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Old 01-31-2009, 06:46 PM    (permalink
boknows34
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
i think Dent will make it in next year
With Woodson, Smith and DT inducted I too would put Dent as the top defensive player in next year's Class.

Rice and Emmitt are slam dunks next year so it is already looking to be heavily slanted towards offense for 2010. If they balance the Class with a defensive player then Dent is the top choice. Cortez and Randle would also recieve major consideration. Those three look next in line for defensive players before Deion is eligible for 2011.

Tim Brown is also eligible for the first time next season but given Cris Carter's struggles I think he'll have to wait till Carter is inducted first.
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Old 01-31-2009, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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The HoF is an absolute disgrace to football. How does Tagliague not get in? How does Shapre not get in? Pitiful.
Can we remember something here? You can only send in a max of six each year. Every one of those guys deserved the honor. Who are you going to leave out?

Maybe we could have waited on Woodson. I would have chosen Carter over him. Or even Kuechenberg.

Dent needs to eventually get in. If Dan Hampton got in (which to me is ridiculous, unless I am missing something), then Dent needs to be elected.

McDaniel is a total stud. I'm happy for him.
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Old 01-31-2009, 07:40 PM    (permalink
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Another thing about Tagliabue is that the great Pete Rozelle was a finalist EIGHT times before getting elected. Tags may have to wait a while if it took Rozelle that long. Its always difficult to compare a commissioner over a player though. Tags will get in eventually. He'll just have to be patient.
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:29 PM    (permalink
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Tags is a jackass and does not deserve to be enshrined ever. Boo hoo Cleveland fans, get over it Art moved his team the right way because you're pathetic city wouldn't build a new stadium for such an allegedly "loved" team but you do for an expansion one. Tags help keep a team out of Baltimore for as long as he could and I will hate him with a passion forever.
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On another note, Nicklas Backstrom is amazingly good.
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Meanwhile, in hockey the other night, the Washington Capitals' Eric Belanger gets hit with a stick, loses EIGHT teeth, has an instant root canal in the locker room, comes back out and PLAYS and never says boo.

So new rule, NBA: Unless you have a root canal at halftime, SHUT UP AND PLAY!
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Old 01-31-2009, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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Another thing about Tagliabue is that the great Pete Rozelle was a finalist EIGHT times before getting elected. Tags may have to wait a while if it took Rozelle that long. Its always difficult to compare a commissioner over a player though. Tags will get in eventually. He'll just have to be patient.

To your point, look at how long it took for Ralph Wilson to get in. The guy is 90 and was an original owner from the inception of the AFL.

There is no rush to get Tagliabue in the Hall. Guys who fall into the "Contributor" category just take longer to get in, since you will mostly see only one go in per year.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:01 PM    (permalink
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I know it sucks that some guys have to wait to get in but at least there are enough guys that are worthy of getting in.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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To your point, look at how long it took for Ralph Wilson to get in. The guy is 90 and was an original owner from the inception of the AFL.

There is no rush to get Tagliabue in the Hall. Guys who fall into the "Contributor" category just take longer to get in, since you will mostly see only one go in per year.
I'm glad Wilson is still alive to see himself get elected as he obviously won't be around for many more years.
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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A look at the 1st-time eligibles in the next few years.

2010:
Jerry Rice, Emmitt Smith, Tim Brown, Aeneas Williams, Gary Anderson.

2011:
Deion Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Willie Roaf, Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin.

2012:
Will Shields.

2013:
Michael Strahan, Jon Ogden, Warren Sapp, Larry Allen, Morten Andersen, Bryant Young.


2012 is looking like the year for electing the leftovers from 2009-11. Current leftovers are Cris Carter, Richard Dent, Cortez Kennedy, John Randle, Shannon Sharpe, Andre Reed, Dermontti Dawson, Russ Grimm, Paul Tagliabue and Terrell Davis. The next two classes are going to be loaded.

Early prediction for 2010.

