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Old 01-04-2009, 12:44 AM    (permalink
AtariBigby
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It doesn't matter if we the fans are for it, or against it.
Until we see who our next coordinator is going to be, or if it's going to still be Colonel Sanders, then it's open for debate.

As far as "you don't go switching schemes in the middle of a building process" goes. You tell me, when do you switch schemes? When a defense has 3 dominant years with medicore talent, or has 3 average years with above-average talent?

I don't know exactly what the answer is. It could be the next guy from Philly. But I do know that Sanders ain't the answer. He's part of the problem and it's not because he doesn't care or doesn't try.

I was impressed by the Chargers defense tonight and that despite not having their only good pass rusher, Merriman.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:25 AM    (permalink
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Wow, I just saw this stat in the paper.... this is the perfect thing to show how terrible our DL really was. Yuck. Gerald McCoy would really be a welcome addition.

Cullen Jenkins-
Combination end/tackle was off to a torrid start with 2 sacks and 10 pressures until a torn pectoral muscle ended his season after only four games. Finished second on the team in pressures despite missing the final 12 games.


That is really disgusting. We lose one good DL like Jenkins, and we become the Minnesota Gophers DL? Maybe that's why I want to go to a 3-4 so that we only need to play 3 of em instead of throw 4 of em out there.
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Old 01-04-2009, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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Wow, I just saw this stat in the paper.... this is the perfect thing to show how terrible our DL really was. Yuck. Gerald McCoy would really be a welcome addition.

Cullen Jenkins-
Combination end/tackle was off to a torrid start with 2 sacks and 10 pressures until a torn pectoral muscle ended his season after only four games. Finished second on the team in pressures despite missing the final 12 games.


That is really disgusting. We lose one good DL like Jenkins, and we become the Minnesota Gophers DL? Maybe that's why I want to go to a 3-4 so that we only need to play 3 of em instead of throw 4 of em out there.
I know some people are tired of this discussion but I'll address this.

It is true that you only need to account for 3 DL in the 3-4 scheme, but the main key is the NT and I don't think the Packers have someone who could fill that void successfully in the 3-4. Can Ryan Pickett? Possibly but he didn't impress me too much in comparison to years past. BJ Raji will be available at the 9th pick so we would be able to address the need there, but if we take him then we're left with a big contract DT that will be a backup and taking up cap space. Who translates to 3-4 DE? Justin Harrell might but he never stays healthy and we can't rely on him. Cullen Jenkins would probably be our best option at 3-4 end, but it's hard to tell because this team is built for 4-3. Moving past the line, do we have the LBs capable of a 3-4? I would say hell no. Looking inside Barnett and Hawk are nice LBs but Barnett is the only one on the roster that could be considered "impact." You look at other teams that use the 3-4 and do it well, Pittsburgh and Baltimore, they have an impact LB inside, Farrior and Ray Lewis, and then they have sick pass rushers at OLB. Brady Poppinga and Jeremy Thompson/Aaron Kampman(?) would currently be slotted as leading candidates if we made that move. Now look at a LB corp of Thompson-Hawk-Barnett-Poppinga, they lack a big time impact inside and definitely miss rush off of the edge; not missing one piece of a successful 3-4 LB corp but both. The personnel on this squad is far from capable of transitioning to a 3-4, and the financial investments in alot of our DL and LBs makes it even more difficult to consider the move.
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Old 01-04-2009, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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In other words, our personnel on the DL and LB is currently crappy in a 4-3 and a 3-4 scheme. That sounds like bad drafting and bad financial decisions.
Justin Harrell has robbed the Packer bank. He should be charged with Grand Theft for his 2 years of extortion.
Not quite as bad as Joe Johnson was though.
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Old 01-04-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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In other words, our personnel on the DL and LB is currently crappy in a 4-3 and a 3-4 scheme. That sounds like bad drafting and bad financial decisions.
Justin Harrell has robbed the Packer bank. He should be charged with Grand Theft for his 2 years of extortion.
Not quite as bad as Joe Johnson was though.
The front seven has depth and pretty good talent when healthy but outside of Aaron Kampman it lacks a true impact player.
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Old 01-04-2009, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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Cullen Jenkins-
Combination end/tackle was off to a torrid start with 2 sacks and 10 pressures until a torn pectoral muscle ended his season after only four games. Finished second on the team in pressures despite missing the final 12 games.


