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Old 03-26-2009, 11:44 PM    (permalink
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Default Scott Pioli: Overrated?

In the NFL, hope plays an important role. The top 10 teams hope to win the Super Bowl and the bottom 10 teams hope to make the playoffs. It’s no surprise that Kansas City fans and media were feeling pretty good about their 2-14 team after turning the hopeless duo of Carl Peterson and Herman Edwards into Scott Pioli and Todd Haley. Why? Because it’s Scott Pioli, the mastermind behind three Super Bowl teams, a great eye for talent in draft and free agency with consecutive “Executive Of The Year Awards” from 2003-2004 to boot. So let’s take a look at what his impact on the Chiefs has been so far and what KC fans should expect from his drafts.

  • The Chiefs have switched to a 3-4 defense:

This is an odd decision when you consider that a lot of personnel doesn’t the 3-4. Why are the talents of the best three technique prospect since Warren Sapp being wasted at nose tackle or five technique? Tamba Hali at outside linebacker? Yuck. How badly will Brandon Flowers get burned playing press man coverage? Sometimes we get too excited about the potential deceptiveness of a 3-4 pass rush and forget that 4-3 teams like the Colts and Bengals have made their pass rush unique and deceptive too.
  • Traded 34th pick for Matt Cassel and Mike Vrabel:


I’ve never been a fan of Cassel. I feel like he’s a spread system QB that wasn’t needed since they already had one of those in Tyler Thigpen. Maybe I’m wrong, but let us see what he can do without Welker and Moss. Not much needs to be said about Vrabel. He’s a bad contract that couldn’t get many sacks in the linebacker friendly defense of the Patriots.
  • Signed guys like Bobby Engram and Mike Goff while pissing off Brian Waters:

These are stop gap guys, but at least they can start. On the other hand, Brian Waters is an all-pro and might be the best left guard in the NFL.

Now look at some Patriot Drafts:

2005
1/32 – Logan Mankins, Guard
3/84 – Ellis Hobbs, Cornerback
3/100 – Nick Kaczur, Right Tackle
4/133 – James Sanders, Safety
5/170 – Ryan Calridge, Outside Linebacker
7/230 – Matt Cassel, Quarterback
7/255 – Andy Stokes, Tight End
Most analysts will agree that getting 3 starters out of a draft class is considered good, with anything more being great. Keep that in mind as you look at these classes. Logan Mankins has worked out great. Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur and James Sanders are solid contributors even though each could be upgraded this year. Matt Cassel is an incredible pick when you consider that they turned the 230th pick into the 34th. I just wonder why it had to be Pioli’s 34th?

2006
1/21 – Laurence Maroney, Running Back
2/36 – Chad Jackson, Wide Receiver
3/86 – David Thomas, Tight End
4/106 – Garrett Mills, Fullback
4/188 – Stephen Gostkowski, Kicker
5/136 – Ryan O’Callaghan, Tackle
6/191 – Jeremy Mincey, Linebacker
6/205 – Dan Stevenson, Guard
6/206 – LeKevin Smith, Defensive Linemen
7/229 – Willie Andrews, Cornerback

I think we can officially call Laurence Maroney a bust. He’s oft-injured and a ballerina in the backfield. We know Chad Jackson is a bust because he got kicked to the curb last training camp. Stephen Gostkowski, a kicker, is the only solid contributor.

2007
1/24 – Brandon Meriweather, Safety
4/127 – Kareem Brown, Defensive End
5/171 – Clint Oldenburg, Tackle
6/180 – Justin Rogers, Linebacker
6/202 – Mike Richardson, Cornerback
6/208 – Justise Hairston, Running Back
6/209 – Corey Hilliard, Tackle
7/211 – Oscar Lua, LB
7/247 – Mike Elgin, Guard/Center

Brandon Meriweather hasn’t shown up as the Top-15 talent with character problems that he was billed as back in 2007. The four interceptions can give Pat fans hope though. Patriots have gotten nothing other than that though. They did get Wes Welker and Randy Moss from this draft though.

2008
1/10 – Jerod Mayo, Linebacker
2/62 – Terrence Wheatley, Cornerback
3/78 – Shawn Crable, Linebacker
3/94 – Kevin O’Connell, Quarterback
4/129 – Jonathan Wilhite, Cornerback
5/153 – Matthew Slater, Wide Receiver
6/197 – Bo Ruud, Linebacker

Winning the Defensive Rookie Of The Year makes Jerod Mayo’s future look promising. He is a little overrated because his skills at shedding blocks are below average. I don’t think we should expect much out of the rest of these picks because they were all reaches. Terrence Wheatley was an especially confounding pick.

