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Old 01-20-2009, 12:15 AM    (permalink
MarioPalmer
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Default So when is it time to move on?

I was thinking today and I thought about when is the best time for a team to move on from the current QB they have? When is enough a enough?

How many chances do you give a young kid time to improve and develope into the player you want him to be and the guy you thought you were drafting?

When is it time for your franchise to move on from the vet who just isn't playing like a franchise QB and his age and the wear and tear of the league is starting to really take it's toll? Or you know your vet's time is running out and when do you take that chance on a QB high in the draft so that you have that backup plan for the inevitable?

I'm asking this question because I think we are seeing some QB's and some franchises at that crossroad right now, this year, heading into the 2009 NFL Draft and 2009 NFL Season.

Teams I think that have to ask themselves the hard question of what to do with the QB position is much harder than the teams we know that don't have one to begin with. For example, the Lions are QBless and are in desperate need for one and will most likely draft Stafford or Sanchez come April. Same can be said for the Chiefs, Viks and the 49ers, but what about the teams that are one or two years away from being a Detroit or aKansas City?

I'm thinking about the teams like the Rams, Seahawks, Panthers, Jets, Dolphins, Titans and Cardinals. They are at, what I like to call, the "EDGE" of one players career and anothers to begin. But they haven't found that guy to take over yet or at least they aren't completely comfortable with the young kid they have now.

Personally I believe that a team must take a QB when they have a chance, especially when they have a chance to take an elite prospect, regardless of what past their prime vet they have at the helms now.

For example the Rams are in need of a franchise QB who can be the face of the orginization and the player that leads the team for the next decade. They have a shot to grab either Stafford or Sanchez, both of whom I see excelling at the NFL level and making a huge impact once they become acclimated to the NFL game. Yes the Rams have Bulger, but he is 32 years old, he has shown that he IS NOT the once above average QB capable of making franchise QB type plays. Two years now he has actually regressed and has shown his age and his futile arm strength and unathletic ability along with horrid decision making that has lead to dispicable turnovers that can only be blamed on him. Two years is plenty of time for a franchise to take everything into consideration about him as a potential leader of the Rams and make their decision that he is not the best option for the future of their club. Thus using a once in a lifetime chance to grab a top rated QB and be done with it and move on to worry about other things.

Now the Cardinals and Titans have a different scenerio to go through and a much harder one then the Rams and the Seahawks. The Titans and Cards have taken top rated QB prospects and niether have panned out the way they had hoped for. But the hardest thing for them to decide on is that both teams have succeeded in spite of both picks, so what do they do with them? Do the Cards keep Leinert and have him sit the next two years while Warner plays as the starter and finished out his newly signed deal? Does Vince Young have enough passion and confidence to come back after such a horrible public breakdown like he had? And do the Titans and Cards have enough confidence in each quarterback to hand them the reins to two orginizations capable of winning right now? Or, do they look for a QB late in the draft? Maybe picking a QB in the 4th, 5th or 6th round to develope in the back ground. Then when the time comes for the job to be up for grabs the newly drafted QB can then be in competition with the former 1rst rounder for the job, is that best reasoning?

I ask this question, because we all know that the QB position is the hardest to fill in the NFL. We all know that your team only goes as far as the QB who is driving them takes them. We all know that finding a franchise QB is one of the hardest jobs in all of football. And we all know that just because you select one in the 1rst round it doesn't mean that QB is the savior.

To me though, it seems that if you are the Seahawks, Rams, Jets, Buccs or Panthers you have no choice but to select one high if you think that your QB of now isn't the answer. Especially if your present QB doesn't have the ability to be the guy anymore. I think that if you have a shot at a top rated QB and you think that your present QB isn't the answer, you absolutely have to take that shot on the youngster. It's almost a no brainer. Yeah the Rams might get a good OLT in Andre Smith, but is he more important to the franchise than say Mark Sanchez is 3 years from now. Where will Bulger or Hasselback be 3 years from now? If you have Sanchez or Stafford three years from now, I think it would be easier to find yourself a OLT then a top rated QB with elite skills. I find it hard to believe that the Rams, Seahawks, Buccs, Jets, Panthers, and the rest of the franchises with older vets not thinking along the same lines that I am. It only makes sense.

I've always lived by this, "Winning today means nothing if your ****** tommorrow."
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MarioPalmer
Does Vince Young have enough passion and confidence to come back after such a horrible public breakdown like he had?
Vince Young's perceived breakdown was mostly in part by false reports by the media, over-reacting, and assumptions that were reached by the first two's input.

The "Is Vince Young the future?" proposition is ill conceived by the play of Kerry Collins. If Kerry Collins isn't playing behind the best pass-blocking OL in the league, handing it off to one of the most explosive running backs in the league, and having the luxury of having one of the league's best defenses, then this discussion is nonexistent because Collins would have been benched as soon as VY's injury healed. But, fact is that he had all of that, and still had a poor season.