That is really disgusting. We lose one good DL like Jenkins, and we become the Minnesota Gophers DL? Maybe that's why I want to go to a 3-4 so that we only need to play 3 of em instead of throw 4 of em out there.
I wouldn't call that depth, or pretty talented.
I'd call those guys (other than Kampman and CJ) just "bodies".
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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Suggs would be a DE if he was put into a system like ours.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:28 PM    (permalink
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Suggs would be a DE if he was put into a system like ours.
And I think he'd do fine. He weighs 260 pounds, and I think he could go up to 270 in a 4-3 and not lose his PR skills. I know how much ya'all love this topic, but if TT actually plucked T-Sizzle from the Ravens, the Packers could seriously think about a 3-4 and they could bring in a new DC to do it. AK, Pickett (maybe trade down a bit for BJ Raji), Jenkins and then Chillar, Hawk, Barnett, and T-Sizzle, with B-Pop and the rest rounding it out. If you sign a guy like Suggs, you look at how best to make him most effective. Maybe he'd be even better as a 4-3 DE than he is now as a 3-4 OLB, but maybe you change your scheme to get all your playmakers on the field.
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Old 01-04-2009, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...-fire-sanders/

YYYYYEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!


Also, please shu tup and let the 3-4 talk go. Its not ******* happening.
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:35 AM    (permalink
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The possible DC candidates available are absolutely amazing this year. I want Haslett, but Nolan or a few others would be great too. Getting rid of Bates was my #1 want for the Packers offseason.

I like the way this regime has little tolerance for failure. It seems like we get rid of coaches and players as soon as we can when they have shown they can't do the job.

I can't be sure we won't go to a 3-4 with this news. It's possible we move towards the direction of a 4-3 3-4 hybrid.
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Old 01-05-2009, 08:51 AM    (permalink
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The possible DC candidates available are absolutely amazing this year. I want Haslett, but Nolan or a few others would be great too. Getting rid of Bates was my #1 want for the Packers offseason. YOU MEAN SANDERS

I like the way this regime has little tolerance for failure. It seems like we get rid of coaches and players as soon as we can when they have shown they can't do the job.

I can't be sure we won't go to a 3-4 with this news. It's possible we move towards the direction of a 4-3 3-4 hybrid.
You can't be sure, I can't be sure, the Green Bay Press Gazette guys can't be sure, the Milwaukee Journal guys Bob McGinn can't be sure, Greg Bedard can't be sure, even McCarthy is not yet sure, but yet we have a couple kids in here WHO ARE 100% SURE that there's no chance this team evolves away from a 4-3. Isn't that amazing. We should be paying a few of these posters in here who know it all.
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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All signs pointing to Mike Nolan, who wants to bring in his own guys. If Winston Moss was going to be the new DC, he wouldn't have had all the other coaches fired because how and where is Moss gonna bring in a total new staff from.

Who else would Nolan bring in? Anyone leftover from his defensive staff on Baltimore?
If Nolan was brought in I could see Mike Pettine coming over from Baltimore to work with Mike. Dennis Thurman is another coach who could join Nolan.

I could see this....

DL coach : Phil Zacharias
LB coach : Mike Pettine/Winston Moss
DB coach : Dennis Thurman
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Old 01-05-2009, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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How does anything there equate all signs point to Nolan? He's a possibility, but far from the only canidate.
He's the front-runner as we speak, according to most.
Nobody said there are no other candidates, however.
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Old 01-05-2009, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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He's the front-runner as we speak, according to most.
such as? without a source, this statement is pretty baseless.

also, what about rod marinelli? bad as a head coach..but, by all accounts a great defensive mind.
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Old 01-05-2009, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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Also, please shu tup and let the 3-4 talk go. Its not ******* happening.
I would have agreed with you until today when all the defense coaches were fired. I still think a 3-4 is a long way away however after today it's more likely.
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Old 01-06-2009, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Who has an intelligent answer for this?
Any of you guys ever play basketball?
I did.

