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Old 02-03-2009, 02:13 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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...That's a big if on the Oline front. probably gonna lose Starks (not a bad thing) and Smith I have no clue what his status is. He's just always hurt. Simmons really I don't know what to think, another guy who's injuries are killing him. Nice thing though is that hopefully Rashard will come back and become an effective back.
Starks will be back, he's our "Franchise LT".

Simmons will be kept for depth hopefully. We don't gain or lose cap space by keeping him so, might as well keep him since he's familiar with the scheme and has a lot of starting experience.

We need a RT for Colon to move to RG and ditch the stupid style of ZBS they're trying to implement.

Smith will probably be brought back in a minimal contract with incentives.



As for Ben for MVP.

It could go either way..

Eli got it for: 19/34 55.9% 255 yards 2TD:1INT 2 Fumbles

Ben went: 21/30 70% 256 yards 1TD:1INT 0 Fumbles

Neithers game was awe-inspiring but, I can see the Argument that if Eli was MVP worthy, Roethlisberger was as well.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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Starks will be back, he's our "Franchise LT".

Simmons will be kept for depth hopefully. We don't gain or lose cap space by keeping him so, might as well keep him since he's familiar with the scheme and has a lot of starting experience.

We need a RT for Colon to move to RG and ditch the stupid style of ZBS they're trying to implement.

Smith will probably be brought back in a minimal contract with incentives.



As for Ben for MVP.

It could go either way..

Eli got it for: 19/34 55.9% 255 yards 2TD:1INT 2 Fumbles

Ben went: 21/30 70% 256 yards 1TD:1INT 0 Fumbles

Neithers game was awe-inspiring but, I can see the Argument that if Eli was MVP worthy, Roethlisberger was as well.

I think Holmes or Ben would have been a good choice. Holmes really did have a sick game. Ben did what franchise QBs are supposed to do, and that's to be able to drive his team down the field and score.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:23 PM    (permalink
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I think Holmes or Ben would have been a good choice. Holmes really did have a sick game. Ben did what franchise QBs are supposed to do, and that's to be able to drive his team down the field and score.
I agree'd with Holmes as MVP mainly because even though Ben "engineered" the drive per se. Holmes gained a lot of that yardage post-reception.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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I agree'd with Holmes as MVP mainly because even though Ben "engineered" the drive per se. Holmes gained a lot of that yardage post-reception.
Yeah that's the issue. I don't believe any of the giants had a breakout game like Fitz or Holmes did. I think Plax, Toomer, Boss, Tyree, and Smith had all catches, which fits our offense in terms of spreading the ball. But Holmes and Fitz both had sick games for WRs. So I can agree with Holmes, but I can also agree with Big Ben getting it. Like I said this is what seperates good Qbs from the others. The ability, in a pressure situation, to drive your team to win. That's what you want in a franchise QB. As a football fan I wanted to see if Ben had it in him, especially since he wet the bed in the first superbowl win. I came away very impressed with that comeback ability. Same can be said about Warner and Brady. Steelers had the lead, and we had the lead last year, and Brady and Warner brought their teams back. That's the quality I want in my franchise QB. Stats and all that is whatever but if my QB has that knack of bringing my team back in a pressure situation than I would value that quality as high as any for that position.

Last thing I want is a QB who puts sick numbers ALL season and post season, but in a HUGE pressure situation, he wets the bed and comes up empty. I guess in baseball you'd call that a big game pitcher in the playoffs. Smoltz off the top of my head fits that mold.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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I want to see what Ben can do without a great defense. I was impressed wth him in the Super Bowl but 17 TD's and 15 INT's in the regular season, that is very mediocre. Hell Grossman had had just as good of a season (apart from the INT's his SB year).

Ben is a good QB, but there is no way in hell I'm putting him with Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers...Heck I'll take Warner over Big Ben at this stage.

And all this "well if Arizona could shred them like they did in the 4th quarter, they must not be that good" is horseshit. They were the #1 defense in the entire NFL all year long, one game doesn't change that. Just like one game doesn't change the fact that Ben for a better part of the season was a pretty good QB, not a great one.

It's like the Eli argument, one great game or playoff run doesn't automatically put you into the elite category. I want to see both of those guys sustain success, and in Ben's case I want to see him put up numbers (apart from one season), not rely on his running, special teams, and defense.