One thinks he was the catalyst for the team because he's the difference between this year's team and last year's, but that is wrong. Collins wasn't the difference between going 10-6 or 13-3. The entire team as a whole was better and deeper than last year's team, and the division was substantially weaker than last year's division.

There's no doubt that Collins had his moments, but it's easy to remember his 4th QTR comeback over the Ravens and easy to forget Titans fans thinking, "Oh, thank God Tyjuan Hagler dropped that easy INT!"

I'm not saying VY is as good of a QB right now as Collins is. But, I know that the Titans have similar success with VY as the QB than with Collins as the QB.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:04 AM    (permalink
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Agreed to a certain extent TitanHope, but there is a large number of Titan fans that believe that Young is finished and there really is no way of him saving his career with the Titans. And I have to believe that the Titans orginization is having the same questions being passed around the front office going into the off-season.

I wasn't saying that Young is all but finished, but the problems are there. Young saying that he felt like quitting after the first season was him saying that, him having a horrible second season was his doing, nobody elses, his aweful first turnovers this year and fans booing him was on him. Not anyone else. His inability to read defenses and throw accurately is his doing and no one elses. Young's refusal to go back into a game because of the rough home crowd was one of the most cowardest acts that I think I have ever heard of. McNabb has been booed from coast to coast by his fans and he keeps his head up and goes out there every Sunday with his head held up high. McNabb has been called everything from an Uncle Tom by his black brethern to a ****** running QB by the hateful racist white bigots and he continues to go out there with every intention of playing to his fullest potential. So to think that this is just some minor inconveniece and that his woes will all be over once the 2009 season begins, you are mistaken.

I don't want to get off topic here. This thread is not in anyway about Young and his career. it's about when is the right time for a franchise to move on. When is the right time for the franchise to look into the future? The Titans have done that, they took the plunge in 2006 and have yet to see the results. So my point is when do they, if at all, make the decision to move on? Do they give Young next year to prove his worth? Or in 2010? If he doesn't by 2010 is it safe to say the Titans are on another QB hunting mission?

I mean look at the 49ers. They are pretty much through with Alex Smith. He is as good as gone and is all bust and nothing else for them. The 2009 NFL season will be Smith's 5th season in the league and as a number overall pick he has shown nothing, I mean absolutely nothing. He has shown less than David Carr and we all know how that turned out. And I'm not saying Young is all alone in that lonely boat, Matt Leinert is in there with him. Although I think he is getting more of a pass because of the play of Kurt Warner. If Warner was as bad as Collins then I'd think the Leinert being a disspointment would be louder and more along the lines of what we are hearing about Vince Young.

How long does a winning orginization give a young QB? I think the Titans and Cards have given their young QB shots and both have failed to make that impact that was expected of them. The Vikings are some what in the same boat as well. Tavaris Jackson has shown almost nothing since being picked in the 2nd round of the 2006 draft. And because the Vikings had some what of a decent season there haven't been loud cries for a new QB, but you can tell that had the Vikes had a solid franchise QB they would have been more of a threat to make a run at the Super Bowl. So is it time for them to move on?

These are questions that must be awefully difficult for GMs and coaches. I don not envy them at all, because I think this is where they really show how much they know and how well they know their players.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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I disagree about Tarvaris Jackson, we all knew he was going to take a while to adjust to the NFL and he has been. But when the vikings benched Gus and put TJ back in he looked like a different man. Even in the playoff lose to the eagles Jackson was not the problem, he could've done more but he didn't bring them down grossman style. So I actually am expecting a significant improvement to his performance next season because I see him building on that late season play.

As for Leinart I've alwyas questioned how much he wanted to be that star with how little fight he's shown with warner there. Maybe when Warner retires and he doesn't have to battle with such an established vet for the spot the light will come on, but I have my doubts.

I think Vince Young will come back and win the starting spot from Collins either in camp or next season. No way the D and running game is that awesome for all of next season so I think even if VY loses the battle in camp if he's showing progress they'll pull the plug on Collins when he starts to cost them and see what they've got in Vince and re-assess from there. Again I'm not too optimistic but I wouldn't be shocked if things started coming together a little with Vince with less pressure due to Collins being the guy going in.