In basketball, most defenses call plays. Sometimes they man-up, sometimes they play a zone.
A 2-3, a 2-1-2, a box & 1, etc.
The MIX IT UP.

Remember when Al Harris got BBQ'd by Plaxico when we lost the NFC Title game? The rest of our defense was still good, but because Eli and the Gents KNEW our exact man-to-man pass defense over & over, once Plax got inside leverage, or outside leverage, it was like stealing from the blind.

Why can't a defense learn man-to-man AND a couple of effective zones, and mix it up and always keep the QB and WR's confused?
I can't imagine it's because football players are dumber than basketball players.

Also, football players have 6 days of practice/prep time for every 1 game. basketball is about 2 or 3 to 1.
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Old 01-06-2009, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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such as? without a source, this statement is pretty baseless.
http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/37126084.html
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Former San Francisco 49ers coach Mike Nolan looks like the leading candidate for the job



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Nolan, meanwhile, is an accomplished coordinator who left Baltimore to become San Francisco's head coach in 2005. He hired McCarthy to be his offensive coordinator and then allowed him to interview with Packers general manager Ted Thompson the next season.

Another factor with Nolan is whether the Packers would be willing to go to a 3-4 defense....... Said Cullen Jenkins: I have never played in one before....but if it's something that they decide to go with, it's your job. It would be my job to adjust to it and play my responsibilities and I'd do a good job in it."
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An assistant who is getting a lot of attention is Philadelphia secondary coach Sean McDermott, the current longest-tenured assistant under defensive coordinator Jim Johnson. McDermott, 34, would presumably run Johnson's blitz-happy scheme. The success of New York Giants defensive coordinator Steve Spagnuolo, another Johnson disciple, has helped his cause.
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Unless McDermott's contract expires after this season, the Eagles would have to give permission to the Packers to interview him. The Packers can't ask to speak to him until after the Eagles are done playing.
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Another 3-4 possibility would be Pittsburgh linebackers coach Keith Butler, who has been identified by some as a potential defensive coordinator. The Steelers would have to finish playing before Butler would be available for an interview.
- BUTLER is the guy I'd be happiest with. The Steelers always produce great from the LB position. James Harrison was not drafted and was CUT 4 different times. This SYSTEM turned him into a star. Our current system REQUIRES STARS on the DL. I'd much rather depend on a system that can produce stars then depend on TT to keep drafting and signing FA stars. How is that working out for his #1 picks on defense, Hawk and Harrell?
Hawk, Barnett, Poppinga, Chillar, even Bishop would have had big success if they were on the Steelers. We've wasted them. Hawk has similar size, speed and strength and more ability than James Harrison ever dreamt of. That's why he went to Kent St and was undrafted while AJ was the All American and #5 overall pick.
Bring Butler in to instill and install that Blittsburgh aggression. If you have to mix in a 4-3 and a 3-4 to do it, that's fine. Just start bringing the heat.


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Old 01-06-2009, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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3-4 vs 4-3

This is puzzling and if Nolan is brought in and institutes the 3-4 there will certainly be holes to fill. If a disciple of the Jim Johnson 4-3 blitzing scheme comes in we can certainly make do with the personnel we have with a few upgrades.

Line:

NT: Ryan Pickett perhaps doesn't have the size to play a 3-4 nose tackle. That role has to be filled by a monster of a man. Casey Hampton in Pittsburgh though is of similar size and has filled that role for years. Good news is that BJ Raji should be available when we pick in the draft. Colin Cole could fit a 3-4 NT as well.

DE: These guys are hybrids of a sort. Light DTs or heavy DEs. Kampman might be a bit on the light side and his sack totals would certainly suffer in this system, in theory rolling over to the OLB. Could Kampman play OLB? The way that guy works I wouldn't put it past him. He would be able to bulk up to 285-290 and fill this role but a 3-4 DE is a roleplayer not a glamour position. Cullen Jenkins has the size to be perfect for this role. Harrell, if he could get healthy and improve, might fit this role.

