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Old 02-03-2009, 04:01 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Originally Posted by sweetness34 View Post
When did I ever say he had a running game? I said he had a very good supporting cast (Miller, Ward, Washington, Holmes). When healthy Parker is a very good RB. An elite defense, good coverage unit...I guess I should have been more clear.

Ben is a piece to that puzzle, I just don't like that he's being lumped ahead of the team. Because without his teammates he doesn't have that SB in Detroit where he played like dogshit. This year he definitely was a bigger reason to why they won, hell he lead the winning drive.

I've seen every Pittsburgh fan on here come to Ben's rescue and that's fine but it's also a biased opinion. As I said, 17 TD's and 15 INT's on another team doesn't get it done. For me to lump him in with the elites he has to show more consistency in the passing game which was ranked 17th in the league this year. With the targets he has, I think he can do much better than that.
He had a rough season, I agree. But look at this.


In games we lost Ben was...

80/134 59% 929 yards 3TD:10 INT

Games we Won:

201/335 60% 2,378 yards 14TD: 5 INT


I'd say the team bodes well when he does and not the other way around.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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I don't think he is a HOFer, but if he keeps racking up rings, rather than stats, then that can be a ticket in, bypassing those QBs with better stats. There are many ways to get in. Rings, Stats, or Both. He very well could get in due to rings, if he continues to win them along with his TEAM.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by sweetness34 View Post
I think people are misinterpreting what I am trying to say so I'll rephrase;

I'm not blaming Ben for having a very good supporting case around him. I'm saying it needs to be taken into account when people start talking about "Hall of Fame QB." Are you kidding me? Winning rings doesn't get you to the HOF. His numbers up to this point have been good, not great, good. He had one "elite" season, but other than that he's been a middle of the pack numbers QB.

And yes he is a clutch QB as seen from his game winning drives this year. Peyton carried his team for much of the regular season when he won the SB and benefited from getting Sanders back on defense. Was Manning the reason they won the SB? No, the defense stepping up was what put them over the top. So no player can do it alone, but he had to carry his team more than Big Ben did. If Ben can show me that without a top tier defense he can still put "W's" on the board and get deep in the playoffs then I'll stand corrected, but until then, enough with the "is he elite" stuff, because he's not. He's a good QB that has that "clutch" factor.

He definitely shut me up in the SB as I was talking about how he was overrated and was a mistake waiting to happen. Now it's time for him to take the next step.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. How exactly is he gonna do that? In order for you to consider Ben a better QB than you think he is right now, the Steelers need to get worse on defense?
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:02 PM    (permalink
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Are you kidding me? Dilfer had a run game, dilfer had an Oline. Ben had no Oline, and had to lead about 6 game winning drives this year. You seriously are comparing Ben to Dilfer?
No, I'm showing how being on a TEAM that wins the Superbowl doesn't make you a great player. Why do you think the team with the best defense in the NFL NEEDED 6 game winning drives? Because the offense obviously wasn't performing that well. I mean, when your defense is averaging 14 points allowed, and you need a game winning drive over a THIRD of the time, you can't tell me the offense is playing well. Especially when your defense is causing so many turnovers, resulting in good field position.

Now, that is the whole offense, not just Ben's fault, but the point is still there. Ben is not "winning" games for the Steelers. In fact, the Steelers are overcoming their offense, and winning games.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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I never said "Peyton won a Superbowl". And to compare Ben to Peyton is asinine, because Peyton is obviously a MUCH better quarterback. Wins are an overrated stat, was my main point that you failed to get. But, if Brady got traded to the Lions for Calvin Johnson, and the Lions went 2-14, you'd probably think Brady was a bad QB due to only winning two games.

Ben makes a large amount of bad decisions, and is slow on his reads. Yes, he manages to break out of sacks, but a lot of the time it is HIS DAMN FAULT he was put in that position. That's like praising a running back who recovers his fumbles more often than other running backs, when you'd rather he just not fumble the goddamn ball.
So he's a bad QB because he's not conventional?

He does make bad decisions. However there has been improvement every season (Not stats wise this season).
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:06 PM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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I don't think he is a HOFer, but if he keeps racking up rings, rather than stats, then that can be a ticket in, bypassing those QBs with better stats. There are many ways to get in. Rings, Stats, or Both. He very well could get in due to rings, if he continues to win them along with his TEAM.
Bradshaw got in moreso for Rings than his "Stats"

He is a very similar player. Bradshaw would move around in the pocket and take unneccessary hits/sacks to make big plays.

