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Old 02-04-2009, 01:52 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by steelernation77 View Post
Now why would the team throw the ball less when they're winning? Just baffling...
Obviously a winning team is going to slow down throwing the ball, but that illustrates that the Steelers are a running team. They are at their best when the ground game is going.

Ben had a passer rating under 70 5 times this year. The team still went 2-3. Compare that to Kurt Warner (under 70 twice), Drew Brees (6 times), Jay Cutler (3 times), Philip Rivers (twice), and Peyton Manning (3 times under 70). Their teams went a combined 2-14. Those teams all relied on their quarterback a great deal more than Pittsburgh relied on Ben. They needed their quarterbacks to play well to have any chance. Pittsburgh does not really rely on Ben. Hell, Ben was actually under 60 5 times, the only quarterback to do that this year. Kyle Orton only went under 3 times. Trent Edwards twice. All of the guys above only went under a combined 7 times.

Ben gets a huge pass when he plays badly because his team around him is great. The others guys do not get the same pass because their mistakes are magnified. Their teams RELY on them much more than the Steelers rely on Big Ben.
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Old 02-05-2009, 07:50 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Whomecouldntbe View Post
Obviously a winning team is going to slow down throwing the ball, but that illustrates that the Steelers are a running team. They are at their best when the ground game is going.

Ben had a passer rating under 70 5 times this year. The team still went 2-3. Compare that to Kurt Warner (under 70 twice), Drew Brees (6 times), Jay Cutler (3 times), Philip Rivers (twice), and Peyton Manning (3 times under 70). Their teams went a combined 2-14. Those teams all relied on their quarterback a great deal more than Pittsburgh relied on Ben. They needed their quarterbacks to play well to have any chance. Pittsburgh does not really rely on Ben. Hell, Ben was actually under 60 5 times, the only quarterback to do that this year. Kyle Orton only went under 3 times. Trent Edwards twice. All of the guys above only went under a combined 7 times.

Ben gets a huge pass when he plays badly because his team around him is great. The others guys do not get the same pass because their mistakes are magnified. Their teams RELY on them much more than the Steelers rely on Big Ben.
Further proving you haven't watched the games and are only utilizing Stats to justify it.


Ben had a terrible season. His 4 losing games

80/134 59% 929 yards 3TD:10 INT


His 12 winning Games?

201/335 60% 2,378 yards 14TD: 5 INT

In the games we won that he was mediocre, he did enough to help us win, sure we probably won in spite of him.

But he also had 6 comebacks this season. Including the superbowl.

As for Pittsburgh being a running team? They were... until 2005 when Bettis retired. Why didn't you look those stats up?

Parker didn't even crack 800 yards at 3.8 a pop and was injured most of the season.

Mendenhall went down in like Game 4 with a season ending injury.

Moore had 588 Yards at 4.2 a pop.

we were 23rd overall in terms of yards per game rushing (105.6) and 29th overall in the league at Average per rush (3.7).

So to say we were carried and relied on the leagues 23rd and 29th rated run game is ridiculous.

And just throwing this out there. Do you see Mocks giving the Steelers offensive lineman in the first 3 picks? I do. Why? Because we have one of, if not the, worst OL in the league.

Chris Kemoeatu played decent for a first year starter and former 6th rounder.. but..

There were 4 new guys on this OL.

LT: Marvel Smith took his usual injury vacation and Starks/Essex had to step up at LT.

LG: Chris Kemoeatu showed his true colors. He's one of the most physical OG's in the game, however he struggles with blitz recognition and stunts. Want proof? Check how many sacks he gave up to Rookie Jason Jones of the Titans.

C: Hartwig was probably our best offensive lineman, in terms of overall play. He handled Shaun Rogers, Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, etc all one on one for the majority of the game and rarely lost those battles.

RG: Simmons went down with injury and we had no choice but to put in another finesse zone blocking Guard/Center. Stapleton played solid, but he's not a starter in this league, he doesn't have the strength to hold anchor against the better DT's. Dockett beat him for sacks twice. In all fairness though, Dockett beat Faneca for 3 the season prior.

RT: Colon is probably the most hated OL on this line, and it's stupid. The guy is clearly our best run blocker, but, he's a guard playing RT. The staff needs to draft a RT (Loadholt preferably) and slide Colon to RG, the run blocking on the right side would be amazing and the anchor would be tremendously upgraded. Colon is a poor mans Larry Allen. Short, powerful, Squat, nasty and a great run blocker. If only they utilized him properly.


So when you think about it.. 2nd year starter Willie Colon of Hofstra is our longest tenured offensive lineman.

Some of it is on Ben, but he's just that kind of player. Maybe he doesn't make his reads fast enough... Maybe he doesn't anticipate the blitz or the receivers routes well enough to get the ball out until their open.