Finally I find the case of Alex Smith to be very upsetting. They really tried to one up the Texans at ruining their QBs. First they fail to give him an even mediocre offensive line, then they play musical chairs with his offensive co-ordinators, all while having very mediocre offensive skill positions talent despite Gore being a beast and a defense that was always just so-so.
Now sometimes a young QB can sometimes overcome changing offensive systems but Alex Smith was a very raw prospect coming from a spread offense, he had a big learning curve and instead of being patient with the kid and taking their time the 9ers rushed him and never let him develop any familiarity with an offense all while trying to catch up on how to QB in the NFL. Now, he's coming off of injury, but I think that's been good for him because it's settled his progression down and he hasn't had to handle the problem of being the face of this franchise and has gotten to just chillax and work on his game. Next season they're going to roll with Shaun Hill who had a great end to the season and Alex Smith will take over as the primary backup, if Hill faulters and Smith is showing progress I could see him getting a shot and coming in as a much better QB than we last saw. Ideally however, Hill does well and Smith can sit the season and then battle for the job next year. I mean it's not like he's that old, he's what 25-26 now? Making him 26-27 as he takes over. There's still hope for him but they've really got to ease off of him and just let him develop for as long as possible.

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Old 01-20-2009, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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Thanks Giantfan, a very good assesment. But I think, just as the Texans did, the 49ers really blew it with Smith. Instead of building around him and making him the focal point of the following drafts and following free agent periods, they went defense instead of giving him a skilled receiver, a skilled interior lineman, and playmakers all around him. Instead of giving Clements a ton of money they could have gone after guys like Jeff Faine, Kevin Mawae, Leonard Davis, Alan Faneca, Derrick Dockery or Eric Steinbach and culd have drafted guys like Santanio Holmes, Nick Mangold, Davin Joseph or DeAngelo Williams or Joseph Addai to pair up with Frank Gore and give the 49ers a two headed monster in the back field. Was Blamer really the right choice in 2008 as well? So you can see that they didn't give him the right tools amd time to succeed, but you can't be impressed with what you have seen and in todays league, regadless of how steep the learni g curve is you have to be the guy going into your 3rd year. All the successful first round QBs have done it. Carson, Eli, Payton, Big Ben, Philip, Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan is on his way, Flacco coming from a Divison 1-AA school, and the list goes on. If he coldn't do it by now I don't think there is much hope for him.

But another point I'm ultra intrigued by is the position that the Rams and the Seahawks are in. Both have declining QB's who are not ever going to be the guy they once were 3 or 4 years ago and both of them are gettting up there in age. Also, both of them are in the top 5 of the draft in April and both have an oppertunity to take a franchise QB. I think we can all agree that the Lions will take Sanchez or Stafford, which ever they feel is their guy. But the Rams and Seahawks have to take which ever one is left into consideration for their pick. To me the Rams need to take one or the other, Stafford or Sanchez. It's a must. They are desperate for a new beginning, and Stafford or Sanchez offers them just that.

Like I said earlier, Bulger is finished. His accuracy, lack of arm strength and decision making has become one of the worst in the league and this year both his bookends played every single game and they played well. The interior of the line was suspect, but the ends were solid and he contuined to make poor throws and he continued to put the Rams' defense into very compromising positions that left them almost no hope. Bulger to me is one of the biggest frauds of the last 3 or 4 years. He was puting up above average numbers because he had outstanding players to work with, once he became a guy tat had to carry a franchise he faultered and being paid like an elite QB means your expected to play like one. As far as I'm concerned the Rams take either Sanchez or Stafford and their time to move on is right now.

Honestly, how many chances does a franchise get to take an elite prospect at the QB position? Could Sanchez or Stafford bust? Sure, but the Rams have to take that chance, because if niether busts and they become everything they are supposed to be, then the gamble was very much worth it. If they take Andre Smith this year and the Seahawks take Crabtree this year, who will be their QB in 2010 or 2011? That question can be answered this April if they take Stafford or Sanchez, and Sanchez and Stafford or more important than either team having Crabtree or Smith. Finding a QB is a whole nother universe thamn trying to find a wide out or a left tackle.

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Old 01-20-2009, 01:59 AM    (permalink
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In today's NFL, contract status is the largest influence to where the line is drawn. Cutting Vince Young would cost the Titans a net cap loss of around $3M this offseason, which isn't very big considering they'll have $30M+ in cap space. The next offseason however, Vince is due a $10M roster bonus, and cutting him would induce a net gain on the cap.

So it's safe to assume if Vince doesn't win the starting job this coming season, or at least improve a lot in camp and practice, then he's probably not going to be on the roster in a year or so. His actions and lack thereof could have already stamped his passport out of Nashville however, so he may not last that long. It's really hard to guage the situation on the outside at the moment.

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Old 01-20-2009, 02:09 AM    (permalink
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As crazy as it sounds, I still think Leinart is going to be a good QB in Arizona. When you have Fitzy, Boldin (well, maybe not in the future..) and an improving OL, what more do you need? Not to mention Breaston and Edge sort of waking up.. he's in such a great position to excel, he just needs to bring it all together.