LB: The OLBs are your real pass rushers in this system. Light DEs or heavy LBs with speed in the 245-265 range. Poppinga might fit this role well as his pass rushing has been touted but would Hawk? Could Barnett and Hawk both fill the MLB spots? Is Barnett big enough? Could Hunter or Thompson adjust to filling one of the OLB spots? Where would Chillar fit? A good many questions concerning the LBs.

Secondary: My understanding is that a good deal of zone is generally played in the 3-4 while our current personnel is built for press coverage. Do we have the players for a effective Cover 2? The strong safety is a bit of a roamer as well most especially seen in Troy Polamalu. Bigby seems to love sticking his nose in and might flourish in this role.


I'd be interested in theory to see the Packers implement a 3-4 but there'd certainly be growing pains. The Ravens defenses under Nolan were outstanding and remain so but how much is personnel and how much is coaching? I have read that the Ravens D loved Nolan and loved playing for him. The Packers D last year lacked a killer instinct and a fiery D coordinator might be just what the doctor ordered.
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:27 AM    (permalink
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The Ravens defenses under Nolan were outstanding and remain so but how much is personnel and how much is coaching? I have read that the Ravens D loved Nolan and loved playing for him. The Packers D last year lacked a killer instinct and a fiery D coordinator might be just what the doctor ordered.
Well the Ravens have had 2 Hall of Famers the whole time in safety Ed Reed and LB Ray Lewis. That cannot be overestimated.

The Steelers have had Polamalu, but not for as long as the Ravens guys have been there.

Both teams have thrown in different guys as the pass-rushing OLB and turned them into stars. Same with the ILB position.

The Steelers 2 DEs are just lunch-pail guys. No need for marquee guys there per the Steelers success. Casey Hampton is good, but I think Pickett is very similar, even a bit larger. Both, ironically, were 1st round picks the same draft, I believe.

I don't see why Hawk can't succeed as a 3-4 OLB with his speed and size, compared to James Harrison. Hawk wowed everybody with his skills at the combine/his pro day. He's a legit talent and his well built. He's not gotten home a lot in our previous system, but has on occasion. Size & speed-wise, he compares favorably to Harrison.
It comes down to execution, which = system and desire, IMO.

I don't know about Barnett, plus the ACL is a ?
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Old 01-06-2009, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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The more I think about it the more I'm intrigued by the possibility. I think you might be spot on with Hawk. Perhaps he can fit the OLB spot more responsible for coverage and Chillar's also shown that ability.
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Old 01-06-2009, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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Well the Ravens have had 2 Hall of Famers the whole time in safety Ed Reed and LB Ray Lewis. That cannot be overestimated.

The Steelers have had Polamalu, but not for as long as the Ravens guys have been there.

Both teams have thrown in different guys as the pass-rushing OLB and turned them into stars. Same with the ILB position.

The Steelers 2 DEs are just lunch-pail guys. No need for marquee guys there per the Steelers success. Casey Hampton is good, but I think Pickett is very similar, even a bit larger. Both, ironically, were 1st round picks the same draft, I believe.

I don't see why Hawk can't succeed as a 3-4 OLB with his speed and size, compared to James Harrison. Hawk wowed everybody with his skills at the combine/his pro day. He's a legit talent and his well built. He's not gotten home a lot in our previous system, but has on occasion. Size & speed-wise, he compares favorably to Harrison.
It comes down to execution, which = system and desire, IMO.

I don't know about Barnett, plus the ACL is a ?
there is a huge different between Harrison and Hawk. Harrison can rush the passer and get off blockers why Hawk hasn't shown that yet...
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:27 PM    (permalink
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there is a huge different between Harrison and Hawk. Harrison can rush the passer and get off blockers why Hawk hasn't shown that yet...
And I don't buy that.
I don't think 100% of the fans in America and 100% of the scouts in America were that wrong.
If they were that wrong, then Hawk should have not been drafted at all, or else Harrison should have been a #5 overall pick.
Hawk didn't suddenly lose his ability. Harrison didn't magically put on 40 pounds or have the light bulb come on in his head. He got into that system at that position, and it works for him. He blossomed into a star, like Joey Porter was there.