The fact is, it works for him, and works well enough to win 2 SB's heading into his 6th year....

He's not conventional, a lot of people aren't "Conventional" in the position they play, but when it works, i gotta give them props.


Who does Pitt rely on? Willie Parker? Mewelde Moore? Santonio Holmes Pre-Playoffs? Hines Ward?

Yes, we rely on our defense, show me a team with a mediocre defense and I'll show you a team not going to win a superbowl.

God if only there were this many people trying to discredit Eli Mannings win last year and Roethlisberger did a hell of a lot more in this game than Eli did last year. Not to mention, his defense didn't play nearly as well against Zona that NYG's did against NE.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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Further proving you haven't watched the games and are only utilizing Stats to justify it.


Ben had a terrible season. His 4 losing games

80/134 59% 929 yards 3TD:10 INT


His 12 winning Games?

201/335 60% 2,378 yards 14TD: 5 INT

In the games we won that he was mediocre, he did enough to help us win, sure we probably won in spite of him.

But he also had 6 comebacks this season. Including the superbowl.

As for Pittsburgh being a running team? They were... until 2005 when Bettis retired. Why didn't you look those stats up?

Parker didn't even crack 800 yards at 3.8 a pop and was injured most of the season.

Mendenhall went down in like Game 4 with a season ending injury.

Moore had 588 Yards at 4.2 a pop.

we were 23rd overall in terms of yards per game rushing (105.6) and 29th overall in the league at Average per rush (3.7).

So to say we were carried and relied on the leagues 23rd and 29th rated run game is ridiculous.

And just throwing this out there. Do you see Mocks giving the Steelers offensive lineman in the first 3 picks? I do. Why? Because we have one of, if not the, worst OL in the league.

Chris Kemoeatu played decent for a first year starter and former 6th rounder.. but..

There were 4 new guys on this OL.

LT: Marvel Smith took his usual injury vacation and Starks/Essex had to step up at LT.

LG: Chris Kemoeatu showed his true colors. He's one of the most physical OG's in the game, however he struggles with blitz recognition and stunts. Want proof? Check how many sacks he gave up to Rookie Jason Jones of the Titans.

C: Hartwig was probably our best offensive lineman, in terms of overall play. He handled Shaun Rogers, Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, etc all one on one for the majority of the game and rarely lost those battles.

RG: Simmons went down with injury and we had no choice but to put in another finesse zone blocking Guard/Center. Stapleton played solid, but he's not a starter in this league, he doesn't have the strength to hold anchor against the better DT's. Dockett beat him for sacks twice. In all fairness though, Dockett beat Faneca for 3 the season prior.

RT: Colon is probably the most hated OL on this line, and it's stupid. The guy is clearly our best run blocker, but, he's a guard playing RT. The staff needs to draft a RT (Loadholt preferably) and slide Colon to RG, the run blocking on the right side would be amazing and the anchor would be tremendously upgraded. Colon is a poor mans Larry Allen. Short, powerful, Squat, nasty and a great run blocker. If only they utilized him properly.


So when you think about it.. 2nd year starter Willie Colon of Hofstra is our longest tenured offensive lineman.

Some of it is on Ben, but he's just that kind of player. Maybe he doesn't make his reads fast enough... Maybe he doesn't anticipate the blitz or the receivers routes well enough to get the ball out until their open.

The fact is, it works for him, and works well enough to win 2 SB's heading into his 6th year....

He's not conventional, a lot of people aren't "Conventional" in the position they play, but when it works, i gotta give them props.


Who does Pitt rely on? Willie Parker? Mewelde Moore? Santonio Holmes Pre-Playoffs? Hines Ward?

Yes, we rely on our defense, show me a team with a mediocre defense and I'll show you a team not going to win a superbowl.

God if only there were this many people trying to discredit Eli Mannings win last year and Roethlisberger did a hell of a lot more in this game than Eli did last year. Not to mention, his defense didn't play nearly as well against Zona that NYG's did against NE.

Yeah but The Pats were a much better team than Arizona, defense included. The offense obviously was sick with a healthy Moss and Brady, and O the whole 18-0 thing at that point.

Eli had 2 great games against the Pats. If you saw how he played in the last regular season game he tore that defense apart too. In the superbowl with 2 weeks, people thought that was enough for Bill B to come up with something sick. Eli pretty much was the key because we couldn't run the ball once Shockey went down because Boss was a rookie and sucked at run blocking.

Furthermore, our defense played well, but like you guys, when we needed them to make a stop, they couldnt. Brady and Moss marched right down the field and scored, setting up the last drive. If you actually watched the game, we were moving the ball pretty well on those guys, but needed that 1 big play to spark the offense.
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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Yeah but The Pats were a much better team than Arizona, defense included. The offense obviously was sick with a healthy Moss and Brady, and O the whole 18-0 thing at that point.