All in all, Scott Pioli has made some questionable decisions so far and his recent drafts have proven to be lackluster. Scott Pioli might not be the right guy to turn this team around. But at least Kansas City fans can still hope.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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Of course he's overrated, simply because he's considered some incredible super genius who is head and shoulders above all other NFL execs.

His success has a lot to do with a very good coaching staff and talented players with great leadership.

That's not to say he isn't a very good exec though. But no one is as good as Pioli's current rating.
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:52 PM    (permalink
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All I can say is when hes been the GM this team has been very good
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Old 03-26-2009, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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Every single person in the history of the world will make, has made and will continue to make bad decisions. I don't mean to feign naivity here but I fail to see your point.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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We haven't for sure switched to a 3-4, but one would argue that, looking at our defensive stats from last year, we didn't have the personnel to run a 4-3 either.

I don't really get the point of this thread either. As a Chiefs fan replacing Peterson with Pioli was the best possible thing that could have ever happened to this organization. We've made some moves this offseason, which King Carl almost never did, and Pioli is shaking things up.

On Cassel, Vrabel, Engram and Goff: The last three will provide veteran leadership to a young team. Yes, they're stopgap players, but we do have some solid people on the team who could use a little coaching and time to develop (Rudy Niswanger (C), Barry Richardson (RT), Will Franklin (WR) etc) so these players can help mentor those younger guys. As for Cassel, I didn't like the move originally and I'm still kind of on the fence about it, but it's nice to have an above average QB for a change. As to wether or not he's GREAT or FRANCHISE, well, that hasn't been determined yet. I do love the fact he's making moves though.

Right now it's pretty sweet to be a Chiefs fan.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by vidae-KC View Post
We haven't for sure switched to a 3-4, but one would argue that, looking at our defensive stats from last year, didn't have the personnel to run a 4-3 either.
LOL. True.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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I think you have to give him at least one season in KC before starting this thread.
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Old 03-27-2009, 07:29 AM    (permalink
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*They're not 100% switching to a 3-4 in 2009.

*Thigpen is a high school quarterback. The amount of adjustments Chan Gailey had to make for Thigpen to not fail horribly is insane. Thigpen wasn't allowed to throw the ball away. If his primary receiver wasn't open, he tucked it and ran or took a sack. Those were his instructions. Watch him prior to these adjustments, and you'll see what I'm talking about. Thigpen's not even close to the same world that Cassel's in. Thigpen can't read defenses, can't go through progressions, and just can't function in any kind of offense you can win a game in in the NFL. Cassel reads defenses, goes through progressions, makes adjustments, is one of the best prepared players in the NFL, and is a perfect fit for Haley's offense.

*Vrabel was never really a sack guy, he's more of a do-it-all utility LB. He had a couple seasons where he racked up some sacks, but that's really not his MO. The Pats had a ton of injuries at LB (OLB in particular) in 2008, so Vrabel had zero help on top of a hodge podge secondary.

*Waters put himself in that position. Goff and Engram are very good signings for any team. You're missing the point that Pioli is a free agent GM. He'll find low-cost free agents that have specific skills that fit what his coaches want to do, and buy into the team's winning philosophy. Signings like this and not catering to a disgruntled player are why the Patriots have 3 trophies.


Quote:
2005
1/32 ? Logan Mankins, Guard
3/84 ? Ellis Hobbs, Cornerback
3/100 ? Nick Kaczur, Right Tackle
4/133 ? James Sanders, Safety
5/170 ? Ryan Calridge, Outside Linebacker
7/230 ? Matt Cassel, Quarterback
7/255 ? Andy Stokes, Tight End
Most analysts will agree that getting 3 starters out of a draft class is considered good, with anything more being great. Keep that in mind as you look at these classes. Logan Mankins has worked out great. Ellis Hobbs, Nick Kaczur and James Sanders are solid contributors even though each could be upgraded this year. Matt Cassel is an incredible pick when you consider that they turned the 230th pick into the 34th. I just wonder why it had to be Pioli?s 34th?
You mean 5 starters?