Similar things have happened with the Ravens LBers other than Lewis. It made Edgerton Hartwell into a coveted FA.
Ravens fans know. They don't give a crap if they lose Bart Scott this off-season while most other team's fans thing Scott would be this magical upgrade. Have to realize it's the system, and the greatness of Lewis & Reed that make it easier for the others around them.

When our DL was good, it made our LBers look better. When our DL sucked like this year, it made our LBers look crappy.

In the Steelers system, I bet nobody here can even name the Steelers 2 starting DE's.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:37 PM    (permalink
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I think Hawk would be a nice surprise in a 3-4. He has the athletic ability and he had something like 10 sacks during his senior year at Ohio State.

Still, I'd be disappointed if we switched to a 3-4. A couple of impact players on the DL and the defense will be fine. A 3-4 would not fit our personnel and would take years to get right - we should not be rebuilding at this point.

Also the argument about the Steelers DEs in irrelevant - Aaron Smith is one of the best in the game. He gets quite a lot of love on this site as well. Yes the Steelers and Ravens seemingly churn out quality linebackers but they have had quality players on the DL as well, not a bunch of nobodies.
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Old 01-06-2009, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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When Hawk came out one of his cons was that he had trouble shedding and getting around blockers. 3-4 OLB's are primarily defensive ends in college, because they require those pass rushing skills. Hawk doesn't have the right pass rushing skills. I don't see Hawk being a good fit in the 3-4 at OLB, maybe move him inside in a 3-4. James Harrison has been in a 3-4 for 5 years. He watched and learned from the Joey Porter, and he worked hard to improve. If all that mattered were size and speed A.J. Hawk's college teammate and first round pick Bobby Carpenter would be just as good as DeMarcus Ware. Last I checked Carpenter was doing a solid job.. on the kickoff team. 4-3 OLB's struggle more to play the outside on a 3-4 than anybody because it's a completely different position.

I don't want the 3-4 however, because it eliminates the playmakers we already have. Kampman is too small to be a 3-4 DE now (though he did play at the right weight effectively early in his career), probably too slow and not skilled enough in coverage to be OLB. His best bet would be putting weight on and stuffing him at DE. If he were to become a 3-4 DE that would pretty much eliminate his playmaking ability, because 3-4 ends really don't do much.

I feel like Barnett has the chance to be really good in a 4-3, but his game is similar to Jonathan Vilma's (built on speed). Small, quick linebackers are not the right fit for a 3-4. I feel like Woodson would be able to adjust to zone, but I don't even want to see Al Harris try to change his physical style this late in his career.

I wouldn't be against the 3-4, because fundamentally, I like it more. But the Packers don't have the personnel to run it, and to pretend Brady Poppinga could be our DeMarcus Ware is not fair to Poppinga. We'd have to dedicate our draft to picking up 3-4 players.
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Old 01-06-2009, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AtariBigby View Post
And I don't buy that.
I don't think 100% of the fans in America and 100% of the scouts in America were that wrong.
If they were that wrong, then Hawk should have not been drafted at all, or else Harrison should have been a #5 overall pick.
Hawk didn't suddenly lose his ability. Harrison didn't magically put on 40 pounds or have the light bulb come on in his head. He got into that system at that position, and it works for him. He blossomed into a star, like Joey Porter was there.

Similar things have happened with the Ravens LBers other than Lewis. It made Edgerton Hartwell into a coveted FA.
Ravens fans know. They don't give a crap if they lose Bart Scott this off-season while most other team's fans thing Scott would be this magical upgrade. Have to realize it's the system, and the greatness of Lewis & Reed that make it easier for the others around them.

When our DL was good, it made our LBers look better. When our DL sucked like this year, it made our LBers look crappy.

In the Steelers system, I bet nobody here can even name the Steelers 2 starting DE's.
there is a huge difference in College offensive linemen and NFL offensive linemen. He has not proven he can get off of NFL offensive linemen and I'm not going to play the "what if" game.
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