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Old 01-20-2009, 12:40 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
First off, yes. Yes i do. I have a friend i knew since my freshman year at college that works at NFL films in South Jerz.

2nd of all, Moss prior to the Pats played with dog crap at qb, and had incredible years. So there goes that argument.

3rd, work ethic? Give me a break. Moss has one of the best work ethics in the league. And contrary to popular belief, he's one of the smartest players in the league. Even Brady said he's the smartest player he ever worked with. People think all the guy does is run straight. That just shows they don't know what theyre talking about. Playing WR in the NFL requires the ability to read defenses and adjust mid route. No one in the league does this better than Moss, which is why i find the "route running" argument laughable.

Ask any coach about Moss's route running. They'll tell you he's one of the best route runners in the game.

Hands are equal. Do i need to show you clips of some of the ridiculous catches Moss has made?

As far as inside catching goes, how do you know that? Moss is never asked to run those patterns because he's so dominant at what he does, he effects the defense more running deep than going inside. Thats what Welker is for. You can't fault someone for not doing something if theyre not asked to do it.

The ONLY knock on Moss was his lack of drive when his teams are terrible. And thats completely understandable.

But any other knocks to his game really are just fan talk.
Last time i checked, he did absolutely nothing in Oakland. His last year in Minnesota was crap, and prior to that he was playing with an All-Pro Daunte Culpepper and Randall Cunningham. Hardly "dog crap".

If Moss's work ethic is one of the best, then i guess Fitzgerald's has to be THE best. And not just when he got to a good team. He has his motor running 110% since his Pittsburgh days, and throughout the crappy years in Arizona. I hate how people see Moss in New England and think that's the way he was since he stepped into the league. I've closely followed the Vikings since my days as a kid, and i can honestly say that guy played when he felt like playing.

Hands are not equal. Not even close. Fitzgerald catches everything thrown his way. Moss makes the occasional acrobatic catch, and drops a short out route. How can you say that no one reads defenses better than Moss? That's equally as laughable as anything i or anyone else could say. Seriously.

And go back and listen to some of the things Oakland's coaching staff said about Moss's route running. There's no way that guy is one of the best. If he truly was great at doing everything, he wouldn't just run posts and streaks.

And the last one, that reaaaally got to me. How the hell is it understandable to play half assed when your team sucks? Please explain that one.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Plax top 5 lol you fall asleep at the keyboard

1. Larry Fitzgerald
2. Andre Johnson
3. Steve Smith
4. Randy Moss
5. Reggie Wayne
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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Last time i checked, he did absolutely nothing in Oakland. His last year in Minnesota was crap, and prior to that he was playing with an All-Pro Daunte Culpepper and Randall Cunningham. Hardly "dog crap".
I think its pretty obvious to everyone that Daunte and Randall are dog crap. The only reason why they looked remotely good to begin with was bc of Moss. Daunte is still playing Madden lobbing it up to Moss. You'll see the same result with Cassel. Moss made those guys look decent.

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If Moss's work ethic is one of the best, then i guess Fitzgerald's has to be THE best. And not just when he got to a good team. He has his motor running 110% since his Pittsburgh days, and throughout the crappy years in Arizona. I hate how people see Moss in New England and think that's the way he was since he stepped into the league. I've closely followed the Vikings since my days as a kid, and i can honestly say that guy played when he felt like playing.
Moss's work ethic is no different than Fitz. How has he maintained his athleticism over all these years? He studies just as much film as Fitz does, so you can't even go that route either. Physically theyre both in incredible shape and work on their bodies religiously, and both study tape and extremely smart players. So there goes that.

If you want to say Fitz has better character i won't argue that at all. but work ethic, youre way off.

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Hands are not equal. Not even close. Fitzgerald catches everything thrown his way. Moss makes the occasional acrobatic catch, and drops a short out route. How can you say that no one reads defenses better than Moss? That's equally as laughable as anything i or anyone else could say. Seriously.
Wait, let me guess. You figured all of this out after watching Fitz zomg kill the Eagles right? Give me a break.

And its laughable only bc you have no idea what you're talking about.

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And go back and listen to some of the things Oakland's coaching staff said about Moss's route running. There's no way that guy is one of the best. If he truly was great at doing everything, he wouldn't just run posts and streaks.