Quote:
2006
1/21 ? Laurence Maroney, Running Back
2/36 ? Chad Jackson, Wide Receiver
3/86 ? David Thomas, Tight End
4/106 ? Garrett Mills, Fullback
4/188 ? Stephen Gostkowski, Kicker
5/136 ? Ryan O?Callaghan, Tackle
6/191 ? Jeremy Mincey, Linebacker
6/205 ? Dan Stevenson, Guard
6/206 ? LeKevin Smith, Defensive Linemen
7/229 ? Willie Andrews, Cornerback

I think we can officially call Laurence Maroney a bust. He?s oft-injured and a ballerina in the backfield. We know Chad Jackson is a bust because he got kicked to the curb last training camp. Stephen Gostkowski, a kicker, is the only solid contributor.
You can't call a guy a bust when the reason for his lack of production is injuries. Ghost isn't a "solid contributor", he's ******* Pro Bowl kicker. And LeKevin Smith is emerging as a very good 3-4 DL.

Quote:
2007
1/24 ? Brandon Meriweather, Safety
4/127 ? Kareem Brown, Defensive End
5/171 ? Clint Oldenburg, Tackle
6/180 ? Justin Rogers, Linebacker
6/202 ? Mike Richardson, Cornerback
6/208 ? Justise Hairston, Running Back
6/209 ? Corey Hilliard, Tackle
7/211 ? Oscar Lua, LB
7/247 ? Mike Elgin, Guard/Center

Brandon Meriweather hasn?t shown up as the Top-15 talent with character problems that he was billed as back in 2007. The four interceptions can give Pat fans hope though. Patriots have gotten nothing other than that though. They did get Wes Welker and Randy Moss from this draft though.
Brandon Meriweather was one of the better safeties in the NFL last year. He was easily the best defensive back on the team. You obviously have no clue. They didn't have any needs or room on their roster going into this draft, so they had to take a bunch of guys they hoped would stick on their practice squad and develop later.

Quote:
2008
1/10 ? Jerod Mayo, Linebacker
2/62 ? Terrence Wheatley, Cornerback
3/78 ? Shawn Crable, Linebacker
3/94 ? Kevin O?Connell, Quarterback
4/129 ? Jonathan Wilhite, Cornerback
5/153 ? Matthew Slater, Wide Receiver
6/197 ? Bo Ruud, Linebacker

Winning the Defensive Rookie Of The Year makes Jerod Mayo?s future look promising. He is a little overrated because his skills at shedding blocks are below average. I don?t think we should expect much out of the rest of these picks because they were all reaches. Terrence Wheatley was an especially confounding pick.
2008 was a great draft. Mayo is going to be in the middle for the Pats for a long time. Crable was extremely promising before going to the IR. Kevin O'Connell was a highly thought-of QB prospect and is going to develop directly behind Tom Brady. Kid's going to basically go through the whole off-season preparing as the starting QB of the New England Patriots. He's going to develop quickly, and he showed a ton of potential. Wilhite turned out to be a great special teams player and is going to give incoming free agents and rookies a run for the #2 CB spot, and while I would have rather had Charles Godfrey with the Wheatley pick, Wheatley looked damn good prior to going to the IR.

And you're missing one of the biggest reasons for Pioli's success. He's a great player evaluator, but he's an even better staff evaluator. Look at the coaches and scouts he's brought in that have gone on to much bigger roles...
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Old 03-27-2009, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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Funny the coaches you mention go on to bigger roles, have all sucked at them.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:08 AM    (permalink
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Funny the coaches you mention go on to bigger roles, have all sucked at them.
Mangini did a great job with the Jets, and Charlie Weis made Notre Dame relevant again. But I was more speaking of front office guys like Dimitroff.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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if you're talking about maroney, his lack of production is because he sucks. the injuries are incidental.
You're right. Averaging 4.5 yards per carry does suck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:20 AM    (permalink
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you really can't overrate 3 rings no matter who you think 'won' those rings. Yes age has taken its toll on the Patriots but they have one of the best winning %'s over the last 10 years. How much does that attribute to Pioli? 2%? 25%? 13? No one knows. But he did have a very important role in the Patriot Way.

And you can't say anything bad about what he has done for KC as of yet. They have sucked the last 2-3 years. He is bringing the philosophy from NE which helped him win 3 Super Bowls to a franchise that badly needed reconstruction.
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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That's his job. He's a homerun hitter. Teams have to respect his speed when he's in the backfield, which makes the Pats' offense nearly unstoppable. That's why they drafted him. The Patriots always have a nice stable of backs that can all do specific jobs very well.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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*yawn*