Eli had 2 great games against the Pats. If you saw how he played in the last regular season game he tore that defense apart too. In the superbowl with 2 weeks, people thought that was enough for Bill B to come up with something sick. Eli pretty much was the key because we couldn't run the ball once Shockey went down because Boss was a rookie and sucked at run blocking.

Furthermore, our defense played well, but like you guys, when we needed them to make a stop, they couldnt. Brady and Moss marched right down the field and scored, setting up the last drive. If you actually watched the game, we were moving the ball pretty well on those guys, but needed that 1 big play to spark the offense.
I'm aware of that.. but when that game was over this board was filled with posts stating that Eli has solidified himself among the elite.


Ben wins 2 in 3 years (of his 5 in the league) and he's being called overrated and being carried?

Eli needed quite a bit of help to win that game too. And lest we forget, it was the Pats OFFENSE that was the Juggernaut, their defense was just veteran enough to know what to do and how to play in big games.

Eli fought an aging and slowing group... it was the defense that stopped the Offensive superpower.

Same with Ben, The Cards were probably the best passing team in the league with the best Trio of WR's. I'd say Zona's defense was better or on par with NE's defense the year before. Their offense not quite but they had 3 great WR's not 1.5 (Yes Welker = .5). That said, I don't see why Ben should be getting bashed while Eli praised basically doing the same thing.

Justin Tuck was your Version of LaMarr Woodley (I'd have said it the other way around but, this is to avoid Sniper flipping).
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Old 02-05-2009, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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I'm aware of that.. but when that game was over this board was filled with posts stating that Eli has solidified himself among the elite.


Ben wins 2 in 3 years (of his 5 in the league) and he's being called overrated and being carried?

Eli needed quite a bit of help to win that game too. And lest we forget, it was the Pats OFFENSE that was the Juggernaut, their defense was just veteran enough to know what to do and how to play in big games.

Eli fought an aging and slowing group... it was the defense that stopped the Offensive superpower.

Same with Ben, The Cards were probably the best passing team in the league with the best Trio of WR's. I'd say Zona's defense was better or on par with NE's defense the year before. Their offense not quite but they had 3 great WR's not 1.5 (Yes Welker = .5). That said, I don't see why Ben should be getting bashed while Eli praised basically doing the same thing.

Justin Tuck was your Version of LaMarr Woodley (I'd have said it the other way around but, this is to avoid Sniper flipping).

That's fine considering Eli got most of the hate by all NFL fans. In fact some of the other giants fans on here copied and pasted some of the comments before that drive in their sigs as proof forever. The amount of BS and media hate Eli had to put up finally all went away. So he deserves that.

Their Defense was an aging group but still managed to step up when needed. I would say stronger defense than the Cards, with a veteran bunch who have won big games, masterminded by a HOF HC.

Eli did what we wanted him to do. Saying he needed quite a bit of help makes no sense because it's a team game. Do you expect Eli to play defense and special teams as well? Or any QB for that matter? So he did what we needed him to do.

Yeah cards had a sick offense, but let's they are still a 1 trick money. Their defense is avg, they lack NO running game what so ever, and Warner pretty much is that team. Pats are more well rounded. They may pass alot, but they still had the OL and RB to do damage. They simple just to milk the Brady to Moss combo. And then use Welker as well.

Can't compare Tuck to Woodley.. Two different positions. Ben shouldn't be bashed their is my point, but I am just defended Eli because of your post, not taking anything away from Ben. People need to release that actually All 4 QBs brought their teams back. That alone is a quality of an elite qb. Brady, Ben, Eli, and Warner all showed that. What did McNabb do in the superbowl? If I am not mistaken, TO called him out and said "he got tired". That's the difference some guys get "tired" while other guys lock in and bring their teams back.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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That's fine considering Eli got most of the hate by all NFL fans. In fact some of the other giants fans on here copied and pasted some of the comments before that drive in their sigs as proof forever. The amount of BS and media hate Eli had to put up finally all went away. So he deserves that.

Their Defense was an aging group but still managed to step up when needed. I would say stronger defense than the Cards, with a veteran bunch who have won big games, masterminded by a HOF HC.

Eli did what we wanted him to do. Saying he needed quite a bit of help makes no sense because it's a team game. Do you expect Eli to play defense and special teams as well? Or any QB for that matter? So he did what we needed him to do.

Yeah cards had a sick offense, but let's they are still a 1 trick money. Their defense is avg, they lack NO running game what so ever, and Warner pretty much is that team. Pats are more well rounded. They may pass alot, but they still had the OL and RB to do damage. They simple just to milk the Brady to Moss combo. And then use Welker as well.