I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy. I haven't seen much of Leinart so a Cardinals fan would know a lot better than I would.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:09 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarioPalmer
Young saying that he felt like quitting after the first season was him saying that,
He made that comment once, and it was after the 2007 season. In retrospect, Albert Haynesworth also considered retirement early into his career.

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him having a horrible second season was his doing, nobody elses,
That wasn't my point, and I didn't even say anything to contradict this notion.

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his aweful first turnovers this year and fans booing him was on him. Not anyone else.
He played one game this season, and it was against a healthy Jacksonville DEF who VY has always struggled against. This has no bearing on a full 16-game season. The booing was justified.

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His inability to read defenses and throw accurately is his doing and no one elses.
Wrong. He can read defenses and throw accurately. Vince had a better completion percentage and higher Y/A in 2007 than Collins had in 2008. The INT's were mostly due to him trying to put the horrific offense on his back and making a play. With Chris Johnson in the backfield, he wouldn't have to feel like he needed to be the one to make a play. People unjustly knocked him for not being a "game-manager." You can be a manager when you're handing the ball off to Adrian Peterson or MoJo Drew/Fred Taylor - not LenDale White. You have have fatass in the backfield and mediocre WR's and TE's, the pressure is on you to make the play.

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Young's refusal to go back into a game because of the rough home crowd was one of the most cowardest acts that I think I have ever heard of. McNabb has been booed from coast to coast by his fans and he keeps his head up and goes out there every Sunday with his head held up high. McNabb has been called everything from an Uncle Tom by his black brethern to a ****** running QB by the hateful racist white bigots and he continues to go out there with every intention of playing to his fullest potential.
Wrong. Young never refused to go back into the game. He refused to go out onto the field during a TV timeout. They sent the offense back onto the field during the timeout, and Vince wanted to stay on the sidelines until the TV timeout was over. He was struggling, and wanted to get his bearings straight. It's not as if the offense huddled up with the playclock counting down, and every looks around and are like, "OMGee, where's Vince?" This was falsely reported by the media, and now VY is unjustly labeled a coward.

Also, don't compare Titans nor any other teams fans to Philly fans. I see this done time and time again, and it's stupid. McNabb was booed at friggin draft day. Getting booed in Philly is customary, so Eagles players don't take it personally. It's not the same. Not even close.

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So to think that this is just some minor inconveniece and that his woes will all be over once the 2009 season begins, you are mistaken.
Judging by your accusations, you're in no position to call my stance mistaken. If VY develops, then great. If not, great. Fact of the matter is that the Titans' success is not dependent on the success of the QB as it was in 2007. The Titans will not be drafting a QB in 2009, late-round or not, as they'll have Vince Young and either Kerry Collims or Chris Simms on the roster (they only carry 2 QB's entering regular seasons). They've said that Vince Young is the franchise's future at QB. I think that answers your question about the Titans QB situation. As for others around the league, I'm in no position to comment.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:31 AM    (permalink
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Thanks Giantfan, a very good assesment. But I think, just as the Texans did, the 49ers really blew it with Smith. Instead of building around him and making him the focal point of the following drafts and following free agent periods, they went defense instead of giving him a skilled receiver, a skilled interior lineman, and playmakers all around him. Instead of giving Clements a ton of money they could have gone after guys like Jeff Faine, Kevin Mawae, Leonard Davis, Alan Faneca, Derrick Dockery or Eric Steinbach and culd have drafted guys like Santanio Holmes, Nick Mangold, Davin Joseph or DeAngelo Williams or Joseph Addai to pair up with Frank Gore and give the 49ers a two headed monster in the back field. Was Blamer really the right choice in 2008 as well? So you can see that they didn't give him the right tools amd time to succeed, but you can't be impressed with what you have seen and in todays league, regadless of how steep the learni g curve is you have to be the guy going into your 3rd year. All the successful first round QBs have done it. Carson, Eli, Payton, Big Ben, Philip, Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan is on his way, Flacco coming from a Divison 1-AA school, and the list goes on. If he coldn't do it by now I don't think there is much hope for him.

But another point I'm ultra intrigued by is the position that the Rams and the Seahawks are in. Both have declining QB's who are not ever going to be the guy they once were 3 or 4 years ago and both of them are gettting up there in age. Also, both of them are in the top 5 of the draft in April and both have an oppertunity to take a franchise QB. I think we can all agree that the Lions will take Sanchez or Stafford, which ever they feel is their guy. But the Rams and Seahawks have to take which ever one is left into consideration for their pick. To me the Rams need to take one or the other, Stafford or Sanchez. It's a must. They are desperate for a new beginning, and Stafford or Sanchez offers them just that.