And the last one, that reaaaally got to me. How the hell is it understandable to play half assed when your team sucks? Please explain that one.
Of course Oakland is gonna say that. The man quit on their team. Theyre not gonna blow roses up his ass. They hate his guts.

And I never said what he did in Oakland was excusable. The same way what TO did everywhere is inexcusable. I still never hold that against the player. Ive said all along that TO is the 2nd best WR in this game (not anymore though) despite his antics. Moss is the best in the game, despite his.

I reread what i wrote, and i worded that last paragraph incorrectly. When i said its understandable, i meant the KNOCK against him is understandable. Not what he did.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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First off, Randy Moss WILL go down as the greatest most talented receiver physically to ever play the game.

As of right now though, the top 3 or easily;

1a. Larry Fitzgerald
1b. Andre Johnson
3. Calvin Johnson

Everybody else is on the same level.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm not so sure I'm ready to doubt Randy Moss not having the best hands. I think Larry is better right now, but Randy Moss is right there with him in a lot of categories. To me there's no clear cut winner




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Old 01-20-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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My list:

1. Randy Moss
2. Steve Smith
3. Larry Fitzgerald
4. Andre Johnson
5. Brandon Marshall

Guys like Megatron and White are still too green to get top 5 mention. Calvin needs to do it at least one more year before getting that recognition, especially since Detroit has no one else to throw to anyway. And White needs to show me one more year of dominance.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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i didn't realize how often dog crap could lead the league in passing, while moss was only catching 50 passes for around 750 yards (2004). culpepper wasn't "just" good that year because moss ran 11 players deep with him every play. culpepper WAS at one point a pretty good qb. he has since become dog crap. but let's not act like he's sucked for his entire career based on a few seasons and then act like moss is the best in spite of a few seasons.

like i said in another post, Moss doesn't need to catch a single pass to effect a game. the gameplan itself influences coverage so much that other guys get open because of him. he makes the entire offense better. I don't know how to grade Daunte without Moss, because the good years he had was with him. One year he played well without him for several games, but got figured out by defenses after that, and was never the same. Usually when a new scheme is implemented, qbs have success right away until defenses have enough tape to make adjustments, and that happened to Cullpepper. And he was never the same. Happened to Jason Campbell this year too, as another example.

can i assume we're either not talking about in game hustle or that you didn't watch him play this season? if my assumption is wrong, why did he repeatedly, as in, all season, quit on routes. and no, not just one or two all season. several per game. he would quit before cassel threw the ball, and then look disgusted that cassel didn't foresee his lack of effort on the pass when the ball sailed right to where moss would've been had he actually bothered sprinting.

i'm not in any position to comment on off-season work ethic, as i have literally no idea what he does (though it apparently works, the man should've slowed down at some point). but his in game work ethic is deplorable unless he feels like he's in a perfect situation (last year and a few years in minnesota).

yes, by work ethic i thought we were talking about offseason and monday through saturday. his issues on Sunday are more character issues to me, which i do not dispute.

i do want to say though, a lot of times it looks like he's dogging it but he's really not. the man just runs lazy, if that makes any sense. it could look like a jog but he's actually running. also a lot of times he jogs to set up his guy. so on tv it looks like he's "quitting" but he's not. he's accessing the defense, setting up his CB, then exploding through the hole in the zone at the right time. thats why i said people underestimate his route running. its not as bad as you think.


no argument whatsoever, although he barely runs anything that isn't *mostly* straight. he makes excellent adjustments to the coverage over the top, but i very rarely see a great cut to come back to the ball unless he's in the end zone.

see above

absolutely. it's not like we're discussing terrell owens.



not entirely true. i typically saw at least two to three short routes per game by moss. he ran the routes poorly, and usually failed to make a tough play. even if he did catch it, his first instinct is to fall down and avoid contact, even if he could gain substantial additional yardage by staying upright. that's not to say he never does (there was a hitch route, iirc, that's coming to mind from this season, where he was able to literally outrun everyone down the sideline), but he very rarely does.

i'll cede this

and yet not mirrored at all by most of the other receivers on the list. i don't see how you can be the best when you refuse to try for over half of your career. most talented? absolutely. inarguably. best? i guess it depends on your definition.