Can't compare Tuck to Woodley.. Two different positions. Ben shouldn't be bashed their is my point, but I am just defended Eli because of your post, not taking anything away from Ben. People need to release that actually All 4 QBs brought their teams back. That alone is a quality of an elite qb. Brady, Ben, Eli, and Warner all showed that. What did McNabb do in the superbowl? If I am not mistaken, TO called him out and said "he got tired". That's the difference some guys get "tired" while other guys lock in and bring their teams back.
I have no problem with Eli. I don't think he's Elite but I think he, Rivers and Ben are on the Cusp of that.

My only issue was, no one used the Run game (Which is more potent with Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw) or Defense (which played amazing last season) against Eli when he won.

How come when Ben wins, everyone tries to take his accolades away, but when someone wins in similar fashion, he's elite and MVP?

It wasn't to bash Eli just to say that they're games in the Superbowl were almost identical and yet Eli was considered Elite, team leader, MVP and such.


If it were Me?

1) Tom Brady - Dude wins big games and did it with less talent than I've ever seen anyone else win with.

2) Peyton Manning - Consistency and skills.

3) Drew Brees - Considering the Video-Game offensive system and lack of defense few QB's would have better W/L's

4) Carson Palmer- Injuries and coaching have set him back but it's not hard to see when he plays that he's got "It". Though he could start falling if he can't turn that team around.

5) Ben Roethlisberger - Guy isn't conventional, doesn't put up great stats, but there's maybe 2 other QB's I'd want in there with the game on the line or in a tough game.

6) Eli Manning - Slowly but surely he is showing that he is a top Caliber QB in the league.

7) Phillip Rivers - He's looking to me like the next Peyton. Perhaps a little tougher. He's tough, can make all the throws and continues to lead his team to the playoffs. Playing with a torn ACL won me over. I think he will get his ring and it'll be a battle of him vs. Ben the rest of their careers.

8) Tony Romo - This is going to get me blasted.. "ELI, Phillip and BEN above Tony?" yeah. Romo is a great 3 month QB, but for some reason (Whether he, coaching or what not) just crumble in crunch time. He's a great guy, but he needs to take that team over the hump.

9) Donovan McNabb - 4 consecutive NFCCG appearances, 1 Superbowl appearance.. They guy plays great football. Always comes back and plays 1 great season when people write him off then he stumbles yet again. One of the better QB's around during his career but, I can't see him being a top 10 much more.

10) Kurt Warner - Yeah he's likely done and doesn't have much left, but the guy has played great football this season and mostly every other season he was given a chance. Leading 2 different teams to the superbowl is no easy feat. Especially one of the most prolific offenses of our time.

Near misses:

Jason Campbell - Soon.. he's showing all the intangibles just needs to push his team further.

Aaron Rodgers - Pre-liminary results are great, can he keep it up and help his team to the playoffs and keep a winning record?

Matt Hasselback - He's a great WCO QB, but I don't know if he's top 10.

Jay Cutler - He probably deserves it over McNabb/Warner now that I think about it as he's a rising star.. but.. his teams collapses on defense held them out of the playoffs. Not that it's on him, I just want to see him in crunch time before I pass judgement.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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I have no problem with Eli. I don't think he's Elite but I think he, Rivers and Ben are on the Cusp of that.

My only issue was, no one used the Run game (Which is more potent with Jacobs, Ward and Bradshaw) or Defense (which played amazing last season) against Eli when he won.

How come when Ben wins, everyone tries to take his accolades away, but when someone wins in similar fashion, he's elite and MVP?

It wasn't to bash Eli just to say that they're games in the Superbowl were almost identical and yet Eli was considered Elite, team leader, MVP and such.


If it were Me?

1) Tom Brady - Dude wins big games and did it with less talent than I've ever seen anyone else win with.

2) Peyton Manning - Consistency and skills.

3) Drew Brees - Considering the Video-Game offensive system and lack of defense few QB's would have better W/L's

4) Carson Palmer- Injuries and coaching have set him back but it's not hard to see when he plays that he's got "It". Though he could start falling if he can't turn that team around.

5) Ben Roethlisberger - Guy isn't conventional, doesn't put up great stats, but there's maybe 2 other QB's I'd want in there with the game on the line or in a tough game.

6) Eli Manning - Slowly but surely he is showing that he is a top Caliber QB in the league.

7) Phillip Rivers - He's looking to me like the next Peyton. Perhaps a little tougher. He's tough, can make all the throws and continues to lead his team to the playoffs. Playing with a torn ACL won me over. I think he will get his ring and it'll be a battle of him vs. Ben the rest of their careers.