Rice and Emmitt are slam dunk 100% locks. Carter or Brown? Probably Carter as he's been snubbed twice already and I can't see Brown jumping the queue ahead of him. I'll go with two defenders. Any two from Dent, Big Tez and Randle. The other two spots are reserved for the senior nominees.

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Old 01-31-2009, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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Sharpe was absolutely amazing. He played at something like 6'2", 225, but always seemed bigger than that. He could throw devastating blocks, catch, run good routes, command a ton of respect from his teammates (since he worked extremely hard), and was intensely competitive.

He also won three Super Bowls with two different teams, and was the only reliable offensive skill player on that 2000 Ravens squad.

He shouldn't have to wait real long.

By the way, just as a side note...doesn't anyone think Sterling Sharpe should be considered? He and Terrell Davis should both get in before Bettis for certain and maybe Curtis Martin.

Last edited by tony77 : 01-31-2009 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Additional comments
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Old 01-31-2009, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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Dent, Randle, Carter, Sharpe and Grimm made the first cut down to 10 but did not make the final five. The first five to go were Tagliabue, Kennedy, Kuechenberg, Dawson and Reed.
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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i don't disagree with the premise (though i strongly disagree that sharpe *shouldn't* get in for a while), but why do you think so? i guess i mean, we're not talking kickers here. i don't believe there's a tight end bias in the hall.
I don't know, I think there might be a TE bias unless the guy is a real slam dunk like Kellen Winslow Sr., Ozzie Newsome, or Tony G. Although you could argue Sharpe could be as much of a slam dunk as some of those players. Additionally, all these WRs entering the fray might only hinder the situation.

I think Sharpe should get in though, he should. He was a great player, a championship player (can't undervalue his contribute to the Ravens), and he retired with both the all-time receptions and yardage mark for tight ends.

I'm not going to lie, I do wonder about steroid use. But without a hair of real proof, that can't factor in at all. Nevermind some of the shady tactics used by other enshrinees at Canton.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:54 AM    (permalink
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I don't know, I think there might be a TE bias unless the guy is a real slam dunk like Kellen Winslow Sr., Ozzie Newsome, or Tony G. Although you could argue Sharpe could be as much of a slam dunk as some of those players.
That is the same exact bias against Denver players that most of the Hall voters seem to have. It makes no sense how you can call Tony G a slamdunk to get into the hall, and not consider Sharpe one. While you do agree that he should get into the hall, it's the same reason why someone like Karl Mecklenburg doesn't get into the Hall. If Meck had played for the Giants, he would of been first ballot. If Sharpe had played for the Jets, he would of been first ballot no question.

And it's also the same reason why players like Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen, and Rod Smith won't get into the hall, simply beacuse they played for Denver. Despite going to SIX superbowls, and winning two. The Broncos as a Franchise only have TWO inductees into the HOF. When you consider that Detriot has 13 entries, Arizona has 11 entries, really makes you wonder.
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Old 02-01-2009, 02:59 AM    (permalink
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Cris Carter deserves better than this. What is their problem with him?
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:31 AM    (permalink
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Its a shame Cortez played on such terrible teams, the guy was incredible, one of the best DT's ever, but he's overlooked because he played in South Alaska/Egypt. Defensive player of the year on a 2-14 team is just amazing.
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Old 02-01-2009, 03:44 AM    (permalink
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If Meck had played for the Giants, he would of been first ballot. If Sharpe had played for the Jets, he would of been first ballot no question.
I have news for you. No tight end has ever been elected on the first ballot to the HOF. Not even 2nd ballot either. Winslow Sr had the shortest wait and that was still 3 years. Ozzie Newsome waited 4 years. Guys like Ditka (12), Casper (13) and Mackey (15) had to wait over a decade. Just be patient. Sharpe will get elected eventually.