Ben's a good QB, not an elite one.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:40 PM    (permalink
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I want to see what Ben can do without a great defense. I was impressed wth him in the Super Bowl but 17 TD's and 15 INT's in the regular season, that is very mediocre. Hell Grossman had had just as good of a season (apart from the INT's his SB year).

Ben is a good QB, but there is no way in hell I'm putting him with Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers...Heck I'll take Warner over Big Ben at this stage.

And all this "well if Arizona could shred them like they did in the 4th quarter, they must not be that good" is horseshit. They were the #1 defense in the entire NFL all year long, one game doesn't change that. Just like one game doesn't change the fact that Ben for a better part of the season was a pretty good QB, not a great one.

It's like the Eli argument, one great game or playoff run doesn't automatically put you into the elite category. I want to see both of those guys sustain success, and in Ben's case I want to see him put up numbers (apart from one season), not rely on his running, special teams, and defense.

Ben's a good QB, not an elite one.

Do it without a good defense? Why? Football is a TEAM game. You need a defense and an offense. He did his part by leading his team down the field in the biggest game ever. That should be good enough to indicate his talent level. It's not like his defense scored 5 TDs, and he didn't have any pressure.

I do agree, I wouldn't call Ben elite, but I do certainly think he is a damn good QB. In fact that whole draft class is plain sick. Eli, Ben, Rivers, Fitz, Taylor, Harris, and so on. The talent is just nuts!
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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I want to see what Ben can do without a great defense. I was impressed wth him in the Super Bowl but 17 TD's and 15 INT's in the regular season, that is very mediocre. Hell Grossman had had just as good of a season (apart from the INT's his SB year).

Ben is a good QB, but there is no way in hell I'm putting him with Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers...Heck I'll take Warner over Big Ben at this stage.

And all this "well if Arizona could shred them like they did in the 4th quarter, they must not be that good" is horseshit. They were the #1 defense in the entire NFL all year long, one game doesn't change that. Just like one game doesn't change the fact that Ben for a better part of the season was a pretty good QB, not a great one.

It's like the Eli argument, one great game or playoff run doesn't automatically put you into the elite category. I want to see both of those guys sustain success, and in Ben's case I want to see him put up numbers (apart from one season), not rely on his running, special teams, and defense.

Ben's a good QB, not an elite one.
Not rely on Running or ST's?

Have you watched a game this season? Our run game was non-existant.

Our ST's coverage was great. Our PR/KR's are worthless. I'm doubting we started on the opponents side of the field this season less than 2 times from getting punts within our own 30.

and not rely on his defense? There have been few if any teams that didn't need an exceptional defense to win a Championship. I'd say Bob Sanders had more of a hand in winning the 06 Superbowl than Manning did.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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Do it without a good defense? Why? Football is a TEAM game. You need a defense and an offense. He did his part by leading his team down the field in the biggest game ever. That should be good enough to indicate his talent level. It's not like his defense scored 5 TDs, and he didn't have any pressure.

I do agree, I wouldn't call Ben elite, but I do certainly think he is a damn good QB. In fact that whole draft class is plain sick. Eli, Ben, Rivers, Fitz, Taylor, Harris, and so on. The talent is just nuts!
Ok well then the STEELERS won their 6th SB. Hines, Polamalu, Parker, etc got their 2ND SUPERBOWLS. Not just Big Ben.

I think he's a good QB as well, albeit overrated. I never said he wasn't a good QB either, I said he was not elite and people should stop talking about it. Ben never had to "carry" his team this year. 17 TD's and 15 picks, on any other team without the #1 defense, that's not a very good year.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:44 PM    (permalink
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I want to see what Ben can do without a great defense. I was impressed wth him in the Super Bowl but 17 TD's and 15 INT's in the regular season, that is very mediocre. Hell Grossman had had just as good of a season (apart from the INT's his SB year).

Ben is a good QB, but there is no way in hell I'm putting him with Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers...Heck I'll take Warner over Big Ben at this stage.

And all this "well if Arizona could shred them like they did in the 4th quarter, they must not be that good" is horseshit. They were the #1 defense in the entire NFL all year long, one game doesn't change that. Just like one game doesn't change the fact that Ben for a better part of the season was a pretty good QB, not a great one.

