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Old 01-20-2009, 09:07 PM    (permalink
OzTitan
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Biggest differences between 07 and 08 for the Titans was Chris Johnson at RB, Dinger at OC, and DL depth providing less of a drop off when Haynesworth inevitably goes down for a few games.

I can't rate Collins in at QB over Young a bigger impact than those three factors, not when Collins' only real achievement was not throwing many INTs. Which is great, but there were bigger things at play for the Titans than QB.

I want to see Vince succeed mostly because I want to see an offense with a good VY, Chris Johnson and maybe Percy Harvin/Maclin/DHB etc at WR.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
The Titans won just as many games in 2007 because of Vince as they did with Collins in 2008, but he will never get the credit Collins receives. You can ask Titans fans about the reasons they won games this season. Unanimously, they'll say Chris Johnson was the difference between this team winning the division.
I don't want to discredit Chris Johnson, believe me. Especially I was really big on him as a prospect, he was my #4 back in the class ahead of Forte, Slaton, and Felix Jones, and was sad (in a good way) that the Titans finally got it right at RB after two busts.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't exactly call Chris Henry a bust, Geo. I still have high hopes for him. If all goes well, he'll be the All-Pro gunner that we all know he can be! :D

Plus, don't forget his epic KR skillz!
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:47 AM    (permalink
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I'd say it's time to think about moving on when your mid-30s QB throws 5 picks in a playoff game.
Without a doubt the Panthers need to move on. The Jake Delhomme story was a good ride, but that ride has been ended and the Panthers are in desperate need of a quality young QB capable of taking over games and competing at a high level regardless of the situation. Delhomme was the reason why the Panthers were beat, no one elses fault.

But because they traded away their 1rst round pick and win so many games, their best bet is to go after Josh Freeman, Nate Davis and Rett Bomar. I don'
t see any of them making an imediate impact, but at least its a step in the right direction. Steve Smith is still in his prime while Williams and Stewart are the leagues best rushing duo, so a young QB does have the weapons to work with and a solid offensive line to protect him. It'll be interesting to see what the Panthers do come April and the 2009 Draft.

As for Young, again I wished this hadn't been a Young debate but it has, so whatever. Young will never be the all mighty VY that is this revolutionary QB that is going to put the fear of God into opposing defenses, he will never be the guy every one hyoed him up to be. All I have to say is this, and I think it says it all. Teams dared Vince Young to throw, they actually wanted him to throw, they begged him to throw, they did everything in their power to force him to throw and with 8 men in the box he still couldn't beat any team in the league with his arm on a consistent basis. Sure he might have his share of quality starts but nothing that makes you stand up and say "wow, he is going to be great". And if you can't say that, and you can't rely on him week to week throwing the ball, not running, then your QB that you drafted in the top 3 in a bust.

Sorry, but case closed, the argument is pretty much mute, because he has failed thus far. His Pro Bowl appearence was as an alternate and he was the only QB left after sorting through the hurt QBs and the bad ones that were left that year, as for the rookie of the year votes, that is a popularity contest at its finiest, so that means squadouche.

The game that really stands out isn't his horridness of the opener this year, but the game agianst the Saints last year in 2007. That game was horrific and you could see the pure lack of throwing fundementals and bad decision making. He was just disasterous in that game and that team, the Saints, didn't have the playmakers on defense to scare anyone, and he didn't run, and he couldn't throw, he was utterly useless in that game and it showed his ineffectiveness.

I'm sorry I'm bagging on your guy so hard, but the amount of hype and love he got before and after his rookei season was unwarrented and it was a huge jump to a conclusion. People had already anoited him to the Hall of Fame and he could do no wrong, while guys like Eli Manning were getting destroyed, Rivers being blamed for the Brees events, Grossman getting killed for basically doing the same amount of nothing that Young did but got hit so hard even after taking his team to the Super Bowl. David Carr and Alex Smith have literally been humilated in the media, with Carrs glove episode and Smith being a baby about his shoulder.