Ben's no different and another ring or 2 could certainly solidify his spot. Will he be lavished as a media face like Brady/Manning? Doubtful, but again, the guy just Wins.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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That's exactly what I'm talking about. How exactly is he gonna do that? In order for you to consider Ben a better QB than you think he is right now, the Steelers need to get worse on defense?
Either that or he needs to put up better than 17 TD's and 15 INT's. It's not his fault he's got that defense, but it does definitely benefit him.

Put him on a team like San Diego or Indianapolis and IMHO their play drops off because he's not the QB Rivers or Manning are. And it's also why I'm tired of the argument that "he has 2 SB's." No he doesn't, the Steelers do, especially with his first one. The 2nd alright I'll give that to him because of his huge comeback and the numbers he put up but I think winning a championship severely overrates a player. Manning was a great QB all his career but was missing that "championship." GMAFB, I hate that argument.

You throw Ben's numbers out there to an outsider and ask if he's elite, and they'll say no. The two championships I think puts him higher up than he should be at this point in his career.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Unless your name is Michael Jordan and go 6 for 6 in Titles (which neither Kobe or LeBron can say). ;)

I will say this, I'll take Ben over Eli any day of the week without a doubt.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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He had a rough season, I agree. But look at this.


In games we lost Ben was...

80/134 59% 929 yards 3TD:10 INT

Games we Won:

201/335 60% 2,378 yards 14TD: 5 INT


I'd say the team bodes well when he does and not the other way around.
Obviously the team is going to perform better when you're turning it over less. If you actually look at those stats, you see that in 4 games which were losses, Ben threw the ball 34 times a game. In the 12 wins, 28. In other words, the less Ben does, the better the Steelers do.

In fact, they are 7-4 when Ben passes the ball more than 25 times (In two of those games the offense was under 14 points, so it was hardly Ben "winning" the game), and 5-0 when he passes less. The reality is, Ben does better when less is asked of him. Illustrated further by the fact that in all game this year where he had a QB rating over 100, he had passes 30 or less times (two of the games were 20 or less). Yes, he does have games where he is needed to play well and he does. Because he is a GOOD quarterback. He is not elite. He is not top 5.
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Either that or he needs to put up better than 17 TD's and 15 INT's. It's not his fault he's got that defense, but it does definitely benefit him.
Well in 2007, he threw 32 TDs and 11 Ints. You can use his worst year for your argument and Ill use his best.

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Put him on a team like San Diego or Indianapolis and IMHO their play drops off because he's not the QB Rivers or Manning are. And it's also why I'm tired of the argument that "he has 2 SB's." No he doesn't, the Steelers do, especially with his first one. The 2nd alright I'll give that to him because of his huge comeback and the numbers he put up but I think winning a championship severely overrates a player. Manning was a great QB all his career but was missing that "championship." GMAFB, I hate that argument.
Only if you could prove that somehow...

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You throw Ben's numbers out there to an outsider and ask if he's elite, and they'll say no. The two championships I think puts him higher up than he should be at this point in his career.
Well, yeah. Winning does make you a more highly regarded QB.
Two super bowls in five seasons in the NFL...
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Old 02-03-2009, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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Brett Ratliff will be better than anyone to put on the pads next year.

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Old 02-03-2009, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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So he's a bad QB because he's not conventional?

He does make bad decisions. However there has been improvement every season (Not stats wise this season).
No, he's not a bad QB. But he does get sacked unnecessarily a lot of the time, and make a lot of throws he shouldn't make.

My point was, Ben occasionally turning something bad into something good isn't really a plus when most QB's would avoid the situation all together.

Rivers, Manning, Brees, they drop back, make a nice quick read and get a 14 yard gain. Not a big deal. Exact same play, Ben drops back, is slow in his read, gets pressure, avoids a sack, and manages to scramble out and find a WR for a 14 yard gain. The net gain is the same, but yet everyone praises Ben for doing something badly, and then making up for it by doing what the better quarterbacks would have done easily.

Note: I am not saying this happens all the time. I still think Ben is a top 10 quarterback. Just not top 5, and I need to point out his flaws to illustrate the fact. There are times where he does make a nice read. It just doesn't happen as consistently as the QB's I would put ahead of him. It would be nice if people stopped taking everything as me saying Ben is a horrible QB, when I am trying to point out why Ben is only top 10 as opposed to top 5.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:12 PM    (permalink
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Ben doesn't get enough credit. He should've been MVP but I can't complain with Santonio.

Harrisons Pick-Six was the real game changer that caused a 14 point swing in favor of Pitts. He should've been the MVP but he didn't have any stats besides that and 3 tckles.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Bradshaw got in moreso for Rings than his "Stats"

He is a very similar player. Bradshaw would move around in the pocket and take unneccessary hits/sacks to make big plays.