Like I said earlier, Bulger is finished. His accuracy, lack of arm strength and decision making has become one of the worst in the league and this year both his bookends played every single game and they played well. The interior of the line was suspect, but the ends were solid and he contuined to make poor throws and he continued to put the Rams' defense into very compromising positions that left them almost no hope. Bulger to me is one of the biggest frauds of the last 3 or 4 years. He was puting up above average numbers because he had outstanding players to work with, once he became a guy tat had to carry a franchise he faultered and being paid like an elite QB means your expected to play like one. As far as I'm concerned the Rams take either Sanchez or Stafford and their time to move on is right now.

Honestly, how many chances does a franchise get to take an elite prospect at the QB position? Could Sanchez or Stafford bust? Sure, but the Rams have to take that chance, because if niether busts and they become everything they are supposed to be, then the gamble was very much worth it. If they take Andre Smith this year and the Seahawks take Crabtree this year, who will be their QB in 2010 or 2011? That question can be answered this April if they take Stafford or Sanchez, and Sanchez and Stafford or more important than either team having Crabtree or Smith. Finding a QB is a whole nother universe thamn trying to find a wide out or a left tackle.
I'd argue there biggest mistake hasn't been trying to build a defense, it's been playing him while he's unprepared and that has pushed back his development so while under standard development you'd like to see him establish himself as the man but the problem is he was always a project and a project you damage requires even more. My guess is that Shaun Hill buys them that time, it doesn't really hurt them to have Smith stay as the backup while they work on developing him behind Hill, and if Hill's doing his job they can take their time. I think it's a likely senario because as far as I know they stand nothing to gain from cutting him and having a backup QB and guy with his tools is very good even SHaun hill takes over as the guy.

Now I think Matt Hasselback will be back and will still be an effective QB as long as that team reloads on their offensive weapons. Giving him a guy like Crabtree to add to healthy receiving corps would make him look a lot better. I also think they need to add a rookie runner since I still remember Julius Jones' days in dallas when he didn't break a single tackle his entire time there. So I think in round one they need to add a weapon, in round two if there's a guy they really like they should grab him but I don't think they need to hurry about it yet. They have other needs and need to re-load that team with talent before preparing for the post hasselback era.

Now Bulger's really starting to look done but I don't think they need to panic yet. The team simply isn't good enough and I think teams need to build up their squads before bringing a young "franchise" QB into the fold. Bulger can't be realied upon but if Spags can give that D a boost and andre smith makes the oline a strength that team will be much more competitive and then once you've started to figure out who your core is and how they're going to carry you into the future you add a franchise QB, not like the Rams are close to competing. Bulger will be mediocre but the young talent your starting to accumilate will be better adjusted and be more ready to win so that when you do bring that young QB in he's in a positive environment which helps him develop into who they want him to be.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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TitanHope I think your name says it all, you seem to be in the minority here and are still holding out that Vince Young will be the guy that won the National Championship back in 2006. Since you won't listen to me, or probably anyone for that matter. I'll give you a colomn by a pretty reputable writer.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/8550254?MSNHPHMA

I think that this article best potrays Vince Young and his problems and it's a very interesting read to say the least. It seems even in the face of failure and the inability to become the guy everyone expected of him, Young still has those small group of loyal supporters that feel that he is still VY or Superman or whatever other nicknames that were giving to him. Let's face it, Young was ill perpared for the NFL, from his poor mechanics, terrible accuracy and pathetic reads and decisions to his bad wonderlic (whether it was 6 or 16 it's still horrid), to his poor off the field decisions, to him thinking that he can just come to the NFL and adlib himself into the Hall.

You can blame the offense and any other woes on the team if you like, but he is your problem. Collins goes 10-0 with a team that nobody, including Fisher thought was possible with Young. If he did, he would have brought him back once the injury was healed. If he is better, then he is better, but you can still drink the Kool-Aid which you so obviously and vigorously have and keep hoping and praying that VY shows up again, but he's had his shot and by year 3 he has been a no show. In my book thats B-U-S-T territory, especially considering that a QB that played on a much worse college team and who plays on a much worse NFL team who was drafted in the exact same draft is doing so much better and is now considered a top 5 NFL QB. Cutler has done everything right and has shown the progression needed at this level to warrant his draft selection. Young on the other hand hasn't and has become quite possibly the biggest bust ranking right up there with Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith and Jeff George.

