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Old 03-27-2009, 12:08 PM    (permalink
LarryJohnson27
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I don't think all the hype is just about Pioli. I think it also has alot to do with the situation as there is already alot of young talent already in Kansas City. I know alot of fans (not just Chiefs fans) give Herm Edwards alot of ish but he got this franchise a very solid group of young guys to build around. I don 't know for sure if this team will be playoff caliber anytime soon, but I do know that if we do guys like Albert, Bowe, Dorsey, Flowers, Page, Carr, Charles, and Cottam will be a big part of the success.

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Old 03-27-2009, 12:10 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Jvig43 View Post
Right, I agree that its stupid to think the chiefs can just become a play off contender with one draft. I just didnt see the point of worrying yet, as the draft isnt even here yet.
Most Chiefs fans understand that this will take a few years and might not work out at all but there is reason for hope that we didn't have the last few years.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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With the way some of the other teams are going in the AFC West, the Chiefs might be the favorite to win it. They really don't lack talent, and one Pioli draft could do it when you take last year's rookies and their development as well as the players they've acquired in the off-season into account.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
I think most of you are failing to understand the point of his post (which, I didn't understand until I saw some of the hyperbole coming from people trying to disagree with him).

He's not saying, I don't think, that Pioli is unqualified or that he automatically thinks he'll do a bad job. He's saying that it's completely unfounded to assume that he'll turn the Chiefs around like he did with the Patriots. Which is absolutely true. One, becuase it's a completely different organization. Two, because he has much more personal responsibility over the operation of the team. Three, because, as was pointed out, his drafts the last 3-4 years have been pretty average.

To say that he needs a year before you can call him a failure is obvious. But it seems like far more people are willing to assume that he's going to succeed than logic and precendence would allow.
The point is understandable, and the question is fair.

Some of the "evidence" is incorrect. Specifically, claiming the last 3-4 years of drafting have been average is just wrong. One year out of 3 has the potential to be (and arguably already is) an epic fail.

2008 = DROY and the next 3 picks landed on IR
2007 = Merriweather (trades for Welker & Moss)
2006 = Epic Fail
2005 = 4 solid starters & Cassel (imo 5 starters)
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by nepg View Post
With the way some of the other teams are going in the AFC West, the Chiefs might be the favorite to win it. They really don't lack talent, and one Pioli draft could do it when you take last year's rookies and their development as well as the players they've acquired in the off-season into account.
This is why threads like this get started slow down this will take time our D is a mess it is going to take more then one off season to fix it.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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The D isn't that bad. It lacked a pass rusher and a middle linebacker. The offense was more at-fault, and that aspect of the team has been addressed (and they're still working on it).
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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The D isn't that bad. It lacked a pass rusher and a middle linebacker. The offense was more at-fault, and that aspect of the team has been addressed (and they're still working on it).
You have got to be joking.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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I want Pioli to swap 1sts with the Vikings to get Jared Allen back and give them Tyler Thigpen! And give them a 4th!

ahh man I miss JA :(
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Splat420 View Post
You have got to be joking.
The offense couldn't convert 3rd down and played like ass in the 2nd and 4th quarters. This is both after they switched to the high school offense to accomodate Thigpen's inadequacies... Prior to that, the offense played like garbage every down of every quarter in every situation.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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The point is understandable, and the question is fair.

Some of the "evidence" is incorrect. Specifically, claiming the last 3-4 years of drafting have been average is just wrong. One year out of 3 has the potential to be (and arguably already is) an epic fail.