Ben's no different and another ring or 2 could certainly solidify his spot. Will he be lavished as a media face like Brady/Manning? Doubtful, but again, the guy just Wins.

Well you say the guy just wins, but I say the TEAM just wins. It does help that the total team is good. One huge factor is that your DC has no more Hcing aspirations. Teams like Philly, you and even the Bucs before had an adv because of defensive stability which added to the overall talent of the team. That can of thing is huge, when someone has no ego, and realizes why not be a legend at as a coordinator then be avg as a HC. That fact is huge for the overall talent of the team.
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Old 02-03-2009, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Obviously the team is going to perform better when you're turning it over less. If you actually look at those stats, you see that in 4 games which were losses, Ben threw the ball 34 times a game. In the 12 wins, 28. In other words, the less Ben does, the better the Steelers do.

In fact, they are 7-4 when Ben passes the ball more than 25 times (In two of those games the offense was under 14 points, so it was hardly Ben "winning" the game), and 5-0 when he passes less. The reality is, Ben does better when less is asked of him. Illustrated further by the fact that in all game this year where he had a QB rating over 100, he had passes 30 or less times (two of the games were 20 or less). Yes, he does have games where he is needed to play well and he does. Because he is a GOOD quarterback. He is not elite. He is not top 5.
Bens YPA also usually sits at the top of the league.

Normally Brady, Manning and such have a 6.5-7.5 YPA Average. Ben normally has an 8+ YPA average.

He does more in less attempts.
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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your wrong.

ben in 08: 7.04
peyton: 7.21

and peyton had an off year (in terms of ypa)

per espn.com
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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Then Tom Brady never won a title, Sony did with their HD Camera's.

Then Peyton Manning never won a title, the colts defense did.

Umm.... That's basically right. Tom Brady didn't win the Lombardi Trophy, the Patriots did. Tom Brady was just a part of the equation, much like Big Ben. Same with Peyton. We use stats and such to figure out how important of a piece each of them was to the overall success of the team that year.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:44 PM    (permalink
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Bens YPA also usually sits at the top of the league.

Normally Brady, Manning and such have a 6.5-7.5 YPA Average. Ben normally has an 8+ YPA average.

He does more in less attempts.
No, he does less in less attempts. That's mis-using the phrase more with less, because he isn't doing more, unless 3300 is now more than 4000.
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:00 PM    (permalink
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I love the YPA.

Career leaders once you get the Top 3 Legends that we know are great (Graham, Luckman, Van Brocklin) out of the way:

4. Tony Romo 8.1
5(tie). Kurt Warner 8.0
5(Tie). Steve Young 8.0
7. Ben Roethlisberger 7.9
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Old 02-04-2009, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Honestly that YPA avg stuff means nothing. That stat is a function of the talent around you at the skill position and most importantly the system you are in. Be it vertical stretch offense, horitzontal stretch one, or other various systems. Alot of that depends on the OC and how he writes the plays in terms of reads. For instance how is the progressions written. I can write a progression based on the closest route to the longest. While Qbs in an Air Raid system have progressions from top to bottom. So that stat really doesn't indicate much. If an OC created a system based on short to intermediate routes, using X basically to take the top off the coverage, while everyone else ran short to intermediate routes or horizontal stretch or Oblique stretches then my QB in that system would have a lower YPA. So I'd take that stat with a grain of salt because plays and systems ALL differ. There really is no concrete way to compare.
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:03 PM    (permalink
steelernation77
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Obviously the team is going to perform better when you're turning it over less. If you actually look at those stats, you see that in 4 games which were losses, Ben threw the ball 34 times a game. In the 12 wins, 28. In other words, the less Ben does, the better the Steelers do.

In fact, they are 7-4 when Ben passes the ball more than 25 times (In two of those games the offense was under 14 points, so it was hardly Ben "winning" the game), and 5-0 when he passes less. The reality is, Ben does better when less is asked of him. Illustrated further by the fact that in all game this year where he had a QB rating over 100, he had passes 30 or less times (two of the games were 20 or less). Yes, he does have games where he is needed to play well and he does. Because he is a GOOD quarterback. He is not elite. He is not top 5.
Now why would the team throw the ball less when they're winning? Just baffling...
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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ever heard about Running the clock out?
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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ever heard about Running the clock out?
I was being sarcastic.
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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and i meant the other guy...
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Old 02-04-2009, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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and i meant the other guy...
Internet is tricky
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