, Slowik, Bates, and Sanders. That system sucks compared to the Steelers/Ravens system. You guys see the Broncos defense now under Slowik? How's it working there? Crappy that's how.

Naive fans always blame the players, lack of talent, but it's the system. Our DBs are great. Hawk and Barnett are 1st round picks. Pickett is a 1st round pick. Kampman is a Pro Bowler. Cullen Jenkins is potentially a Pro Bowler. It's not a lack of talent.

The Ravens and Steelers get injuries just like everybody else, but somehow they are almost always in the top 5 for overall defenses. Imagine how nice that would be if our offense didn't need to score 31+ to win very week.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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Jesus Christ this is such a stupid and lazy argument.

The Cleveland Browns and San Francisco 49'ers ran the 3-4 too. How'd that work out for them?

The Steelers and Ravens have elite defenses because they draft incredibly well. Mike Nolan and Marvin Lewis left Baltimore and neither of their defenses could do ****. This ultra talented defense you think the Packers have doesn't exist.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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#1- Pickett would be an ideal NT. He's perfect for a NT.

#2- Don't tell me you're too afraid to make the upgrade at DC/Defense because you don't want to ruin what you're gettting currently from Justin Harrell, Mike Montgomery, Jason Hunter, and Jeremy Thompson. Those guys are all worthless and are easily upgradable in FA and our first 4 draft picks.

Jeremy Thompson hasn't come close to sniffing one sack as a 3-4 DE. He was a carefully-chosen draft pick of TT, just like Justin Harrell was.
I think he has some potential though, but you still don't NOT make an upgrade to a system/team because one or two guys, three, etc. don't fit the style as the corrent FAILING system does. It's a no-brainer.

Change it, or lose again. We've already wasted 3 great years from Charles Woodson and have wasted Donald Driver, Mark Tauscher, Al Harris, and Chad Clifton's final good seasons of their career. If it was me, I would have hired Rex Ryan in 2005 from Baltimore. He had already had 6 years in that system.

But I think we went with a promotion from within there, AS ALWAYS, with Bob Slowik.
We've had Donatel, Slowik, Bates, and Sanders. That system sucks compared to the Steelers/Ravens system. You guys see the Broncos defense now under Slowik? How's it working there? Crappy that's how.

Naive fans always blame the players, lack of talent, but it's the system. Our DBs are great. Hawk and Barnett are 1st round picks. Pickett is a 1st round pick. Kampman is a Pro Bowler. Cullen Jenkins is potentially a Pro Bowler. It's not a lack of talent.

The Ravens and Steelers get injuries just like everybody else, but somehow they are almost always in the top 5 for overall defenses. Imagine how nice that would be if our offense didn't need to score 31+ to win very week.
wow, what a smart move, switch to a scheme when we don't have players for, then spend money on FA and our first day draft picks to build the scheme and think everything will be better....

I'm going to say this the last time, we spent too much of our cap on this defense to be build as a 43 defense, it is not as easy to rebuild it and take the hit then overpay for free agents....it doesn't work like that. Why don't you check how long it took the Ravens and Steelers to have all the pieces together.....

We have a strong core for a 43 to switch to a 34, that would be dumb.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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just stop...

If the 34 fixes everything then that should be everyone's solution to fixing a defense then...
Because too many people are lazy or scared, it doesn't work that way.
But if you can deny that the Steelers, Ravens, and Patriots have been basically the best 3 defenses of this decade, then I guess you can deny that the 3-4 works better.

I can't deny it because I bet on those guy's games all the time, and I have seen the results over the past 6-8 seasons in today's NFL.

I also see our results. Unless you are telling me that every single one of our 4 DC's in the past 7 years was bad, then either A) the system sucks or B) the players suck or C) the players suck because the GM mis-evaluates the talent all the time. You choose which.

Because we have never been a top 1, 5, even top 10 defense. Last year was as close as we'll come because we were extraordinarily healthy.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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You guys think you need All-Pro DE's to make this work?
You think you also need All-Pro ILB's to make this work?

Name the Steelers DL, other than NT Casey Hampton. Name their 2 ILBers.
Cullen Jenkins would be a beast at DE in a 3-4. He'd be better there than Kampman is NOW in our 4-3.

3 or 4 new starters, via FA or high draft picks, plus a real D-coordinator with a proven system, would not be a bad thing. Some growing pains, sure, just like the Giants in the first part of 2007. It was worth it in the end for them wasn't it?

Do you like the Packers defense you see this year, or last year against Dallas?

Shoot higher. Reach for the stars, not the clouds.
That's funny, it turns out that's really all we need to turn the defense we have now into a great one...
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Jesus Christ this is such a stupid and lazy argument.

The Cleveland Browns and San Francisco 49'ers ran the 3-4 too. How'd that work out for them?