It's like the Eli argument, one great game or playoff run doesn't automatically put you into the elite category. I want to see both of those guys sustain success, and in Ben's case I want to see him put up numbers (apart from one season), not rely on his running, special teams, and defense.

Ben's a good QB, not an elite one.

Clearly you never watched a steeler game. WHAT RUN GAME???? Special Teams? WHAT ST? They are great in coverage, that's it. This post is full of fail.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Ok well then the STEELERS won their 6th SB. Hines, Polamalu, Parker, etc got their 2ND SUPERBOWLS. Not just Big Ben.

I think he's a good QB as well, albeit overrated. I never said he wasn't a good QB either, I said he was not elite and people should stop talking about it. Ben never had to "carry" his team this year. 17 TD's and 15 picks, on any other team without the #1 defense, that's not a very good year.
Exactly. Steeler fans go on about Ben "winning" the title. Bull. Once again, Dilfer won a title. He did what he needed to do to win the game. He was not elite.

Ben is a good, not great quarterback.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Ok well then the STEELERS won their 6th SB. Hines, Polamalu, Parker, etc got their 2ND SUPERBOWLS. Not just Big Ben.

I think he's a good QB as well, albeit overrated. I never said he wasn't a good QB either, I said he was not elite and people should stop talking about it. Ben never had to "carry" his team this year. 17 TD's and 15 picks, on any other team without the #1 defense, that's not a very good year.
Then why make the argument?

Ben didn't have to carry his team this year? Yeah I often overlook the 6 game winning drives against the hardest schedule in the league posting a 12-4 mark.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:47 PM    (permalink
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Not rely on Running or ST's?

Have you watched a game this season? Our run game was non-existant.

Our ST's coverage was great. Our PR/KR's are worthless. I'm doubting we started on the opponents side of the field this season less than 2 times from getting punts within our own 30.

and not rely on his defense? There have been few if any teams that didn't need an exceptional defense to win a Championship. I'd say Bob Sanders had more of a hand in winning the 06 Superbowl than Manning did.
That's fine, but Ben's regular season was mediocre by the numbers and I had the chance to watch him at least 4 or 5 times.

He's not an elite QB no matter how you try and spin it. He's a good QB but he also needs help. Guys like Rivers, Manning, Brady, Brees can carry their teams IMHO. I don't see Ben doing that. When you have that kind of defense there's not a lot of pressure to put up big time numbers every week as there is for those other guys who don't have the benefit of having the best D in the league. And to be fair, HIS TEAM won the first SB, he played like dogshit and luckily they were facing a team that was not near on the same level as they were.

That last drive was sick, no doubt about it. But just like Manning, I want to see this success sustained, and apart from one very strong year he's been an average QB by the numbers with a very good supporting cast around him.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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That's fine, but Ben's regular season was mediocre by the numbers and I had the chance to watch him at least 4 or 5 times.

He's not an elite QB no matter how you try and spin it. He's a good QB but he also needs help. Guys like Rivers, Manning, Brady, Brees can carry their teams IMHO. I don't see Ben doing that. When you have that kind of defense there's not a lot of pressure to put up big time numbers every week as there is for those other guys who don't have the benefit of having the best D in the league. And to be fair, HIS TEAM won the first SB, he played like dogshit and luckily they were facing a team that was not near on the same level as they were.

That last drive was sick, no doubt about it. But just like Manning, I want to see this success sustained, and apart from one very strong year he's been an average QB by the numbers with a very good supporting cast around him.
He made the pro bowl last year. Played a brutal schedule, behind the worst Oline in the game, and still lead game winning drives. I'd say that's pretty good considering the circumstances.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:50 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. Steeler fans go on about Ben "winning" the title. Bull. Once again, Dilfer won a title. He did what he needed to do to win the game. He was not elite.

Ben is a good, not great quarterback.
Then Tom Brady never won a title, Sony did with their HD Camera's.

Then Peyton Manning never won a title, the colts defense did.


I don't get the Ben hate, I hear so much crap about how QB's Single handedly win the superbowl, except Ben Roethlisberger.

Peyton Manning won the superbowl.. Not because his defense, but he literally put all 10 of his offensive teammates and 11 of his defenders on his back and single handedly marched down the field?

How about Mannings superbowl #'s...

25/38 65.8% 247 yards 1TD:1 INT 1 Fumble lost.