It was due time that Young, who has been completely ineffective thus far in his career, to get some of the grief that other top QB busts have gotten. So I feel absolutely no sympathy for him, as a person maybe, but as a millioniare, first round QB, absolutely not. And as far as I'm concerned he is done and might as well take up his sugestion of retiring and just let the Titans move on.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:06 AM    (permalink
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Panthers need to start Matt Moore. The guy is going to be better than people expect.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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The game that really stands out isn't his horridness of the opener this year, but the game agianst the Saints last year in 2007. That game was horrific and you could see the pure lack of throwing fundementals and bad decision making. He was just disasterous in that game and that team, the Saints, didn't have the playmakers on defense to scare anyone, and he didn't run, and he couldn't throw, he was utterly useless in that game and it showed his ineffectiveness.
Erm, the Saints game he had a 97 rating, 2 TD's and threw at 63% with a 7.5YPA. He had a pick but Troupe ran the wrong route on that and got benched in the process.

So I'm guessing you're confusing the Saints game for another, as he was definitely effective in that game. God knows you have plenty of others to choose from in 07 that he was ineffective in, but the Saints game wasn't one of them. The thing you'll notice about Vince is he has had quite a few well rated games, and a quite a few very poorly rated games. He didn't often put up an average, 75-85 rating game. It's not like he hasn't shown some real ability as a QB in there, because he has and on a consistent enough basis to at least conclude they weren't total flukes - it's just the games where he was off were terrible. But consistency is a common issue for young QB's, and it's not always something they develop in a linear or predictable fashion. Drew Brees' 3rd season was shocking and now he's the 2nd all time passing yards leader for a season.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:02 AM    (permalink
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desperate need of a quality young QB capable of taking over games and competing at a high level regardless of the situation. Delhomme was the reason why the Panthers were beat, no one elses fault.

But because they traded away their 1rst round pick and win so many games, their best bet is to go after Josh Freeman, Nate Davis and Rett Bomar.

It'll be interesting to see what the Panthers do come April and the 2009 Draft.
I truncated a lot to save space.

I tend to agree, that the Panthers need some kind of plan for the future. Delhomme is 34 years old and is coming off his worst season statistically as a starting quarterback and while he was efficient for much of the season, I found myself holding my breath when he dropped back to pass.

If it were up to me I'd love to see us make a splash with a first round pick and build a guy up to be the franchise for the next five or six years.

However, I don't think we'll see the Panthers draft a QB for a while. Number one is that John Fox doesn't believe in drafting a QB, for some reason he just doesn't. Secondly, until recently with the hiring of Scherer (sp?) after his release from the browns the Panthers didn't really have anyone capable of developing a quarterback.

Now with Scherer on the team I can see that changing, but I doubt it'll be this year.

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Panthers need to start Matt Moore. The guy is going to be better than people expect.
I agree, from what I saw in his few regular season starts the guy can command a huddle and has a decent arm. He takes a few risks, but I can live with a risk and turnover every now and then rather than sack after sack after sack due to indecision. He's pretty decently mobile as far as pocket passers go. I think he's the team's future and I think we might see more of him in preseason this year.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:29 AM    (permalink
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I don't want to discredit Chris Johnson, believe me. Especially I was really big on him as a prospect, he was my #4 back in the class ahead of Forte, Slaton, and Felix Jones, and was sad (in a good way) that the Titans finally got it right at RB after two busts.
I'm usually dead on with you when it comes to NFL prospects and opinions but I have to slightly disagree with you.

I like Chris Johnson's talent but thought he'd only be serviceable with a complimentary back. Luckily for him he ended up in a situation where he was just that in TN.

My top backs last year where McFadden, Jones, Slaton, and Johnson. And while Johnson was still my 4th, I had Johnson as my 5th.
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Old 01-21-2009, 04:34 AM    (permalink
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Panthers need to start Matt Moore. The guy is going to be better than people expect.
To save space, I didn't quote everybody agreed with.