8) Tony Romo - This is going to get me blasted.. "ELI, Phillip and BEN above Tony?" yeah. Romo is a great 3 month QB, but for some reason (Whether he, coaching or what not) just crumble in crunch time. He's a great guy, but he needs to take that team over the hump.

9) Donovan McNabb - 4 consecutive NFCCG appearances, 1 Superbowl appearance.. They guy plays great football. Always comes back and plays 1 great season when people write him off then he stumbles yet again. One of the better QB's around during his career but, I can't see him being a top 10 much more.

10) Kurt Warner - Yeah he's likely done and doesn't have much left, but the guy has played great football this season and mostly every other season he was given a chance. Leading 2 different teams to the superbowl is no easy feat. Especially one of the most prolific offenses of our time.

Near misses:

Jason Campbell - Soon.. he's showing all the intangibles just needs to push his team further.

Aaron Rodgers - Pre-liminary results are great, can he keep it up and help his team to the playoffs and keep a winning record?

Matt Hasselback - He's a great WCO QB, but I don't know if he's top 10.

Jay Cutler - He probably deserves it over McNabb/Warner now that I think about it as he's a rising star.. but.. his teams collapses on defense held them out of the playoffs. Not that it's on him, I just want to see him in crunch time before I pass judgement.


O I agree, believe me, I know what it is to fight off haters from your own fan base and other peoples fan base, so I wouldn't take away anything from Ben or any QB that wins. But the thing ben and rivers have that's good is that they are/were in good systems, while Eli's system stunk. We had to fire out OC and send his butt to canada, while you guys got sick guys like Whisenhunt and SD, Cam Cameron, who is now working with Flacco. I think Eli's development was closer because of that. Factor in system, and I don't see Eli ever putting up big numbers in this offense. Rivers will no doubt, he is in an Air Coryll system. That system was the same as Kurt Warner when he was with the Rams.

That's why I hate comparing QBs because the systems, protections, reads, coaches, and personnel are NOT the same. So while the position is the same, everything else is basically comparing apples to oranges.

People shouldn't be hating on Ben for his accomplishments.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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Eli is right where he should be...I thought it was a reach to trade all of those draft picks to get him on draft day. He set personal records for Comp% (60%), YPA (6.8), and INT% (2.1). He should be a good (not great) QB in this league for a while so long as he builds on 2008 in terms of efficiency and keeps a strong running game.

And yes, Tuck and Woodley are not comparable. Woodley is a DE/OLB, while Tuck is a DE/DT; the Giants line him up as a pass-rush tackle in obvious passing downs on occasion.

I put my QBs in this order from a "who-I-want for 2009" standpoint

1. Peyton
2. Brady (If his knee is fine, I put him 1 and Manning 2)
3. Brees
4. Warner
5. Roethlisberger

Long-term:

1. Brady
2. Peyton
3. Roethlisberger
4. Brees
5. Cutler

Mr. Stiller, just curious how you ranked your QBs?
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:46 AM    (permalink
Mr. Stiller
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Eli is right where he should be...I thought it was a reach to trade all of those draft picks to get him on draft day. He set personal records for Comp% (60%), YPA (6.8), and INT% (2.1). He should be a good (not great) QB in this league for a while so long as he builds on 2008 in terms of efficiency and keeps a strong running game.

And yes, Tuck and Woodley are not comparable. Woodley is a DE/OLB, while Tuck is a DE/DT; the Giants line him up as a pass-rush tackle in obvious passing downs on occasion.

I put my QBs in this order from a "who-I-want for 2009" standpoint

1. Peyton
2. Brady (If his knee is fine, I put him 1 and Manning 2)
3. Brees
4. Warner
5. Roethlisberger

Long-term:

1. Brady
2. Peyton
3. Roethlisberger
4. Brees
5. Cutler

Mr. Stiller, just curious how you ranked your QBs?
Tuck/Woodley was a joke.. both had 2 sacks in pivotal points in the game.. that was the comparison.

I ranked my QB's with Skills/Intangibles, considered Accomplishments, and playoff success.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by tony77 View Post
Eli is right where he should be...I thought it was a reach to trade all of those draft picks to get him on draft day. He set personal records for Comp% (60%), YPA (6.8), and INT% (2.1). He should be a good (not great) QB in this league for a while so long as he builds on 2008 in terms of efficiency and keeps a strong running game.

And yes, Tuck and Woodley are not comparable. Woodley is a DE/OLB, while Tuck is a DE/DT; the Giants line him up as a pass-rush tackle in obvious passing downs on occasion.