Peyton single handedly won that game right?

How can you use a stupid argument about how a guy wins a game then use it against another player.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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Exactly. Steeler fans go on about Ben "winning" the title. Bull. Once again, Dilfer won a title. He did what he needed to do to win the game. He was not elite.

Ben is a good, not great quarterback.

Are you kidding me? Dilfer had a run game, dilfer had an Oline. Ben had no Oline, and had to lead about 6 game winning drives this year. You seriously are comparing Ben to Dilfer?
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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It's like the Eli argument, one great game or playoff run doesn't automatically put you into the elite category. I want to see both of those guys sustain success, and in Ben's case I want to see him put up numbers (apart from one season), not rely on his running, special teams, and defense.

Ben's a good QB, not an elite one.
I understand what your saying but do you just want the Steelers to stop putting a good defense out on the field so they can say, "hey look, ben is gonna do it without a great D"? No. You can't blame him for being on a team that prides theirselves on a scheme that works and one that Ben works in. His stats aren't there but the guy has wins and rings. I agree that he isnt elite but if he ever does put up those kind of numbers, which he wont because they are a run first team, like every HOF QB before the "passing era", people are gonna say that he couldn't have done it without his great D. Then you look at Brees who puts up those numbers and doesnt have the wins or the rings to his name. He's considered elite because of his numbers that are inflated by a lack of a running game, and being down so much because of the defense, or lack there of. Dont get me wrong, Brees is a good QB but he has those numbers for those reasons.

The fact is, Ben won this super bowl for the Steelers. Last super bowl, he may have hurt more than helped.
----
Soon enough, and I mean in maybe 10 years, there is gonna be a debate somewhere on who the better QB was. McNabb or Ben. McNabb has the stats, but Ben has the rings. They were on very similar teams at some point in their career. Ben won the SB and McNabb didnt/hasnt. Does that make Ben a better QB then McNabb because he was on a better team?
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Ok well then the STEELERS won their 6th SB. Hines, Polamalu, Parker, etc got their 2ND SUPERBOWLS. Not just Big Ben.

I think he's a good QB as well, albeit overrated. I never said he wasn't a good QB either, I said he was not elite and people should stop talking about it. Ben never had to "carry" his team this year. 17 TD's and 15 picks, on any other team without the #1 defense, that's not a very good year.
Yup. That's how it should be phrased and I crack up when fans say, how would this QB do without and then go on to list players? How would Manning do without Harrison or Montana without Rice, and so on. It's a team game. It is what it is.

Ben, Warner, Eli, Brady and I am sure other Qbs all showed an ability to come back. It so happened these teams played each other and so the last team with the ball won.

Yeah Ben never had to carry his team, but like I said, in the most crucial moment he was able to. That's all I ask of a QB. I don't care about the accolades and awards and such. But in the most crucial game, CAN your QB lead his team? If the answer is YES, then you can be my franchise QB.

But I do agree with you. You make valid points. But it's a team game, and the total team wins. I will say what I said to other people. When the Steelers needed a stop same with our defense, we couldn't do it. Warner scored on them, and Brady drove the ball and scored on us. The Qbs had to drive the length of the field and win it. That's a TEAM win. When one phase of the game needs you, YOU can step up and help out the team mates. That's what I define as TEAM. Ability to get each others back when needed. Ben and the Steelers showed that.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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When did I ever say he had a running game? I said he had a very good supporting cast (Miller, Ward, Washington, Holmes). When healthy Parker is a very good RB. An elite defense, good coverage unit...I guess I should have been more clear.

Ben is a piece to that puzzle, I just don't like that he's being lumped ahead of the team. Because without his teammates he doesn't have that SB in Detroit where he played like dogshit. This year he definitely was a bigger reason to why they won, hell he lead the winning drive.

I've seen every Pittsburgh fan on here come to Ben's rescue and that's fine but it's also a biased opinion. As I said, 17 TD's and 15 INT's on another team doesn't get it done. For me to lump him in with the elites he has to show more consistency in the passing game which was ranked 17th in the league this year. With the targets he has, I think he can do much better than that.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Are you kidding me? Dilfer had a run game, dilfer had an Oline. Ben had no Oline, and had to lead about 6 game winning drives this year. You seriously are comparing Ben to Dilfer?
Jermaine Lewis was the biggest reason for the Ravens.