Also, don't blame the media, it's callous and shallow to blame the media every time your guy is an idiot. It wasn't the media that called the police to find VY, it wasn't the media who said "everyone needs to leave my son alone and just show him love and support", it wasn't the media that wouldn't go back into a game after being booed, it wasn't the media who scored a 6 or 16 on the wonderlic, it wasn't the media who decided to go back to school in the off-season when his team needed him more, it wasn't the media who had scared friends calling up Fisher, it wasn't the media who throw mre INTs than TDs in 2007, it wasn't the media who made horrid reads and incrediably poor decisions, it wasn't the media who hired a family friend and a local attorney to be his agent and not a professional, it wasn't the media said "I thought about retiring after my rookie year cause I didn't want to deal with the pressure." It was Vince Young, nobody is making this up and nobody is out to get him. Remember all the love and admiration he received? Cause I do, as a matter of fact VY was the Golden Boy who ould do no wrong. You want to know what real pressure and hatred is, go back and Google all the hatred about Mario Williams, then you'll see what unfair treatment is. Young got off easy and the only reason people aren't killing him, is because they are afraid he might kill himself.

I didn't want to make this about him but since you feel you need to defend him and give the same lame excuses of "it wasn't me" then I thik you are mistaken and seem to be one of the Austin faithful that are blinded by a guy who was a great college player yet a horrible professional player.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:16 AM    (permalink
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My best friend who plays with Gary Allen, living in Nashville, is friends with one of the OL of the Titans.
He's also friends with Jay Cutler, from Vanderbilt.

Anyway, from this Titans OL, since Vince was a rookie, he has told my buddy that Vince has no clue on how to run an offense, and that included his rookie year in which he helped them rally to win a lot of games. In public, the team will say one thing. But in private, they'll tell the truth. That's all I'm saying about that. The team definitely does not have faith in Young. They should have clearly taken Cutler or even Leinart.

And this friend of mine is a die-hard (one of the few) Vikings fans. Anyway, he is 100% totally done with Tarvarris Jackson. Another friend of ourse thinks T-Jack is worth waiting for. It's a tough call. Some QB's take longer than others. Some get it right away. Some then regress. See Rick Mirer and Tim Couch.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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Leinart has only started 1 full season worth of games. Almost all 1st rounders get more than 3x that many starts before declaring him a bust. He hasn't played enough to be written off yet.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:01 PM    (permalink
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It's time to move on when your team goes 13-3 and loses in OT in the NFC Championship game to the eventual Superbowl champions.

It's time to move on when your QB is a lock as a 1st ballot Hall of Famer

And it's time to move on when you have an unproven backup QB who has been on the bench for 3-some seasons.

Wait a second.... =|

jk
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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For Washington...it is time to move on. Trade Campbell now while you can still get value for him before his contract is up. He may be decent in the NFL but it won't be in Washington in the WCO.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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I understand some of the displeasure with some players like Campbell or say a guy like Russell, but I don't see them dissapointing in the same respect as a Joey Harrington, Vince Young, David Carr, Tim Couch etc. And from all sides it seems like th Skins are sticking with Campbell as their guy. Will he be the franchise QB they envisioned when they took him the 1rst in 2005? I don't know, maybe, but he most likely won't. I do see him though becoming a Jake Delhomme or a Jeff Garcia or a Mark Brunell type QB. A guy very much capable of managing a game and making the plays that have to be made. Will he ever take over a game and just be aweinspiring? Probably not, but how many QBs can really do that?

I don't think it's the right time for the Skins to move on, at least not yet. Brennen seems along ways off to be a guy that can come in and play against this kind of competition, but I've only watched from afar and not close up. So maybe my view is skewed a little, but I don't think that just completely dumping Campbell for a 4th or even a 3rd is really worth it.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about the Jets QB situation, minus Favre. Clemens obviously hasn't showed much. Ratliff was the training camp/pre-season hero, but he's still raw and untested. Eric Ainge is a project and will be a 3rd stringer or not on the team at all (unless he's quietly improving).
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whistler6 View Post
It's time to move on when your team goes 13-3 and loses in OT in the NFC Championship game to the eventual Superbowl champions.

It's time to move on when your QB is a lock as a 1st ballot Hall of Famer

And it's time to move on when you have an unproven backup QB who has been on the bench for 3-some seasons.

Wait a second.... =|

jk
Whistler, I would assume your talking about Favre, and with his performance late into the season with the Jets it has looked like the Pack did the right thing. Rogers was very good this year, especially for it being his first year as the man. I look to Rogers being a top 10 QB going into the 2009 NFL Season and in the case of the Packers versus Favre they did it too late. Not saying that the 2007 Packer season wasn't a wonderful run, but I think that keeping Rogers on the bench for a full 3 seasons was a little too much and it might have even stunted his growth a little. Not saying that he should have started the year he was drafted and even the second year, but by the 3rd year he should have been the man so that going into his 3 full season as the starter he would be entering his prime for a QB which they all should be at by the time they are a 3 year starter.