Yes, the Jake Delhomme experiment was great but it has run it's course. Sure, as a Saints fan he should have been the likely choice to take over for Aaron Brooks but our idiotic front office choice another course of action which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. But that's neither here not there.

I really liked what I saw out of Matt Moore when the starred in limited action. if he gets a good amount of snaps in practice and in pre-season I see no reason why he would be worse than Delhomme. On the other hand, a project QB could definitely be the answer and I feel you guys could get some seemingly good value if you trade Ken Lucas and have Richard Marshall take over his starting spot opposite Gamble.

Rhett Bomar is the guy I would draft if I were the Panthers, if I couldn't land a QB in FA worth a damn. He should be there in the 3rd round for you guys to grab and I don't see how that would put you all out of any shape draft wise.

Needless to say, I see the Saints in the least likeliest position to compete in the NFC South for a while to come. The Panthers and Falcons are in a much better situation than us with the Bucs competing with us for the crap title of the division, however, i trust the hire of Raheem Morris a lot more than the retaining of Sean Payton.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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i know you know that pointing to rating as if it demonstrates anything about accuracy or ability is silly. david carr had a great rating for a few games in his last year in houston, however when one watched the tape, it was quite clearly a result of numerous checkdowns and low yardage throws; things that don't win ball games.
It's not the be-all, end-all by any means. But it's worthy of being stated. I didn't mean to say he's a great passer because he had a 100-QB rating in a few games last season.

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oh stop it. does "vince just wins" sound familiar? it was sort of a refrain from here to espn to just about everything i read online about the guy while he was on the titans. you can feel free to accuse some of the naysayers with having a selective memory, but let's not pretend this is anything else.
Yup, that and the, "He just wills his team to victory," thing got old after his rookie season. Vince wasn't the reason the Titans won. They won in spite of the offense many times. But I blame that on the entire offense, aside from the OL, than solely on Vince.

You know just as well as anyone how one should take anything ESPN says or runs with a grain of salt, njx9. Selective memory or not, I just don't get it. Gives me the same, "Are you serious?" reaction as when I see a poster go, "So-and-so player on my team is one of the best in the league! He's playing on a Pro Bowl level!" and then later say, "C'mon, the Pro Bowl is a joke. It's just a popularity contest."

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to be fair, so did his 51.5% completion percentage his rookie year. did he get better? yeah, all the way to 62.% the next year. are people going to forget the 51.5% when one of the big questions (legitimate or not) was whether or not he could throw accurately, especially with one of the worst throwing motions i've ever seen?
It was his rookie year! The team was winless when he first started (winless under Collins, in fact)! He's throwing to Drew Bennett and Bobby Wade! The game-plan the entire second half of the season was, "I dunno man, just pull something out of your ass." It's unfair to punish him for his poor completion percentage his rookie year when he was under those circumstances.

His throwing motion isn't good, but his footwork is what the problem is. Whenever he passes, it's like he doesn't follow through with his hips and step forward. That's my biggest concern in that aspect. When he doesn't have the proper footwork, his passes don't have the zip and accuracy that other NFL QB's have. Mike Heimerdinger said that was the one thing he was gonna change about Vince's passing when he came in, and that he would leave the throwing motion along. Is it really one of the worst throwing motions you've ever seen?

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Originally Posted by TitanHope
That wasn't the case, and he improved greatly from his rookie to sophomore season in completion percentage and Y/A. So it may sound like excuses to some people when a Titans fan is saying these things, but logically, I have to assume that the mentality and decision making process of a QB is different when they're handing off to LenDale White who is lucky to get 5 yards on the carry compared to when they're handing it off to Chris Johnson who has the ability to score at any time.
you made two points here that i don't disagree with singularly, but that don't make any sense as a comparison. vince young improving from year one to year two doesn't have anything to do with handing off to white or johnson, as he didn't have the option of handing off to johnson his second season. or maybe i just missed a paragraph break in there that would've made it make more sense.
I bolded the phrase that should have gone at the end of the prior paragraph instead of the beginning of the new one. Yeah, I dunno what I was doin there...cocaine is a helluva drug.