let me know when you've actually watched him *****-foot around the backfield and are going to do something other than quote lame stats and this might turn into an interesting discussion.
Oh boo-hoo. I have watched him and just because he doesn't run full steam straight ahead into the pile and gain 2 yards all the time you think he sucks. He produced when Josh "what-is-a-running-back" McDaniels gave him the chance. He's a cut-back runner and he does his job. He's the most talented running back on the Patriots by far. Sorry you can't recognize that just because you don't like his style.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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He is a homerun hitter like Rob Deer was. 19 Homeruns, .212 average, .275 OBP, 200ks.
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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Didnt know having 3 super bowl rings made you overrated... Would love to see what he would have done with the chiefs draft last year.
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Old 03-27-2009, 09:48 AM    (permalink
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and seriously, boo hoo? really?
That was in response to your childish *yawn* comment. Sorry if that was too complicated for you. I guess when someone makes a valid point you have to resort to things like that instead of intelligent discussion. Hey it's your opinion, so you go with it.

As for me, when a guy runs for over 800 yards, has 4 out of 5 100 yard games, is playing behind a very overrated O-Line which in most games does not run block very well, and with a play caller who completely abandons the running game in the second half every week, yeah I'd say that's a pretty good back who deserves more opportunity to run the ball. He also proved to be very explosive catching the ball on swing passes but McDaniels failed miserably to take advantage of that. I'm hoping he gets those opportunities this year now that McDaniels is gone.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Puppy Puncher = Brian Waters' son?


What a pessimistic thread, seemingly based solely on upsetting Brain Waters. The Maroney/Jackson draft certainly looks to be the only true fail for Pioli & BB since they took over in NE. But even that is too recent to be sure. We'll find out for sure if O'Callahan, LeKevin Smith and David Thomas can play over the next 2 seasons.

Merriweather is very good and my crystal ball says he earns his first pro-bowl appearance this year. Considering the rest of that draft consisted of Welker & Moss I'd say that's pretty stellar, which you did mention.


The biggest ommission from your post is the fact that every time a top player goes down someone else steps up. That is the measure of the FO's effectiveness. Be it Brady, Seymour, Adalius, Maroney, or the entire defensive secondary - the next guy in line steps up and plays well enough to not be a glaring hole. Coaching is certainly part of that, but I'd say - based on KC's success over the last few seasons - that anything is an upgrade. Going out and poaching one of the consensus best in the league is a great move.

The second biggest would be the 2000-2004 drafts that you conviently left out.
2004 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Wilfork, Watson, Hill (rip)

2003 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Bethel Johnson (bum), Dan Klecko, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen

2002 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Dan Graham, Deion Branch, Rohan Davey, Jarvis Green, David Givens,

2001 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
Richard Seymour, Matt Light

2000 PATRIOTS DRAFT PICKS
ok, Redmond in the 3rd . . . meh. Brady in the 6th on the other hand . . . and Patrick Pass in the 7th

They do great in the draft and free agency. What the hell are you looking for in KC of Pioli isn't good enough? Overrated . . . maybe, but the success of NE makes it tough to defend calling him overrated. How many championships does a guy need to be "as good as advertised" in your opinion?


I don't mind Maroney being considered a bust, but to say he sucks is just stupid. He dances too much, but that (imo) is more a function of a guy who can't stay healthy enough to break through the 'rookie happy-feet' syndrome.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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given that you usually make pretty coherent, well reasoned arguments (honestly), i'll be waiting to hear why, in the face of almost all evidence, he doesn't suck.
The guy has talent. He has good speed, is elusive and can deliver a hit on defenders. He went off in the 07 post season, accumulating nearly 300 total yards & 2 TDs in two playoff games in 2007 until NYG destroyed everything the Pats tried to do offensively.

A career long TD of 59 yards and enough 10+ yard gains to go with that over his injury plaqued career. I would mention the 4.5 ypc, but you pre-emptively nixed that as an argument ;)

He absolutely has not panned out, but it seems to be b/c of injury. To say he sucks is unfair, imo. Call him a bust* and define the * as 'injury related' and I'm ok with it. Call him a bust and say he sucks and I'm going to disagree. Get him on the field for a full season (however doubtful that may be) and see how he does. If he can't do any better than his usual backfield dancing then I'll be willing to say he sucks.