As for Mecklenberg he most likely fell short of what was required for Canton. And there is absolutely no way he would have been a 1st ballot guy had he played in New York. It took the Giants' ILB Harry Carson 13 years to get elected so you can't say that. The only linebackers to be 1st ballot in the history of the HOF are Lawrence Taylor, Dick Butkus, Jack Lambert, Jack Ham, Mike Singletary and Ray Nitschke. That's how tough it is to make it 1st ballot. Meck was nowhere near that class. The linebackers I'd like to see get consideration next are Sam Mills and Rickey Jackson.



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And it's also the same reason why players like Terrell Davis, Tom Nalen, and Rod Smith won't get into the hall, simply beacuse they played for Denver. Despite going to SIX superbowls, and winning two. The Broncos as a Franchise only have TWO inductees into the HOF. When you consider that Detriot has 13 entries, Arizona has 11 entries, really makes you wonder.
Well for a start the Lions and Cardinals have been around for much longer than Denver. The Cards have been there since Day 1 in the NFL and the Lions started in the 1930's. Detroit also won 3 titles and reached 6 NFL title games during the 1950's so its fair to say they are going to have a few HOFers from that era before the AFL and Denver were even created.

And when you consider there were only 12 NFL teams at one point in the 1950's then there is a much greater chance of a HOF player having played for one of those teams. Dick 'Night Train' Lane is a prime example. He played for the Rams, Cardinals and Lions during his career (one quarter of NFL teams at the time) so you have probably counted him twice when you say Detroit has 13 and the Cards have 11 entries.

As for your list Rod Smith and Nalen have virtually no chance. Smith's numbers are already being left for dust. Look how Andre Reed is struggling to get elected and he has bigger numbers. He'll have to wait behind Rice, Carter, Brown and Reed for starters and maybe Ellard and Fryar too. Then you are going to have the next wave of Harrison, Bruce, Moss, TO and Holt. There are about 10 WRs I'd put in ahead of Rod Smith and we have also seen recently (Carter, Reed, Monk, Swann) how difficult it is for a WR to get elected. Rod will have to settle for Denver's Ring of Honour. Same for Nalen.

T.Davis was easily a Hall of Fame talent whose career was sadly cut short. I do think he can sneak in as a finalist next year and has at least a half-decent shot at eventually making Canton.
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Old 02-01-2009, 08:15 AM    (permalink
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I really liked Rod Smith as a player, but I will also use the Jimmy Smith argument....nice player, good player, not a great one. I think his career compares to Isaac Bruce and Chad Johnson (to this point, obviously, neither is retired). So if you think those guys belong, the Smith does, too.

But, I don't...

I am also glad Nalen's name was brought up. He was VERY good. I have him just ahead of Dermontti Dawson and honsetly, both ahead of Russ Grimm.

Let's also not forget that Denver has not had all that many GREAT teams. Other franchises that have been in existence for the same time period or less (KC, MIN, DAL, OAK) had some legendary teams with fantastic players on them. Elway carried all of those late-'80s Bronco teams. He needed a running game to help get him over the top, which Terrell Davis did for him (Marino could have used a guy like that too).

I am still in process of getting LBs and DBs numbers together on my charts. I bet I can find a compelling reason to make cases for Randy Gradishar or Tom Jackson, and definitely Steve Atwater.
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Old 02-03-2009, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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2011:
Deion Sanders, Marshall Faulk, Willie Roaf, Jerome Bettis, Curtis Martin.
Those first 3 guys may all end up as a 1st Ballot, but it's tough to tell....Faulk may still not get in the first time around, Curtis Martin will probably get in I think but he will be one of those guys who hangs around for awhile before seeing his name called.
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Those first 3 guys may all end up as a 1st Ballot, but it's tough to tell....Faulk may still not get in the first time around, Curtis Martin will probably get in I think but he will be one of those guys who hangs around for awhile before seeing his name called.
I agree. Thats a tough year for Bettis and Martin to get inducted. They would have a much better chance in 2012 when Will Shields will be the only 1st-time eligible to have Hall of Fame credentials.