2008 = DROY and the next 3 picks landed on IR
2007 = Merriweather (trades for Welker & Moss)
2006 = Epic Fail
2005 = 4 solid starters & Cassel (imo 5 starters)
How many great players has Pioli drafted in the last 4 years? I don't think you can say any so far.
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Old 03-27-2009, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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The offense couldn't convert 3rd down and played like ass in the 2nd and 4th quarters. This is both after they switched to the high school offense to accomodate Thigpen's inadequacies... Prior to that, the offense played like garbage every down of every quarter in every situation.
The D played like garbage every down every quarter all season.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Everything last year sucked about KC except Tony G, Albert and Brandon Flowers.
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Everything last year sucked about KC except Tony G, Albert and Brandon Flowers.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Bowe had a case of the drops early in the season.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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If the 3-4 defense wasn't installed, Pioli would have a much harder time scouting players for his scheme. The Chiefs should have and probably did know that he was going to do that. I think Dorsey is a decent fit, but Hali probably has to go in the next couple of years. Brandon Flowers is an excellent fit - I wanted New England to draft him last year. If their 3-4 is like New England's, they'll usually be playing zone coverage. Besides, did the Chiefs show you anything on defense last year in a 4-3?

The difference between Matt Cassel and Tyler Thigpen is enormous. One of them ended up at Coastal Carolina, the other was a highly-recruited prospect who happened to walk into a situation where two top-ten picks with Heisman trophies were ahead of him on the depth chart. Thigpen blew games in the fourth quarter last year, and Cassel looked like a Pro Bowler over the last couple months. Vrabel is mostly there for leadership reasons. The Chiefs are one of the youngest teams in the league and don't have much veteran presence.

Like you said, Bobby Engram and Mike Goff are both decent starters. Brian Waters is not even close to being the best left guard in the league. That's Steve Hutchinson by a mile.

2005: I think we agree on this. Mankins, Hobbs, Kaczur, Sanders, and Cassel were starters last year. 5/7 starters is outstanding, especially considering they didn't have a second round pick. The only two players they "missed" on were #170 overall and Mr. Irrelevant.

2006: I'll agree this wasn't an excellent draft. Maroney is probably still the starter at running back, although the team is wisely keeping the committee approach. He's 24 years old, for crying out loud. When you add playoff games, his first two seasons:

2006 - 17 games, 206 carries, 832 yards, 6 touchdowns
2007 - 16 games, 246 carries, 1,115 yards, 9 touchdowns

Last year he was injured, playing in only three games. Stephen Gostkowski is a Pro Bowler, and O'Callaghan and LeKevin Smith are on roster. I'll agree this is their weakest recent draft, but I wouldn't call Maroney a bust.

2007: Brandon Meriweather was outstanding last year. He was easily the biggest playmaker in the secondary. Richardson is another player I like and is still on the roster. Again, like you said, they picked up Moss and Welker in this draft and went 16-0 the next year. Everyone else they picked (who were picked in rounds 6 and 7, mostly) was a long shot to make the roster because the team was loaded across the board going into the draft.

2008: Jerod Mayo is the defensive rookie of the year. Terrence Wehatley and Jonatahn Whilhite both looked good last season too, but Wheatley broke his wrist deflecting a pass in the Colts game (his first start.) Crable was on I.R. this year. Kevin O'Connell has talent but was behind Brady and Cassel.

Not including Moss, Welker, and Cassel, 8 of New England's draft picks the past four years will likely go into this season as starters. The team has drafted pretty much every starter they have - QB, RB, TE, OL, DL, 3/4 LBs, 1 CB, S - under Belichick/Pioli and I'd say they've assembled a pretty good team.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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I didnt even have to type his name. if he didn't have the dropsies against NE KC would have beat NE and then that could have changed the whole season.
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Bowe had a case of the drops early in the season.
O ya well Derrick Johnson had the case of the missed tackles all season.:)
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Everybody who takes a promotion in the NFL is overrated by the people who hired him until he actually proves he is competent. Coming from NE is no guarantee but I'd hire him over a Meyhew who learned his job from Matt Millen and has a blank resume to judge him on. That being said, Pioli like any new hire will have to prove he can do the job.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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I guess we will find out if Bill Belichick or Scott Pioli was really the mastermind behind the Patriots success.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:53 PM    (permalink
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O ya well Derrick Johnson had the case of the missed tackles all season.:)
No he didn't! Don't make this personal Splat!
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by vidae-KC View Post
No he didn't! Don't make this personal Splat!
what about the 3 ints that he dropped.
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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Originally Posted by Hermstheman83 View Post
What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
How many great players has Pioli drafted in the last 4 years? I don't think you can say any so far.
A thoroughly subjective topic. But I'll play along - Mayo, Mankins, Gostkowski and Hobbs (great return man & decent CB)

How many other teams can you say have drafted xxxx number of great players over the last 4 years? Since when is 4 years enough to guage a player's "greatness"?