I put my QBs in this order from a "who-I-want for 2009" standpoint

1. Peyton
2. Brady (If his knee is fine, I put him 1 and Manning 2)
3. Brees
4. Warner
5. Roethlisberger

Long-term:

1. Brady
2. Peyton
3. Roethlisberger
4. Brees
5. Cutler

Mr. Stiller, just curious how you ranked your QBs?
Yeah Eli had his best seasons because this was his 2nd season in this system with Kildrive calling the plays. Now that the stench of Hufangel is gone, he can develop more under the a real QB coach and not Gilbride who hadn't done it since the Warren Moon days. Accorsi really liked Eli, and actually from his book the story goes, we drafted Rivers, but the Browns wanted Eli and Smith was close to trading Eli to the Browns. That was one thing Accorsi talks about in his book, that he really was nervous about. He didn't want to get stuck with a QB that they didn't want. It was either Eli or Ben, not rivers, and they told the Maras they'd get Manning. Also, AJ Smith wanted Osi, and Accorsi said that was a deal breaker, hence we gave away picks instead. That allowed us to Plax, Pierce, and McKenzie. If we draft Ben, and keep our picks, Accorsi said we can't sign ALL 3 and perhaps 2 of those free agents.

So everything happened for a reason.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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yea, the steelers dont have the worst OL in the league.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:54 AM    (permalink
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SMS,

Could you imagine how terrible Eli would have been in Cleveland? That franchise is a total mess.
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:58 AM    (permalink
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SMS,

Could you imagine how terrible Eli would have been in Cleveland? That franchise is a total mess.
Yeah, but you never know.. I would be curious to see how Accorsi would have faired. He had to convince Wellington Mara for Eli because Mara was old school and loyal to Kerry Collins. And finally he agrees and instead your GM botches it up and you end up with Rivers instead of Eli or Ben like was discussed.

Here is the story of what happened. This is an small account from Ralph V's book.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...-2.html?page=0
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Further proving you haven't watched the games and are only utilizing Stats to justify it.


Ben had a terrible season. His 4 losing games

80/134 59% 929 yards 3TD:10 INT


His 12 winning Games?

201/335 60% 2,378 yards 14TD: 5 INT

In the games we won that he was mediocre, he did enough to help us win, sure we probably won in spite of him.

But he also had 6 comebacks this season. Including the superbowl.
What are you even trying to argue? How does this prove that Ben is a) A top 5 QB in the league, or b) that he is less relied on than the other top QB's? His comeback drives do not impress me, because with a defense that allows 14 points a game, if you're a top 5 QB, you shouldn't NEED a last minute drive to win a goddamn game. It means you've done nothing all game. Especially when the Steelers defense gave them so many turnovers. My only arguments in this thread have been that Ben isn't top 5 in the league, and that the Steelers don't rely on Ben as much as the other top QB's in the league are relied on.

And both of those are goddamn obvious, and shouldn't have to be argued. Honestly, gun to your head, you think that the Steelers come close to a championship with the Cards defense? The Indy Defense? How about Denvers? Their defense won them that championship. Ben helped, but WAS NOT a major player.

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As for Pittsburgh being a running team? They were... until 2005 when Bettis retired. Why didn't you look those stats up?

Parker didn't even crack 800 yards at 3.8 a pop and was injured most of the season.

Mendenhall went down in like Game 4 with a season ending injury.

Moore had 588 Yards at 4.2 a pop.

we were 23rd overall in terms of yards per game rushing (105.6) and 29th overall in the league at Average per rush (3.7).

So to say we were carried and relied on the leagues 23rd and 29th rated run game is ridiculous.
Never even said that. I said the Steelers do best when their ground game is going. I never said their ground game was good this year. But, in a game if the Steelers have a chance to ride the run game, they will do that instead of rely on Ben's arm. I have put up so many stats I am sick of having to use them, but when the Steelers ground game was clicking this year they did much better than when they had to rely on Ben. Hell, even with the ground game struggling, teams were worrying more about the run than they were about Ben. That's why despite a mediocre run game Ben still did so well off of PA.

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And just throwing this out there. Do you see Mocks giving the Steelers offensive lineman in the first 3 picks? I do. Why? Because we have one of, if not the, worst OL in the league.

Chris Kemoeatu played decent for a first year starter and former 6th rounder.. but..

There were 4 new guys on this OL.

LT: Marvel Smith took his usual injury vacation and Starks/Essex had to step up at LT.

LG: Chris Kemoeatu showed his true colors. He's one of the most physical OG's in the game, however he struggles with blitz recognition and stunts. Want proof? Check how many sacks he gave up to Rookie Jason Jones of the Titans.

C: Hartwig was probably our best offensive lineman, in terms of overall play. He handled Shaun Rogers, Jamal Williams, Vince Wilfork, etc all one on one for the majority of the game and rarely lost those battles.

RG: Simmons went down with injury and we had no choice but to put in another finesse zone blocking Guard/Center. Stapleton played solid, but he's not a starter in this league, he doesn't have the strength to hold anchor against the better DT's. Dockett beat him for sacks twice. In all fairness though, Dockett beat Faneca for 3 the season prior.

