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Old 01-28-2009, 04:50 PM    (permalink
JT Jag
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Default Jimmy Smith: Top-10 WR of all time?

This guy seems to think he is: http://forums.footballguys.com/forum...ic=454016&st=0

His argument is actually very convincing, and fully backed up by deep statistical research.

Don't slam the idea until you read the thread. I'm a Jaguar fan, and even I never considered him to be that good until I read it. Thoughts?
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Old 01-28-2009, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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The main formula I'm using right now is receiving yards per season with a five yard bonus for each reception and a 20 yard bonus for each TD, and then only counting these adjusted yards above some mininum threshold (so that a 1500 yard season is worth a lot more than two 750 yard season).
it's a nice system, but he puts a lot of emphasis on yards. I think Jimmy Smith's biggest flaw was his lack of TD's. If I recall correctly, he never once had a 10+ TD season.

Edit: just checked the stats, and he never had more than 8 TD's in a single season.
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Old 01-28-2009, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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Yup, as Bengals said. Add onto the fact that other than longevity for him. He's not Top 10, but close.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to straight up rank receivers in a team sport with so may variables that depend on each other. Which is why I usually don't rank receivers period. Watching them play is the best indicator. How they catch the ball and what they do when it's in their hands.

I don't know what "ranking" I'd give Jimmy Smith. I'll just say he was one of the best to ever play and definitely a number one receiver. One of the most underrated players at this position in NFL history.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:22 PM    (permalink
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It's hard to straight up rank receivers in a team sport with so may variables that depend on each other. Which is why I usually don't rank receivers period. Watching them play is the best indicator. How they catch the ball and what they do when it's in their hands.

I don't know what "ranking" I'd give Jimmy Smith. I'll just say he was one of the best to ever play and definitely a number one receiver. One of the most underrated players at this position in NFL history.
Yea. Jimmy was one of my favorite WR's though.
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Old 01-28-2009, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy was a monster man. Guy could flat out play.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm not convinced. Lack of TDs is a huge weakness for such an argument.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Glade to see him get some respect
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:15 PM    (permalink
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Definately a great player, and an even better person from everything I hear, very humble, not a prima donna at all. I dont know if Im ready to put him in the all time top 10, but I will agree with Ness in saying he was definately one of the most underrated players ever and was the definition of consistency.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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Top Ten of all-time is a little much I think. Jimmy was a GREAT WR. But the lack of TD's is the one thing that holds him back though.
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Old 01-28-2009, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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i remember back in the day on some show, chris mccalister said he made every route look like the same coming out of a break and it was so hard to grasp what he was doing. one of the toughest to cover.
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Art Monk is way underrated..
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:09 PM    (permalink
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There's a lot of great WRs all time. Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, Randy Moss, Michael Irvin, Steve Largent, Paul Warfield, Dante Lavelli, Terrell Owens, Don Hutson, Ray Berry, Lance Alworth......Jimmy Smith is no where CLOSE to top 10 all time. He's a borderline hall of famer (he'll probably go), but there are so many all time great WRs in NFL history. Passing stats from the 1980s to the present are a little skewed b/c the passing game developed more and the rule changes favor passing offenses.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:58 AM    (permalink
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Art Monk is way underrated..
Really!??

A HOFer who averaged 57 yards receiving per game, only made the pro-bowl every fifth year, and never scored more than 8 TD's in a single season. I'd say he's extremely overrated if anything, as evident by him making the HOF.
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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I think Jimmy Smith is underrated but I dont think he is top 10 worthy
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:59 PM    (permalink
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No way in HELL is Jimmy Smith a top 10 WR of all time. You guys talking up Jimmy Smith, how about Rod Smith? Rod put up virtually the same numbers Jimmy did.
Both great players, but not all-time greats.
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Old 01-29-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy Smith isnt top 10.

No Don Hutson in the top 10 = fail other than Jerry Rice he was probably the greatest WR in NFL History. He says only WRs since 1960. Breaking News dude the NFL didnt start in 1960. Whats the point in having rankings if you dont factor in all the WRs???


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Really!??

A HOFer who averaged 57 yards receiving per game, only made the pro-bowl every fifth year, and never scored more than 8 TD's in a single season. I'd say he's extremely overrated if anything, as evident by him making the HOF.
Stats dont usually always tell the story. Monk had Gary Clark and Ricky Sanders stealing passes from him yearly. Heres just a few stats on why hes underrated to show you stats can work both ways....

Whos record did Jerry Rice break to become the top reception leader in NFL History in 1995?

Who was the first WR to catch 100 balls in a season?

Give up?

Art Monk

Monk is better than 23 imo. Honestly the WR rankings this guy has is a joke right now. The passing game has improved with every decade. If I was him I would of waited and watched gamefilm and then made a thread instead of just listing rankings based on stats.