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in either case, don't think i'm suggesting vince young is a bust or anything approaching. but it's inaccurate, to say the least, to suggest that some of the questions asked about him right now are baseless.
I agree whole-heartedly. Where there's smoke, there's fire. And I'm not meaning to say everything that all of the accusations and criticisms he receives are baseless.

But if you give ammunition to a group of people who have a bias against something, and they'll use it - whether it's the truth or not. Most of the anti-Vince Young people out there dislike him because of spite. As you said earlier about the, "Vince just winz!" phrase that was used so much, people got tired of hearing him be over-rated and didn't wanna hear about him anymore. Then you have people like MarioPalmer whose team took Mario Williams instead of either Bush/Young, and were unrightfully criticized for doing. This especially heated up during the end of Vince's rookie season and when he won ROTY. Now that Mario Williams has evolved into one of the best defensive ends in the NFL (or if you ask MarioPalmer, the rightful winner of '08 DPOY) and Vince Young has fallen from grace, MarioPalmer takes enjoyment in being able to revel in those facts by being able to make up for his player getting negative attention while Vince got positive, or just not getting the attention that Vince got. Broncos fans had the same attitude with Jay Cutler and Vince. Both groups have the right to it, and there's nothing I can do to contradict their logical arguments - Jay Cutler and Mario Williams are better players than Vince Young. But the bias is there regardless of there being a direct comparison or not.

The quesstions about Vince aren't baseless. But when a Houston Texans fan is pointing out all of his flaws and callin' him a bust, and he then follows it up with, "Remember all the love and admiration he received? Cause I do, as a matter of fact VY was the Golden Boy who ould do no wrong. You want to know what real pressure and hatred is, go back and Google all the hatred about Mario Williams, then you'll see what unfair treatment is. Young got off easy and the only reason people aren't killing him, is because they are afraid he might kill himself," and calling Jason ******* Whitlock "very reputable," I gotsta go into "Are you serious?" mode.
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Old 01-21-2009, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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To save space, I didn't quote everybody agreed with.

Yes, the Jake Delhomme experiment was great but it has run it's course. Sure, as a Saints fan he should have been the likely choice to take over for Aaron Brooks but our idiotic front office choice another course of action which I wholeheartedly disagreed with. But that's neither here not there.

I really liked what I saw out of Matt Moore when the starred in limited action. if he gets a good amount of snaps in practice and in pre-season I see no reason why he would be worse than Delhomme. On the other hand, a project QB could definitely be the answer and I feel you guys could get some seemingly good value if you trade Ken Lucas and have Richard Marshall take over his starting spot opposite Gamble.

Rhett Bomar is the guy I would draft if I were the Panthers, if I couldn't land a QB in FA worth a damn. He should be there in the 3rd round for you guys to grab and I don't see how that would put you all out of any shape draft wise.

Needless to say, I see the Saints in the least likeliest position to compete in the NFC South for a while to come. The Panthers and Falcons are in a much better situation than us with the Bucs competing with us for the crap title of the division, however, i trust the hire of Raheem Morris a lot more than the retaining of Sean Payton.
I don't mind Bomar, but it keeps bringing me back to the old chestnut is he really better than Moore? If not, then there's no reason to draft him. As far as Delhomme goes, we need metronome on offense at the position. Mistake free passes with the occasional long shot, and I'd probably suggest part of that is the Panthers investing more time in a young signal caller.

I suppose if there's a time to do it, nows it. A 12-4 team that only needs some slight defensive line help, new coach used to working with Qbs, solid offensive line, excellent running game, good recievers. No time like the present.
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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I don't mind Bomar, but it keeps bringing me back to the old chestnut is he really better than Moore? If not, then there's no reason to draft him. As far as Delhomme goes, we need metronome on offense at the position. Mistake free passes with the occasional long shot, and I'd probably suggest part of that is the Panthers investing more time in a young signal caller.