I think the Packers case was one of the picture perfect cases for what I am trying to discuss. An older, declinign QB playing a little past his prime and a franchise not knowing exactly how to handle it. They did the right thing in the long run, but they could have certainly pulled the plug earlier and persoanlly I think they'd be better off today for it.
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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hopefully the Jets look at waht the Packers did and do the same. but i doubt it. Woody Johnson <3s Favre
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Old 01-20-2009, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about the Jets QB situation, minus Favre. Clemens obviously hasn't showed much. Ratliff was the training camp/pre-season hero, but he's still raw and untested. Eric Ainge is a project and will be a 3rd stringer or not on the team at all (unless he's quietly improving).
Definitly one of the reason why I mentioned them. I think they should have drafted Chad Henne in the late 1rst in the 2008 Draft. I think he would have done wonders sitting behind Favre for a year and then become the starter in 2009. But no it seems like you guys have to go back to the drawing board and draft a QB in the late first or in the second, and really how much hope can you really have for that QB to make a legit impact right away. Because this team is ready to compete right away. I think that the best option for the Jets is to go after a Matt Cassell or a Rex Grossman for a year and then in the 2009 Draft pick a young QB like a Josh Freeman or Nate Davis. Then you basically can chalk up the 2009 season as a wash, but really, is there any optimism for a team heading into the 2009 season without a starting QB?
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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First they fail to give him an even mediocre offensive line
The Niners took Alex because, as the rule goes, "you dont pass on a franchise QB". However, that was a mistake because it's worthless to take a QB when there is so little talent around him that over half the starters on both sides of the ball wouldnt be more than back-ups else where. The reason there was so little talent is that the team was trying to get out of cap hell which they got into during the Mariucci era.

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then they play musical chairs with his offensive co-ordinators, all while having very mediocre offensive skill positions talent despite Gore being a beast and a defense that was always just so-so.
I don't think you can fault the organization for coordinators leaving to be coaches. First they had Mike McCarthy who, after one year as OC (they thought he was going to be around for much longer) he goes and gets the job as HC of the Packers. They then brought in Norv Turner to be the OC and he did a fantastic job with the team. The problem was he left to coach San Diego after one year, too. The replacement for OC was one of his assistants, Jim Hostler. Jim Hostler was awful. They brought in Ted Tollner to help but it just made matters worse. Finally, they went and got Martz but once Mike "I am an awful coach" Nolan was fired. Martz was out too because he wasnt running the type of offense that Singletary is looking for.

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Alex Smith was a very raw prospect coming from a spread offense, he had a big learning curve and instead of being patient with the kid and taking their time the 9ers rushed him and never let him develop any familiarity with an offense all while trying to catch up on how to QB in the NFL.
They traded Rattay mid-season for a 6th round pick in the '06 draft (ended up taking Marcus Hudson, who is still on the team). That's why he was playing. Rattay was awful and they wanted to get what they could for him and I dont blame them. Sure, it would have been best to let Alex sit and learn but the team was riddled with injuries and Rattay couldn't win a game if his life depended on it.

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Ideally however, Hill does well and Smith can sit the season and then battle for the job next year. I mean it's not like he's that old, he's what 25-26 now? Making him 26-27 as he takes over. There's still hope for him but they've really got to ease off of him and just let him develop for as long as possible.
Alex will be 25 in May. He's still one of the youngest QBs in the league and has 4 years of experience in the NFL. Hill is not to be doubted, though. The guy is a gamer. He may not have all the talent or hype but he just goes out and plays great every game. Alex is only coming back if he restructures his contract and it's in his best interest to because this is the only team where he will actually get a chance to be the starter, any where else and he's a project or a career back up. He has said he wants to come back because he is from California and I think he really wants to prove people wrong and win the starting job in San Francisco.

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I'm curious to hear what you guys have to say about the Jets QB situation, minus Favre. Clemens obviously hasn't showed much. Ratliff was the training camp/pre-season hero, but he's still raw and untested. Eric Ainge is a project and will be a 3rd stringer or not on the team at all (unless he's quietly improving).
I am pulling for Ratliff. I liked the guy when he was coming out of Utah and I wish him the best.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:25 PM    (permalink
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Vince Young's perceived breakdown was mostly in part by false reports by the media, over-reacting, and assumptions that were reached by the first two's input.

The "Is Vince Young the future?" proposition is ill conceived by the play of Kerry Collins. If Kerry Collins isn't playing behind the best pass-blocking OL in the league, handing it off to one of the most explosive running backs in the league, and having the luxury of having one of the league's best defenses, then this discussion is nonexistent because Collins would have been benched as soon as VY's injury healed. But, fact is that he had all of that, and still had a poor season.

One thinks he was the catalyst for the team because he's the difference between this year's team and last year's, but that is wrong. Collins wasn't the difference between going 10-6 or 13-3. The entire team as a whole was better and deeper than last year's team, and the division was substantially weaker than last year's division.

There's no doubt that Collins had his moments, but it's easy to remember his 4th QTR comeback over the Ravens and easy to forget Titans fans thinking, "Oh, thank God Tyjuan Hagler dropped that easy INT!"