Thanks for the compliment.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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Didnt know having 3 super bowl rings made you overrated... Would love to see what he would have done with the chiefs draft last year.
Actually this is a pretty decent example of how he likely has become overrated. Pioli was part of an organzation that won 3 Superbowls. That doesn't mean it will translate to success by himself in Kansas City as all. Romeo Crennel was part of an organization that won 3 Superbowls too.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Hater in the house I could not care less if he is overrated as long as he keeps doing what he has done the last 8 years or so.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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do i? like when i've said something of substance in every post in this thread thus far? do you have problems reading or did you just skip past all the words?



boy, 800 yards?!? you mean he averaged a whopping 50 yards per game? what a great running back.



what the hell are you talking about? he has 4 100 yard games in HIS CAREER. he's 4 for 30.



sure didn't seem to hold morris back. but maybe he played behind an entirely different line.



in week one last year against KC, you ran 5/11 times on your opening drive, finishing with a morris score. your next drive, in the 4th quarter, you ran 1/3 plays. your next posession, you ran 3/3 plays. on your final drive, you ran the ball 5/10 plays. giving a total of 14 runs out of 27 total plays. which means you actually ran the ball MORE often than you threw it.



pretty explosive catching the ball? based on what, exactly, his 4 total catches in the last year and three games? meanwhile faulk has had 40+ catches every season maroney's been in new england. and has been FAR better on third downs. but the 36 catch difference is just because mcdaniels hated maroney, right?


do you have ANY idea what you're talking about? this entire post was a series of either complete fabrications or outright lies.

I'm not really interested in getting into a pissing match with you. But to answer your questions..

Like I said that 800 yards was 4.5 yards per carry. That's pretty good. If he had more carries he'd be a 1200 yard back (assuming he could stay healthy of course, and that's my concern with him)

He actually has 6 100 yard games including playoffs which is what I'm talking about. Those 4 100 yard games came in 4 out of 5 games. You could have just asked me to clarify instead of throwing a tantrum. Maroney can't be expected to have many 100 yard games when they aren't giving him the ball. He was getting better and better in his second year but McDaniels didn't take advantage of it.

You say it didn't hold Morris back, but Maroney had more yards than Morris so I can't understand your argument there.

I'm not sure what your getting at with the KC game comment, but that's nice. The fact is Josh McDaniels frequently gives up on the running game in the second half. He even did it when Dillon and Maroney were there. Again, it boils down to what I've been saying, he produces well for the limited carries he's getting.

Again I'm not sure why you're comparing Maroney to Faulk there. Of course Faulk catches the ball more. He's the third down back. Maroney isn't. I'm not talking about statistics in this case. I'm talking about when they threw him the ball (which as you pointed out they did very little) he was very effective getting big yards out of it. An intelligent OC would see that and make that a part of his offense but McDaniels failed to do it.

And yes, I do know what I'm talking about. It's just clear that you're not interested in opinions that don't agree with yours and your response is to throw crap at anyone who says something you don't agree with.
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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I think you have to give him at least one season in KC before starting this thread.
Agreed, you havent even gotten through your draft yet. I think regardless of how you feel this was a big improvement over what you had, you won two games last year, you cant go anywhere but up, and who in your opinion would you have hired other then Pioli?
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Old 03-27-2009, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Agreed, you havent even gotten through your draft yet. I think regardless of how you feel this was a big improvement over what you had, you won two games last year, you cant go anywhere but up, and who in your opinion would you have hired other then Pioli?
I think most of you are failing to understand the point of his post (which, I didn't understand until I saw some of the hyperbole coming from people trying to disagree with him).

He's not saying, I don't think, that Pioli is unqualified or that he automatically thinks he'll do a bad job. He's saying that it's completely unfounded to assume that he'll turn the Chiefs around like he did with the Patriots. Which is absolutely true. One, becuase it's a completely different organization. Two, because he has much more personal responsibility over the operation of the team. Three, because, as was pointed out, his drafts the last 3-4 years have been pretty average.

To say that he needs a year before you can call him a failure is obvious. But it seems like far more people are willing to assume that he's going to succeed than logic and precendence would allow.
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Old 03-27-2009, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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I think most of you are failing to understand the point of his post (which, I didn't understand until I saw some of the hyperbole coming from people trying to disagree with him).

He's not saying, I don't think, that Pioli is unqualified or that he automatically thinks he'll do a bad job. He's saying that it's completely unfounded to assume that he'll turn the Chiefs around like he did with the Patriots. Which is absolutely true. One, becuase it's a completely different organization. Two, because he has much more personal responsibility over the operation of the team. Three, because, as was pointed out, his drafts the last 3-4 years have been pretty average.

To say that he needs a year before you can call him a failure is obvious. But it seems like far more people are willing to assume that he's going to succeed than logic and precendence would allow.
Right, I agree that its stupid to think the chiefs can just become a play off contender with one draft. I just didnt see the point of worrying yet, as the draft isnt even here yet.
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