I suppose if there's a time to do it, nows it. A 12-4 team that only needs some slight defensive line help, new coach used to working with Qbs, solid offensive line, excellent running game, good recievers. No time like the present.
What always bugs me is when you have a guy like Matt Moore on a team and in the action he has seen, he's been surprisingly good but a team insists on bringing in someone else anyway without giving the other guy a shot. Sure they see him in practice all the time but how many 1st team reps is he getting? Oh well, time to get off the soap box.
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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My eyes are burning after reading all this...
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Miller is visual sex on the field.
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Old 01-21-2009, 05:46 PM    (permalink
abaddon41_80
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For example, the Lions are QBless and are in desperate need for one and will most likely draft Stafford or Sanchez come April. Same can be said for the Chiefs, Viks and the 49ers,
This is news to me. Last I checked Shaun Hill was 198/317 (62.5%) for 2193 yards, 16 passing touchdowns, 3 rushing touchdowns, 8 interceptions, and a 7-3 record. At 29 and with no tread on the tires he still has at least 4-5 years left in him.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9
(ugh. titans fans used to be reliable for saying numerous things i completely disagreed with. someone bring back all the vince young superfans who were just as ridiculous in defending vince as some people are in tearing him down),
Ewing? Lol.

I've rarely had my stomach shoot up into my chest after seeing that a poster recently made a thread or post, but Ewing was very talented in that regard. I admit, I found some of his posts funny. But more times than not, I came away from one of his posts contemplating the need to change my screen name due to not wanting to be grouped with him.

Just to think how obnoxious Ewing and such were when the Titans were 4-0 last season, imagine how we were spared this season?
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Damn Ke$ha is sexy.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:28 AM    (permalink
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What always bugs me is when you have a guy like Matt Moore on a team and in the action he has seen, he's been surprisingly good but a team insists on bringing in someone else anyway without giving the other guy a shot. Sure they see him in practice all the time but how many 1st team reps is he getting? Oh well, time to get off the soap box.
I tend to agree, imo, if Atlanta wasn't so goddamn competitive this year moore probably would've got a game at the end of the year. I'd like to see him get a start sometime, but I think after the Cardinals fiasco the team will rally behind Delhomme.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Well TitanHope, where to begin? First off, Mario shouldn't have won the DPOY award. During week 10 or around there, yeah I would def put him the running for it, but his last 5 games of the year were mediocre, but he still finished the season off well with a sack and ended with 12, and 4 FF. So I put his 3rd season as a success. And I definitly agree that I am a die hard fan of his, but I know when to be objective.

As for me reveling in Young's failure, I did, but not this year, I did when half way through last years I saw that he wasn't playing well and people were still calling him the Golden Boy. But this year I think everything that he has received is due. Regardless of me being a Texan fan or not, or me being a Mario fan. His failures aren't a mystery and they aren't only seen by Mario, Cutler, or Texan fans. They are seen by everyone to say the least.

As for the Pro-Bowl comment and me calling the ROY award a popularity contest, they are, both of them. The reason why I even mentioned Mario going to the Pro-Bowl and him getting the award as a big deal, is because the fans and media have finally relized what kind of mistake they made calling Sam Bowie and calling him one of the biggest mistakes and the biggest bust in the hitory of the modern day draft era before he even played a down of NFL football. The Pro-Bowl is worthless. Fred Taylor only going to one is crime, Mario not going last year was ridiculous, and Bret Favre going this year was just as bad. So me calling the Pro-Bowl an accomplishment is only because it means he has been recognized which he so rightly deserved.

Also as for Jason Whitlock insult, I find it humorous that anyone that writes, tries to give their opinion or talks about sports, then in the same breath rips somebady that does the exact same thing is just the pot calling the kettle black. I wonder if you were paid to write a colomn, which you never would be, but if you did, how people would view you. I call someone reputable because they are paid, and I am not. Because they are paid, must mean that some one out there, obviously feels that the person has something to say that people want to hear, or will get at the very least a reaction out of someone and stirs up conversation To think that you or I could do it is just stupid. If you could you would. Does it make them right every time? Absolutely not, but at least they have readers, people who pay attention. You on the other hand, are only some guy behind a computer screen with a fake name. So to insult someone for giving credit to a paid professional is pretty low and quite lame. You, as well as almost everyone on here, would love to be in a position where our words were read by millions or at least by thousands.