The Steelers and Ravens have elite defenses because they draft incredibly well. Mike Nolan and Marvin Lewis left Baltimore and neither of their defenses could do ****. This ultra talented defense you think the Packers have doesn't exist.
You refuted yourself there bearsfan, and you don't have to call me Jesus, and why are you always in our forum and not the Bears one? We don't play you until 2009 again.

Mike Nolan and Marvin Lewis both were successful as DCs. When the became head coaches, they did NOT run the everyday defenses. They appointed different guys to run their defenses. They all failed. It's the same with Romeo Crennel in Cleveland. And get this, it was also the same with Buddy Ryan and Dick LeBeau, the Steelers DC. Ryan and Lebeau were both FAILURES as head coaches.

LeBeau went back and became a DC again, and you see the results in Pittsburgh. You try and chalk it up to blind luck, or say they are exceptional talents. That's crap.

Go from #1-#11 on that Steelers defense and you won't find any guys drafted higher than AJ Hawk or Charles Woodson were. Barnett and Pickett were also 1st round picks and Kampman and Harris and Collins are Pro Bowlers and many think Cullen Jenkins could be. Oh, and Justine Harrell also was taken higher than guys like Casey Hampton and James Harrison and LaMar Woodley and Joey Porter.

To just pretend like they got the good players and we have crappy players is just ignorant. There's no magic powder in Pittsburgh. It's their system and it's Dick LeBeau's system.

Our defensive system has sucked under now 4 straight coordinators. Not dead-last #32 suck, but average at best. That's not good enough, as we see on the field. Blow it up. If Kampman is that great, then cash him in for a 1st round draft pick like the Chiefs did to the Vikings for Jared Allen.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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You are honestly making the case that because the Packers players were drafted before the Steelers players they must be better.

That. Is. Classic.
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Old 12-26-2008, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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You are honestly making the case that because the Packers players were drafted before the Steelers players they must be better.

That. Is. Classic.
yeah. obviously the higher you're drafted, the better you are. JUST ASK THE GUY WITH THE ATARI BIGBY USER NAME!!!!

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Old 12-26-2008, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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Old 12-26-2008, 06:52 PM    (permalink
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Change doesn't always = success does it, ask Detroit and Matt Millen. They stuck with it year after year after year, even though the fans knew about 4 years sooner than the clown was actually fired.
Band-Aids might equal temporary relief, but they don't cure anything. Our defense has pretty much 'stayed the course' for 6 seasons. A few tweaks here and there.

As far the claim that the higher they're drafted means the better they are: It's not true, not always.

Just like your claim that the reason the Steelers defense is better has to be beause their players are better. That's also false.

They just run a better system. Under a better D-coordinator. They draft and sign the type of athlete that they think can fit into their system. Ted has drafted the type of soft athletes he thinks can fit into Sanders system. How's that working out on the front 7 for us? How's that working out on the OL for us?

It's like Toyota vs Ford. You're philosophy is saying that their employees on the ground for the past 30 years are all better than the Americans over here. Toyota just reported their FIRST EVER quarterly loss by the way. Ford has been going down the tubes for years. You would have me believe it is because of their employees doing the actual work compared to ours.

The fact of the matter is their system is better, while Ford's sucks.

Our defensive coordinator is atrocious. It's pretty simple.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Jesus Christ (and I'm not calling you it), who are you to decide where everyone can and can't go on this forum? BF is fine coming in here, much like any other fan of any other team, as long as they are adding to an overall intelligent discussion instead of posting stupid rival **** talk. Anyways...

Yep, we have a bad year and all of a sudden we need to ditch the system that we've brought talent in for years now and start from scratch. Obviously that is the answer. In fact, lets trade everyone who has some value and start building the systems that are working best this year. And when we suck next year and our new systems don't work, we can do it all over again!

Seriously, this isn't Madden.
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Old 12-26-2008, 07:39 PM    (permalink
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Did I tell the Bears fan not to come in here?
Or did I ask him WHY he was in here all the time?
You must still be a student, college or high school.

If you want more of the same, then fine, keep the same system again..... tell Bob Sanders to coach a little better.
Tell his players to try a little harder and be a little smarter. Perhaps, if he yells more, it will all be fixed next year.