RT: Colon is probably the most hated OL on this line, and it's stupid. The guy is clearly our best run blocker, but, he's a guard playing RT. The staff needs to draft a RT (Loadholt preferably) and slide Colon to RG, the run blocking on the right side would be amazing and the anchor would be tremendously upgraded. Colon is a poor mans Larry Allen. Short, powerful, Squat, nasty and a great run blocker. If only they utilized him properly.


So when you think about it.. 2nd year starter Willie Colon of Hofstra is our longest tenured offensive lineman.

Some of it is on Ben, but he's just that kind of player. Maybe he doesn't make his reads fast enough... Maybe he doesn't anticipate the blitz or the receivers routes well enough to get the ball out until their open.

The fact is, it works for him, and works well enough to win 2 SB's heading into his 6th year....
HE HASN'T WON 2 SUPERBOWLS. The Steelers have. The first time Ben literally tried to lose the game 3-5 times. This time the defense CARRIED them all the way there, and Ben played alright. In no way did Ben win them anything. Goddamn, it isn't Cutler's, Rivers', Peyton's, Brees', or Warner's fault that they play on teams with MUCH inferior defenses to Ben's. Ben was lucky to land on a GREAT team. Stop saying he has won them anything, because that's so goddamn sickening.

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He's not conventional, a lot of people aren't "Conventional" in the position they play, but when it works, i gotta give them props.

Who does Pitt rely on? Willie Parker? Mewelde Moore? Santonio Holmes Pre-Playoffs? Hines Ward?

Yes, we rely on our defense, show me a team with a mediocre defense and I'll show you a team not going to win a superbowl.

God if only there were this many people trying to discredit Eli Mannings win last year and Roethlisberger did a hell of a lot more in this game than Eli did last year. Not to mention, his defense didn't play nearly as well against Zona that NYG's did against NE.
A) Yes, Pitt relies on their defense, and about 6 guys on their defense more than Ben.

B) I haven't said anything about Eli. No one really thinks Eli "won" his team the Superbowl either. Everyone knows it was the defense.

C) 90% of this has nothing to do with what I'm arguing, about Ben not being a top 5 QB, and not being as heavily relied on as the other top QB's.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:09 PM    (permalink
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HE HASN'T WON 2 SUPERBOWLS. The Steelers have. The first time Ben literally tried to lose the game 3-5 times. This time the defense CARRIED them all the way there, and Ben played alright. In no way did Ben win them anything. Goddamn, it isn't Cutler's, Rivers', Peyton's, Brees', or Warner's fault that they play on teams with MUCH inferior defenses to Ben's. Ben was lucky to land on a GREAT team. Stop saying he has won them anything, because that's so goddamn sickening.


Is this a joke? I agree the first game Ben didn't do anything...but how can you seriously sit there and not say Ben wasn't huge this postseason and in the super bowl. Obviously Ben benefits from a great defense, SO DO MOST SUPERBOWL WINNERS. He was a big part of why they when. Yes the defense had a big pick six, and yes they did a good job holding the Cards for awhile, but they broke down. Ben then lead them 88 yards in about a min 30. With that awful line and the amount he gets sacked, it's a miracle he can do any of those things. But you're right, the defense made him drive down the field, just like the other five last min comebacks . They allow him the oppurtunity to, but he is the one that goes out and does it. No one here is calling Ben top 5.
He didn't win them the super bowl...but he was a huge part, not to many QBs can make those broken plays turn into huge ones like Ben does.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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Is this a joke? I agree the first game Ben didn't do anything...but how can you seriously sit there and not say Ben wasn't huge this postseason and in the super bowl. Obviously Ben benefits from a great defense, SO DO MOST SUPERBOWL WINNERS. He was a big part of why they when. Yes the defense had a big pick six, and yes they did a good job holding the Cards for awhile, but they broke down. Ben then lead them 88 yards in about a min 30. But you're right, the defense made him drive down the field, just like the other five last min comebacks . Please. No one here is calling Ben top 5.
He didn't win them the super bowl...but he was a huge part, not to many QBs can make those broken plays turn into huge ones like Ben does.
I agree the STEELERS TEAM won the superbowl. That's what we went through last year and Steelers did this year. They used their defense and offense to win the superbowl. That's what GOOD TEAMS have working for them. Even if one unit gets attention is ranked higher, in the end for last year's superbowl and this year's superbowl, the WHOLE TEAM has to come through, offense and defense. In the end that reflects on the coaching staff and GM for making paying attention to both sides of the ball.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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I agree the STEELERS TEAM won the superbowl. That's what we went through last year and Steelers did this year. They used their defense and offense to win the superbowl. That's what GOOD TEAMS have working for them. Even if one unit gets attention is ranked higher, in the end for last year's superbowl and this year's superbowl, the WHOLE TEAM has to come through, offense and defense. In the end that reflects on the coaching staff and GM for making paying attention to both sides of the ball.
O I agree the team won, I'm just ticked that he's implying Ben does NOTHING and that he strictly Benefits from a good defense.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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O I agree the team won, I'm just ticked that he's implying Ben does NOTHING and that he strictly Benefits from a good defense.
Damn, obviously, since I have said multiple times that Ben is a top 10 QB, he isn't only benefiting from the defense.