I'm not saying VY is as good of a QB right now as Collins is. But, I know that the Titans have similar success with VY as the QB than with Collins as the QB.
It's a bit strange, me being more of an outsider, but I would definitely disagree. Collins may not be a great quarterback, but imo the Titans are so much better with him starting. I only wish as a Colts fan that Young was back as the starter, they certainly wouldn't have won the division if Young started all season. Young absolutely cannot make some of the throws that Collins can make, at least some of the throws I saw Collins make this year that won them tough games. Even when Collins struggles, it's not that him being mentally rattled has anything to do with it.
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Old 01-20-2009, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Whistler, I would assume your talking about Favre, and with his performance late into the season with the Jets it has looked like the Pack did the right thing. Rogers was very good this year, especially for it being his first year as the man. I look to Rogers being a top 10 QB going into the 2009 NFL Season and in the case of the Packers versus Favre they did it too late. Not saying that the 2007 Packer season wasn't a wonderful run, but I think that keeping Rogers on the bench for a full 3 seasons was a little too much and it might have even stunted his growth a little. Not saying that he should have started the year he was drafted and even the second year, but by the 3rd year he should have been the man so that going into his 3 full season as the starter he would be entering his prime for a QB which they all should be at by the time they are a 3 year starter.

I think the Packers case was one of the picture perfect cases for what I am trying to discuss. An older, declinign QB playing a little past his prime and a franchise not knowing exactly how to handle it. They did the right thing in the long run, but they could have certainly pulled the plug earlier and persoanlly I think they'd be better off today for it.

Yessir.. I completely agree. I wasn't trying to say the Packers and TT screwed up, I was just joking around. Moving on to Aaron Rodgers and putting their foot down regarding the retirement situation were both needed.

Rodgers showed his potential this season and will only get better as the players around him improve as well.

It was an ugly situation and an ugly end, but for a no win situation..They did the right thing. IMO*
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Old 01-20-2009, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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He made that comment once, and it was after the 2007 season. In retrospect, Albert Haynesworth also considered retirement early into his career.
As did Steve McNair during the 99 season, in oddly similar circumstances. McNair got hurt, was booed off whilst his backup Chandler was cheered onto the field, and told Fisher he wanted to leave QB'ing in the NFL behind him. Fisher urged McNair to at least wait until he got healthy again and give it one more shot, he did, and he lead the Titans to the Superbowl.

I'd love to dig up the article quoting Fisher on this, but I wouldn't have a chance finding it now.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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It's a bit strange, me being more of an outsider, but I would definitely disagree. Collins may not be a great quarterback, but imo the Titans are so much better with him starting. I only wish as a Colts fan that Young was back as the starter, they certainly wouldn't have won the division if Young started all season. Young absolutely cannot make some of the throws that Collins can make, at least some of the throws I saw Collins make this year that won them tough games. Even when Collins struggles, it's not that him being mentally rattled has anything to do with it.
My biggest disappointment this season was not being able to see Vince Young played with Chris Johnson in the backfield. I've seen almost every game Vince has played on the professional level. And I can tell you this much man: nearly every opinion I've heard from people on VY's passing ability, accuracy, etc. is skewed.

Against the Colts last year, Vince had a QB rating of 97.5 and 103.0. I know it's the territory of being a high pick at QB, especially a dual-threat QB, but it's odd how Vince can have a QB rating of 90 or higher in 1/3 of his games in 2007, yet he's a bust and can't hit the broad side of a barn with his passes.

The Titans won just as many games in 2007 because of Vince as they did with Collins in 2008, but he will never get the credit Collins receives. You can ask Titans fans about the reasons they won games this season. Unanimously, they'll say Chris Johnson was the difference between this team winning the division.

I give kudos to Kerry Collins. This was the first season the Titans could win with a game-manager at QB, and Collins stepped up and did that when Vince went down. But, he still turned the ball over and completed a low percentage of his passes. He may have stepped it up big time on two or three games, but so did Vince in '07.

Right now, the only thing Collins provides that Young doesn't is that Collins doesn't try to force the ball to make a play. Vince did that a lot, and it nearly cost us games. But by doing so, it inflated his INT's which made it appear that he has horrible accurace. That wasn't the case, and he improved greatly from his rookie to sophomore season in completion percentage and Y/A. So it may sound like excuses to some people when a Titans fan is saying these things, but logically, I have to assume that the mentality and decision making process of a QB is different when they're handing off to LenDale White who is lucky to get 5 yards on the carry compared to when they're handing it off to Chris Johnson who has the ability to score at any time.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:41 PM    (permalink
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I'd say it's time to think about moving on when your mid-30s QB throws 5 picks in a playoff game.
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