Good idea. We'd hate to have to jettison guys like Brady Poppinga, Colin Cole, Justin Harrell, Brandon Chillar, Mike Montgomery because they're such good guys. I'd hate to replace them with some new blood fit for the 3-4. Bring em all back and cross your fingers that Jenkins doesn't get hurt again, because remember our defense was great in weeks 1-4 when CJ was still healthy, right?
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Old 12-26-2008, 08:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AtariBigby View Post
Go from #1-#11 on that Steelers defense and you won't find any guys drafted higher than AJ Hawk or Charles Woodson were. Barnett and Pickett were also 1st round picks and Kampman and Harris and Collins are Pro Bowlers and many think Cullen Jenkins could be. Oh, and Justine Harrell also was taken higher than guys like Casey Hampton and James Harrison and LaMar Woodley and Joey Porter.
How does where you were drafted effect anything? David Carr > Tom Brady !! Terrible argument dude.
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Old 12-26-2008, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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How does where you were drafted effect anything? David Carr > Tom Brady !! Terrible argument dude.
I tell you what, you give me the first round (32 picks), and I will give you the 2nd-7th rounds then (192 picks) and I bet you my team ends up a lot better than your team, even though you have 160 more picks than I do. For every Tom Brady, I'll give you a Marino or Elway or Aikman or Manning. Or another Manning.

Besides that being true, that's not my point. My point is the Steelers system, and throw in the Ravens system, THRIVES/DOMINATES because of the system. NOT because of the pristine talent that they unearth at picks #27 and #24 all the time.

Steelers/Ravens a consistent dominant defense because of magical drafting or a great system/coaching/fundamentals? Anyone....?

PS, David Carr and Joey Harrington went #1 & #3 overall in the famous 1999 draft, that had:
Julius Peppers, #2
John Henderson, #9, U of Tennessee
Dwight Freeney, #11
Albert Haynesworth, #15, U of Tennessee (how good was that DL for the Vols)
Ed Reed, #24
Brian Westbrook, #91

What a phenomenal class other than the 2 clown, overrated, QB's

http://www.databasefootball.com/draf...lg=nfl&yr=2002
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Old 12-27-2008, 02:59 AM    (permalink
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Person with the boner for a 3-4, hate to break it to you but we aren't switching to it. So save your time and stop filling every page with 3-4 talk because it isn't happening.
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Old 12-27-2008, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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Person with the boner for a 3-4, hate to break it to you but we aren't switching to it. So save your time and stop filling every page with 3-4 talk because it isn't happening.
Oh yeah, well tell us: what will be happening?
What changes will we see on the defensive coaching staff starting with Bob Sanders?


Now, onto another topic where I knew better than our GM (just like in 1998 with Randy Moss being passed by us, and in 1989 when Barry Sanders was passed over by us):

Here's an old article about Justin Harrell by Lenny Pasqarelli. He mentioned that many of WE THE FANS were very displeased with the pick at the time. But that arrogant, God-complex, GM felt he could work draft-magic so he swung for the center field fence.


Packers, first-round pick Harrell agree to six-year deal
By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com


July 28, 2007
GREEN BAY - The Green Bay Packers reached a contract agreement late Friday night with first-round draft pick Justin Harrell, the former University of Tennessee defensive tackle who their coaches feel can be a dominating interior player, ESPN.com has learned.
Harrell will sign a six-year contract that voids to five seasons if he reaches certain playing time levels, agent Eugene Parker confirmed. The deal has a maximum value of just under $15 million and slightly more than $8 million in guarantees.

Parker, who wrapped up the negotiations just before midnight, and following a long day of bargaining, lauded the professionalism and creativity of Green Bay vice president Andrew Brandt in helping craft the deal. "He deserves a lot of credit," Parker said.

Green Bay officials were criticized by some of their fans for the selection of Harrell with the 16th overall pick in April. But Harrell is a player whose stock rose dramatically in the weeks leading up to the draft (yeah, in the weight room and track fields, NOT on the football field where he rarely was and where he rarely sniffed the QB), and he is a player with a tremendous upside.
The concerns about Harrell, a standout tight end and basketball forward in high school, come from the fact he missed considerable time because of injuries during his Vols' career.

Two major setbacks, a broken right ankle that required surgery in 2003 and a torn bicep that limited him to just three games in 2006, marred his college career. Most talent evaluators felt that, without issues about his durability, Harrell might have been a top 10 selection. (Yeah, well, if I was a foot taller, I would have made $50 million in the NBA too)

Because of the injuries, Harrell appeared in just 35 games in four seasons. He registered 85 tackles and four sacks.
Harrell has very good size (6-feet-4 , 300 pounds), but can probably afford to add more weight to his frame. Surprisingly fluid for his size, Harrell can be a disruptive defender for stretches of games, but probably needs to develop more consistency. He is expected to be a part of the Packers' tackle rotation as a rookie.

Senior writer Len Pasquarelli covers the NFL for ESPN.com
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Old 12-27-2008, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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AtariBigby, if you knew better than Thompson on Harrell and know for a fact that the 3-4 will win us every super bowl for the next 20-30 years then I suggest you march up to the Packers Front Office and try to convince them. Spewing your worthless 34 talk around on this forum is not going to change the system, no matter how many posts you have dedicated to it. Actually, get a HC job somewhere.
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