HOWEVER, he did not win them the game. And the Steelers rely much more on their defense than on their offense, or, Big Ben.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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O I agree the team won, I'm just ticked that he's implying Ben does NOTHING and that he strictly Benefits from a good defense.
Get used it to though. As a giants fan I can tell you NFL fans usually want the perfect setting.. A defense that scores 3 TDs and a QB that passes for 300 + yards and has 3 or 4 TDs. Then they can say the TEAM won it. Anything else it doesn't compute. Ben is a great QB, and he did what he needed to win. Did the defense help? Sure, but when the chips were down, Ben has to lead his team. Same with the Giants defense, when they were on the field for the last drive, Brady scored, just like Warner did. The offense, which is part of the overall team had to do it's job to win it. That's what good teams do.

One thing I will say is teams like the Steelers and Eagles are lucky in the sense that their DC's just sit there and don't go for interviews or have HCing aspirations. That is HUGE in this NFL setting. We won and now lost Spags. But teams like the Steelers and Eagles know that they will have stability on the defensive side of the ball. Their Legends don't leave meaning that side of the ball is golden. So as long as the offense clicks, the overall TEAM will be great. That's a huge adv., but none the less doesn't take away from the QB's play and impact to the overall team.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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A QB is the MVP of games much more often than they get the MVP for the game. They just give it to other players because many fans get tired of QB's winning MVP's. There's even a little bit of racial politics hidden in there. Most QB's are white and many people wouldn't like it if a white guy was winning MVP all the time.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Further proving you haven't watched the games and are only utilizing Stats to justify it.
Finally, I'm sick of this argument. If that was true, I wouldn't say that a QB who is 21st in completion percentage, 14th in yards, 17th in YPA, 15th in TD's, 4th in INT's, and 24th in QB rating is a top ten QB in the league.

Obviously, if stats are my be all and end all, Ben is not even close to a top 10 QB. He would be somewhere around 15th, instead of being 7-9th ranked QB. Come up with a real defense.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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A QB is the MVP of games much more often than they get the MVP for the game. They just give it to other players because many fans get tired of QB's winning MVP's. There's even a little bit of racial politics hidden in there. Most QB's are white and many people wouldn't like it if a white guy was winning MVP all the time.
Many media guys have to vote, and that's not the case. The media panel votes before the game is done, and have to pick MVPs for both teams just in case. Then they tally it up and go from there.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Damn, obviously, since I have said multiple times that Ben is a top 10 QB, he isn't only benefiting from the defense.

HOWEVER, he did not win them the game. And the Steelers rely much more on their defense than on their offense, or, Big Ben.

Tell me how do u explain the final drive in the super Bowl? Or the other 5 times he did it? I'm not saying the steelers rely on Ben. I know they are bigger on defense. But, when it's crunch time and the offense needs a score, they DO rely on Ben. He's done it A LOT this year. Yes, the defense allows Ben to come up with the those drives, but Ben still has to go out and do it.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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Tell me how do u explain the final drive in the super Bowl? Or the other 5 times he did it? I'm not saying the steelers rely on Ben. I know they are bigger on defense. But, when it's crunch time and the offense needs a score, they DO rely on Ben. He's done it A LOT this year. Yes, the defense allows Ben to come up with the those drives, but Ben still has to go out and do it.
I completely agree CJ.

I completely missed the offensive playcall going Turtle mode in the 2nd half and how the defense didn't allow the biggest comeback in superbowl History.
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Old 02-05-2009, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by captainjack27 View Post
Tell me how do u explain the final drive in the super Bowl? Or the other 5 times he did it? I'm not saying the steelers rely on Ben. I know they are bigger on defense. But, when it's crunch time and the offense needs a score, they DO rely on Ben. He's done it A LOT this year. Yes, the defense allows Ben to come up with the those drives, but Ben still has to go out and do it.
So that makes him a top 5 QB in the league, or more relied on than the QB's that need to come out and perform every game?

Because that's all I'm arguing. And if you're arguing that, you think he is better than Peyton, Brady, Rivers, Brees, Warner, McNabb, Cutler, and is more important to his team than any of them.
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