EDIT: to clarify, i watched every single patriots game this season and hated every minute of it.

i don't argue that there are more complete WRs out there, better character guys, guys who play more consistently. my reasoning for him being the best is bc of his impact. its not matched by anyone in this league. and for that reason, to me at least, he's the best.
responses in bold.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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Images do not prove ****.
Fine they don't, but you still have to be kidding me if you're going to say Randy Moss doesn't have some of the best hands in the game. That was the only thing i was trying to say.
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LaMarr Woodley, Norse God of Thunder/Baby Jesus/Killer of all things QB, set an NFL record by getting multiple sacks in three consecutive playoff games. Don't **** with LaMarr.
Pittsburgh Steelers....6 Time Champs!

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Old 01-20-2009, 01:48 PM    (permalink
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and to clarify why you would jog to "set up" your guy, let me explain.

its been my experience in my short time playing some CB (not professional) that the hardest guys to cover are these guys.

because 1, you don't know when theyre gonna make that burst, and its hard to adjust your body to the right position relative to their speed. you can't play too off, but you can't play too close. and if theyre much faster than you, they want to jog closer to you so when they do burst, they can burst past you, so you have to maintain your comfort level space at all times, even during this "jog"

and 2, they do this to try to pick you. they want to align your body in a way that another body gets in your way so they can explode past you. its very difficult overcoming this.

why can Moss do this? bc he's so ridiculously fast, he can. and trust me, its very effective. thats why he can get open deep on his man even though the CB knows he's going deep anyway.
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Old 01-20-2009, 05:23 PM    (permalink
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Yea can't give up hope on Sweed, that pass he dropped the other night, was basically the only type of TD passes he caught his entire time at Texas...He is showing some good seperation but your right, it just has to click.


Just remember it's only his 1st year, and Roddy White looked alot like this for a few years...Great sign seeing him drop that pass then coming right back and laying the hit on that defender, love to see that type of stuff.
Yeah I'm not one to give up hope on people when I know they're working hard.


I pay attention to players in everything (ST's, etc). I see Sweed out there blocking and I know he's basically a bridge between Holmes and Ward.

Once he stops thinking himself out of catching the ball he's going to be the best WR of that class. His ability to get deep and open... not to mention his blocking and his attitude (If everyone had a hardworking attitude like him, I don't think there'd ever be a bust).

I know Wex (Beat reporter at SCI) asked him earlier this season:

Wex:"Hey man, how are things going?"
Limas: "Not bad, still picking things up. Always working to learn more. Footballs a lot about intuition and when you know more than someone else, they're always going to be at a huge disadvantage. I try to get every edge I can get".
Wex:" You're not discouraged that your not playing?"
Limas: "You don't know me that well. I don't get discouraged. My opportunity will come, and I'm working as hard as I can. I'm getting stronger, I believe I'm faster and my route running is becoming even more sharp. I believe I can really help this team. I know Play time will help even moreso, but I'm not getting discouraged and regardless or what happens, I won't."

I <3 Sweed.
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Old 01-20-2009, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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*shrug* and that may be. but i think it's just as disingenuous to suggest that kurt warner is only good this year because of boldin/fitz as it is to suggest that culpepper was *only* good because of moss. did he fall apart at some point? sure. but he also pretty clearly demonstrated that he could still produce without moss.

further, culpepper finished the season (again, 2004) roughly the same way he started it. final three games he was 988/8/1. first three? 945/8/1. middle three? 763/6/2.

granted, that's a piss poor statistical method that really doesn't mean much, except to show that over a three game period at three different points in the season, he basically had the same level of production.



fair enough.



i get the idea of faking the corner/safety (although honestly, i don't know why moss would bother, given that he can run past pretty much everyone in the league). but what i recall seeing is a distinct slowdown after the first 5 steps, and then a sudden acceleration when the ball was in the air. they were clearly balls he would've gotten to easily.

had he and cassel had any rhythm/relationship, might that have not been an issue? possibly. but after it happened two or three times, one would've though that moss would've expected that throw from cassel. and, as it went, he DID make a few plays towards the end of the season on the same play. cassel would throw it, i would assume moss was already walking someplace and wouldn't get there, but it would turn out he was actually running and was right under the ball.



fair enough. if it's me picking guys, moss isn't the first guy i take, unless i'm the patriots and i know i have everything else in place. his potential impact doesn't remotely make up for his lack of effort on the field. if i am the patriots (or another equally complete team)? i think you're right about his impact in that case.