Deion and Faulk are locks to go 1st ballot. Roaf should be too but may face stiff competition if the likes of Cris Carter, Shannon Sharpe and Richard Dent miss out again in 2010 which is possible as Rice/Emmitt have two spots reserved already for next year.

Bettis might have a 1st ballot chance given the romantic way he finished his career in Detroit and his great relationship with the media. Martin to me was a guy who was very good and very consistent for a very long time. He just never jumped out as an all-time great which for me is the criteria for a 1st ballot inductee. Both will be HOFers but I'd like to see those who are on the waiting list like Carter, Sharpe and Dent inducted before them.
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Old 02-03-2009, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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It's a shame that guys like Joe Namath and Lynn Swann are in yet guys like Chris Carter get left out.
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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It's a shame that guys like Joe Namath and Lynn Swann are in yet guys like Chris Carter get left out.
Lynn Swann had 16 catches for 364 yards and 3 touchdowns in four Superbowl appearances. He was the first wide receiver to be named a Superbowl MVP.

Joe Namath took the AFL on his back and made the league relevant. He outplayed the best quarterback the game has seen and pulled off the biggest upset in the history of the sport. To be quite frank, he was the NFL's first celebrity. He created the NFL stars that we know today.

Cris Carter caught a lot of footballs.

One of these days, all of you will learn that football is not baseball. This is not a sport that can be analyzed on statistical analysis. It is the ultimate team sport. That's why the people who matter, the guys who get remembered and immortalized are the ones who were on teams that had postseason success. The postseason is the only season that matters in the NFL. All of your accomplishments really don't add up to **** if you never helped bring home a ring.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:34 AM    (permalink
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Lynn Swann had 16 catches for 364 yards and 3 touchdowns in four Superbowl appearances. He was the first wide receiver to be named a Superbowl MVP.

Joe Namath took the AFL on his back and made the league relevant. He outplayed the best quarterback the game has seen and pulled off the biggest upset in the history of the sport. To be quite frank, he was the NFL's first celebrity. He created the NFL stars that we know today.

Cris Carter caught a lot of footballs.

One of these days, all of you will learn that football is not baseball. This is not a sport that can be analyzed on statistical analysis. It is the ultimate team sport. That's why the people who matter, the guys who get remembered and immortalized are the ones who were on teams that had postseason success. The postseason is the only season that matters in the NFL. All of your accomplishments really don't add up to **** if you never helped bring home a ring.
Did your case for Lynn Swann seriously just namely be put on Super Bowl Appearances? That doesn't mean he should be in the HoF. We was good, but he wasn't great.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:03 AM    (permalink
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As I mentioned in another thread...stats are good, but should not be the "be-all, end-all". Awards and dominance in the form of Pro Bowls, All-Pro teams, MVPs, and big-game performances all need to be factored into the equation.

I also think ability to live up to draft status needs to be considered.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:04 AM    (permalink
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Did your case for Lynn Swann seriously just namely be put on Super Bowl Appearances? That doesn't mean he should be in the HoF. We was good, but he wasn't great.
He was the first WR to be a Superbowl MVP.

He had a ridiculously large hand in winning 4 Superbowls.

He was on a team that dominated an entire Era of football.

He also played a majority of his ball prior to the "Mel Blount Rule" which allowed Receivers to basically be mugged.

You can't seriously try to cross 3 era's and complain about Carter because Swann was in, completely different game.

Even then, Swann had to wait until 2001. Carter will get in, he just gotta wait a few years.

Should Frank Gifford be in?

In comparison... Michael Irvin had more yardage but with 3 more seasons (All with the luxury of the League rules pushing bigger better offenses)..

He had 65 TD's to Swanns 51, even though he caught over 400 more passes.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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Chris Carter got screwed
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:38 AM    (permalink
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But he was a Champion with the Ravens ;)
Ugh that reminds me how much I hated Tom Donohue
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