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Old 01-29-2009, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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Art Monk being the all-time leader in receptions before 1995 doesn't really mean he was that great.... Just means he played a long time. Is Vinnie Testaverde the #6 QB of all time? Of course not, but he's #6 in all time passing yards because he played forever.

And having other good WR's on the team as a reason why he didn't perform? An elite WR should love to have other great WR's on the team because they can take away double teams.... But did Art Monk ever really require consistent double coverage?
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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Art Monk being the all-time leader in receptions before 1995 doesn't really mean he was that great.... Just means he played a long time. Is Vinnie Testaverde the #6 QB of all time? Of course not, but he's #6 in all time passing yards because he played forever.

And having other good WR's on the team as a reason why he didn't perform? An elite WR should love to have other great WR's on the team because they can take away double teams.... But did Art Monk ever really require consistent double coverage?
Comparing Art Monk to Vinny Testaverde is kinda funny.

Monk performed great in every aspect of the game. He helped the Redskins win games by moving the chains, making plays to win games, blocking which is something most WRs cant do nowadays, and he was a true leader for the Redskins. If the Redskins didnt have one of the best WR corps in NFL History he would of gotten more double coverage but also would of had bigger stats.

Did Art Monk ever complain about not getting the ball enough in games? No. He went out every Sunday and laid everything out there on the field for his team. When his career was all said and done he was the top reception leader in NFL History doing it the right way. Just because some of the stats arent there doesnt mean he wasnt a top WR. The stats can be tricky sometimes and in this case they are.

If Art Monk complained like Terrell Owens and wanted more targets he could of got them and put up huge numbers but guess what? The Redskins wouldnt of won the Super Bowls they did with Monk playing WR. If you say what do you want from a WR you look at a guy like Art Monk.
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Jimmy Smith isnt top 10.

No Don Hutson in the top 10 = fail other than Jerry Rice he was probably the greatest WR in NFL History. He says only WRs since 1960. Breaking News dude the NFL didnt start in 1960. Whats the point in having rankings if you dont factor in all the WRs???
The Modern NFL started when the NFL and AFL merged. That was shortly after 1960. There is a reason to only rank players from that time forward. Not only was it the modern NFL, it was also about the time games started being filmed, that means people could see the greats from that time now. We can't really see Don Hutson too easily. It isn't hard to see Max McGee play(just the first wr from that time i could think of.
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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The Modern NFL started when the NFL and AFL merged. That was shortly after 1960. There is a reason to only rank players from that time forward. Not only was it the modern NFL, it was also about the time games started being filmed, that means people could see the greats from that time now. We can't really see Don Hutson too easily. It isn't hard to see Max McGee play(just the first wr from that time i could think of.
Yeah 1966 I know. It just dont make sense to have a All-Time WR list and leave out maybe the best WR to ever play the game. I see what your saying about the gamefilm but a top WR list isnt the same without Don Hutson just like a QB list isnt the same without Sammy Baugh, etc.
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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Was he ever a top 5 WR in the league at any point? I dont think so.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Yeah 1966 I know. It just dont make sense to have a All-Time WR list and leave out maybe the best WR to ever play the game. I see what your saying about the gamefilm but a top WR list isnt the same without Don Hutson just like a QB list isnt the same without Sammy Baugh, etc.
I don't think anyone is leaving Jerry Rice off the list.
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Old 01-29-2009, 05:49 PM    (permalink
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I conducted my own study of Hall of Famers and how they compare to some of the receivers of the last five-to-ten years. I figured that if the Steelers win the Super Bowl, we will get the "Is Hines Ward a HOFer" or if Warner wins is he a HOFer.

I tried to do it similar to the Bill James Black Ink/Gray Ink system for baseball and assigned a few values different weights.

Black Ink = how many times a player led the league in a statistical category.
Gray Ink = how many times a player finished in the Top 10 in a statstical category

The stats I used were Yards/Reception (1x), TDs (1x), Receptions (2x), and Yards/Game (2x). I weighted it this way, because receptions and yards/game are better indicators than Y/R (which indicated more big plays, rather than consistent production, but should still be rewarded) and TDs (since you can get these in garbage time when down by a lot).

Now you might say receptions should count equally to TDs or more, but receptions are a better indicator of how many times the QB looked the WRs way.

I also included things like being named to the Pro Bowl, the All-Pro team, and rare MVPs. I think you also need to account for Super Bowl appearances, wins, and the rare MVP.

When I ran the numbers, Jimmy Smith came up 32nd. Some variables that came up were how do we determine AFL guys, since it was a pass-happy league and there were less teams playing.

I can share my spreadsheet, but don't know how to post it.
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Old 01-29-2009, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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Top 10 no, top 20 probably. He would have gotten more attention if he didnt play in Jacksonville.
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