that said, it's clear you define best differently, which is fine. i can understand, from your definition, why moss is the #1.

as an aside, and based on that, if you're... let's say the rams. and in fantasy-draft-land you can take any WR in the NFL to add to your team. do you still take moss, knowing that you don't have most of the rest of the offense that he needs to really be successful? or do you look at the oakland situation a little more closely? i'm absolutely not trying to make a point, but am just curious.
Moss is like TO. For him to play up to his potential, you need a good cast to keep him motivated. Teams like the Giants, Pats, Denver, SD etc would be great places for him, and if we're talking about those type of teams ie winning teams, then I'd take Moss and not think twice.

But in an imperfect world, where you have a bad team thats rebuilding, he wouldn't be my first choice unless he impressed me during his visit. To be honest though, if my team had a lot of holes, WR would probably be one of the last things Id invest in because I believe in building a team inside out.

So its kind of a moot point for me personally, because id look to invest my money in other avenues on the team opposed to giving big money to a WR without the pieces around him to begin with.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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top 10 has to include brandon marshall


it would be hard to argue that there is a better player with the ball in his hands
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:15 AM    (permalink
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Santonio Holmes
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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Larry Fitzgerald.
Randy Moss. In the right mindset.
Steve Smith.
Andre Johnson.
Calvin Johnson.

A case can be made for any of these guys. In no particular order.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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Santonio Holmes
Wow, it took five hours. Vegas had the over/under at 25 minutes, which would only be the time it took for the Pittsburgh fan to run to his computer and start searching threads.
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Old 02-02-2009, 01:42 AM    (permalink
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I can't believe we are going to watch Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, and Andre Johnson dominate for another 5-10 years. With Greg Jennings, Roddy White, and Brandon Marshall all around with good QBs as well, the WRs seem to be stacked for the future.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:04 AM    (permalink
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Santonio Holmes
epic fail...
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:20 AM    (permalink
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Wow, it took five hours. Vegas had the over/under at 25 minutes, which would only be the time it took for the Pittsburgh fan to run to his computer and start searching threads.
I wouldn't even go that far.

Holmes had a hell of a post-season. PR TD's, big plays in both the Ravens and Card games.

But I wouldn't say he's one of the best in the league.

He's got a long way to go before that even gets argued.
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Old 02-02-2009, 02:34 AM    (permalink
HellonEarth84
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Wow, it took five hours. Vegas had the over/under at 25 minutes, which would only be the time it took for the Pittsburgh fan to run to his computer and start searching threads.
Actually, look at who bumped this thread. It was "Denver Bronco 56", not me.

But yeah...Holmes is definitely one of the top WRs in the league.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:34 AM    (permalink
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Hines Ward is better then Holmes, but Holmes is more explosive.
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Old 02-02-2009, 07:49 AM    (permalink
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1. Andre Johnson (continues to get it done with Schaub and Rosenfels and David Carr before that, for God's sake)
2. Larry Fitzgerald
3. Steve Smith
4. Anquan Boldin
5. Reggie Wayne

Randy Moss uses his athletic ability better than anyone not named Fitzgerald. I would also like to see Calvin and Roddy White give us more before we discuss them in the top 5. Owens and Harrison are declining. I really like Brandon Marshall, but sometimes it looks like he is going through the motions more than the other guys on my list.

If Dwayne Bowe ever gets a real QB, he could be a star too. He is doing very well considering he isn't even the first option (and is much better than Santonio Holmes). Greg Jennings deserves some props too, as he proved he is good regardless of QB.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Holmes is moving up though, top 10 possibly at some point? Guy has just been incredible the latter part of the season.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:53 AM    (permalink
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Holmes is moving up though, top 10 possibly at some point? Guy has just been incredible the latter part of the season.
IF he can give some consistent production, yes. Until then, he compares to Joey Galloway or Lee Evans at this point.
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Old 02-02-2009, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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Oh I agree, but if he can build on what he did in the playoffs and in the Super Bowl I think an argument can be made.
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Old 02-02-2009, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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1. Andre Johnson
2. Larry FItzgerald
3. Calvin Johnson
4. Terrell Owens
5. Anquan Boldin
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