Next, the undertone to your post, is also a pretty lame attempt to try and undercut me, when all I did was stat an opinion which you obviously disliked then try to take it out on me by insulting me in a very subtle way. I find your sarcasm intolerable and very immature.

Just because Young is on the train to Bustville, and just because I stated the obvious doesn't mean I have some undying hatred for the man. I don't give a **** about him. His success or lack there of has absolutely no effect on my life. So whether he does well, or does poorly, doesn't matter to me. But for arguments sake, I brought his name up for the topic and just like the Young aplogist's back in 2006 in Houston, you come a runnin to defend your guy to the death.

Congrates on making my thread another Young argument, and hijacking it to where it has become irrellevent.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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Jesus, I must be really killing myself with the NFLDC 15,000+ post club today, you and SNIPER, just plain awesome, you twisted my words to fit yours, thats fine, and thank God, as you put, that I don't waste my life away arguing about people I will never meet nor ever have an effect on my life. Have fun putting up another 15,000+ posts, and I really have to give it up to people like Star, Illmatic and AtariBigby for not allowing the so called cool kids with the fancy green squares to tear them down all the time.

Wonderful, keep it up, your logic and the cool clique of a bunch of green bars is what I aspire to be one day.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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I appreciate the neg rep also, I guess thats what I get for not being a guy that bows down to you and your posts and rep power. Damn, and I thought I was getting so close.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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My argument is right, Young is bad, and this guy comes on here to try and salvage it, Young is bad, it's not like I'm the only one seeing this. You guys are theone getting all crazy about.

And insults? I'm just stating the obvious.

Oh and all I did was give Whitlock credit, maybe I should have stated it differently, but I give him credit for doing what he's doign. If I could only write so well. Once again, if it doesn';t fit your view then it must be wrong.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Figured it was because it went down and you were so pissed, but thanks if it wasn't you, I think that too many people have this preconceived notion that all media is bad except Mike Mayock or Scott Wright, thats stupid, and not everyone that likes certain types are brain washed sheep. I have no problems with anyone on here, but if people are going to get pissed because of someone else's views then a forum is the wrong place to be in. Go to a sports bar, at least there you can get all drunklike and fight if the guy doesn't agree with you..lol
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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We don't know what Young would have been this year, he showed a lot of improvement from his rookie to sophomore year, and he was better than Kerry Collins ever was as a Titan, yet everyone loved fellating him.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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Young was terrible last year, we just went through this with 2 full pages. He was aweful, just aweful and the Titans won in spite of him. Thus the booing at the beginning of the year, thus the Young fiasco at the beginning of this year. It was because he hasn't playing well. It's not some grand conspirecy.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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If you say so, he still went form 51% to 62% while increasing his yards per pass with a crappy supporting cast.

Your argument is like me saying Mario Williams isn't good because even though he's putting up nice numbers, the defense for the Texans still blows. Why is that? Because you need to have a great supporting cast around you, and Vince had terrible receivers and a very mediocre running game, and he still put up better completion percentage. He had some bad interceptions, but that's what happens when you have to force passes into garbage.

I'm not saying he can't get a whole lot better, but he's not as bad as you want to believe, it seems to be a trend around here that we glorify all of the guys who have weapons around them and crucify the guys who can't put up pro bowl numbers with garbage around them.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:40 AM    (permalink
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to change the subject away from vince young, who needs a chance to improve, maybe next season. matt moore should be given a shot in carolina. delhomme has been good for them, but he is starting to falter. i am not saying just hand it over to moore, but give him a fighting chance. he played well when given the opportunity.
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