Jamal and Rey Lewis got all the press, but Jermaine was the spark that ignited that team with his hellacious season as a return man.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Then Tom Brady never won a title, Sony did with their HD Camera's.

Then Peyton Manning never won a title, the colts defense did.


I don't get the Ben hate, I hear so much crap about how QB's Single handedly win the superbowl, except Ben Roethlisberger.

Peyton Manning won the superbowl.. Not because his defense, but he literally put all 10 of his offensive teammates and 11 of his defenders on his back and single handedly marched down the field?

How about Mannings superbowl #'s...

25/38 65.8% 247 yards 1TD:1 INT 1 Fumble lost.


Peyton single handedly won that game right?

How can you use a stupid argument about how a guy wins a game then use it against another player.
I never said "Peyton won a Superbowl". And to compare Ben to Peyton is asinine, because Peyton is obviously a MUCH better quarterback. Wins are an overrated stat, was my main point that you failed to get. But, if Brady got traded to the Lions for Calvin Johnson, and the Lions went 2-14, you'd probably think Brady was a bad QB due to only winning two games.

Ben makes a large amount of bad decisions, and is slow on his reads. Yes, he manages to break out of sacks, but a lot of the time it is HIS DAMN FAULT he was put in that position. That's like praising a running back who recovers his fumbles more often than other running backs, when you'd rather he just not fumble the goddamn ball.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Jermaine Lewis was the biggest reason for the Ravens.

Jamal and Rey Lewis got all the press, but Jermaine was the spark that ignited that team with his hellacious season as a return man.
And MVP Carrie Collins! Throwing the ball to anyone and everyone with no discrimination of uniform color! LOL. If your on the field you're fair game!
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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not rely on his running, special teams, and defense.
there...unless u mean Ben running the ball...which would make me question you more, because I don't see how his scrambling ability is a negative.
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Old 02-03-2009, 02:59 PM    (permalink
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I understand what your saying but do you just want the Steelers to stop putting a good defense out on the field so they can say, "hey look, ben is gonna do it without a great D"? No. You can't blame him for being on a team that prides theirselves on a scheme that works and one that Ben works in. His stats aren't there but the guy has wins and rings. I agree that he isnt elite but if he ever does put up those kind of numbers, which he wont because they are a run first team, like every HOF QB before the "passing era", people are gonna say that he couldn't have done it without his great D. Then you look at Brees who puts up those numbers and doesnt have the wins or the rings to his name. He's considered elite because of his numbers that are inflated by a lack of a running game, and being down so much because of the defense, or lack there of. Dont get me wrong, Brees is a good QB but he has those numbers for those reasons.
----
Soon enough, and I mean in maybe 10 years, there is gonna be a debate somewhere on who the better QB was. McNabb or Ben. McNabb has the stats, but Ben has the rings. They were on very similar teams at some point in their career. Ben won the SB and McNabb didnt/hasnt. Does that make Ben a better QB then McNabb because he was on a better team?
I think people are misinterpreting what I am trying to say so I'll rephrase;

I'm not blaming Ben for having a very good supporting case around him. I'm saying it needs to be taken into account when people start talking about "Hall of Fame QB." Are you kidding me? Winning rings doesn't get you to the HOF. His numbers up to this point have been good, not great, good. He had one "elite" season, but other than that he's been a middle of the pack numbers QB.

And yes he is a clutch QB as seen from his game winning drives this year. Peyton carried his team for much of the regular season when he won the SB and benefited from getting Sanders back on defense. Was Manning the reason they won the SB? No, the defense stepping up was what put them over the top. So no player can do it alone, but he had to carry his team more than Big Ben did. If Ben can show me that without a top tier defense he can still put "W's" on the board and get deep in the playoffs then I'll stand corrected, but until then, enough with the "is he elite" stuff, because he's not. He's a good QB that has that "clutch" factor.

He definitely shut me up in the SB as I was talking about how he was overrated and was a mistake waiting to happen. Now it's time for him to take the next step.
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Old 02-03-2009, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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there...unless u mean Ben running the ball...which would make me question you more, because I don't see how his scrambling ability is a negative.
I don't know why I said running to be honest, because I knew that he had an RB by committee season this year behind him. So that's my fault.
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