Also, NE has a track record of slowly working guys into the rotation. So it can be argued that a team like the Patriots, who have excellent depth historically, require longer periods of time before we can truly assess how good a player is b/c they may not play as much as they would with another team.

And again, why are we dismissing the 2000-2004 drafts? Why don't those count?
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FlyingElvis View Post
A thoroughly subjective topic. But I'll play along - Mayo, Mankins, Gostkowski and Hobbs (great return man & decent CB)

How many other teams can you say have drafted xxxx number of great players over the last 4 years? Since when is 4 years enough to guage a player's "greatness"?

Also, NE has a track record of slowly working guys into the rotation. So it can be argued that a team like the Patriots, who have excellent depth historically, require longer periods of time before we can truly assess how good a player is b/c they may not play as much as they would with another team.

And again, why are we dismissing the 2000-2004 drafts? Why don't those count?

what have you done for me lately? maybe? I dunno. they got Wes and Randy recently. So that with Hobbs, Mankins, Mayo and Gos is pretty solid. People dont relaize that not much turnover has happened for the Pat on their roster in the past 4 years besides getting rid of old farts and Asante...so killing it draft wise is not needed per se. and thats comming from the number one hater on the board. :D
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<+BOE> Scott, with Burfict's character concerns (whether legit or not) you think Pioli would draft him. :D
<+ScottWright> Why not. Baldwin does need a sparring partner...
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What's with the hate on Ricky Stanzi? Those youtube clips of him with the hulk hogan theme music instantly make him better than Luck.
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:01 PM    (permalink
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he WAS impressive in the playoffs that year. i distinctly remember watching him thinking, 'where the heck did this guy come from?'

but then he was abysmal vs. the giants. and he was abysmal before the playoffs. which makes me feel like the playoffs were the aberration. that said, if he comes out this season and runs really well (by which i mean, isn't getting outperformed by nearly every other rb on the roster), i have no problem eating crow. but when green-ellis looks like a better runner...
Those 2 games are indicative of what he can become, no doubt. That is exactly why I think he hasn’t been able to play enough to consistently reach his potential. Which is why I say he doesn’t suck. In his second season he did a decent job in a RBBC system and blew up in the playoffs. Then played 3 games in 08.

The Giants D-line put up one of the greatest performances I have even seen in any game, let alone a superbowl. NE’s O-line got shredded. Sweetness would have looked bad in that game.

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i disagree with the ypc argument because it's baseless. it's like saying "well, david carr had an X rating, so he can't suck." without the background data, it's, well, just white noise. for instance:

maroney has typically become progressively worse over the course of the game (his 4.7 ypc on his first ten carries of the game as compared to 3.2 ypc after twenty). he's horrible inside the red zone (2.9 ypc). he's substantially worse in the 4th quarter than in the first quarter (4.6 ypc to 3.8 ypc).

without seeing him play (and seeing that defenses tend to wear him down), none of that would be relevant information in and of itself.

that said, all of those 10 yard runs further skew the stats (at least in the context of this thread), as a 10 yard carry is hardly a "home run". and they make his rushing ability look down right awful in some games (if we play the, 'take away the one big run and you're left with 2.0 ypc for the day' game).
I understand that stats can be used and misused. For example: 4th Q ypc and his 20th + carries . . . have you considered the status of all of those games? NE was blowing teams out and presumably running out the clock with those late game carries. That situation is much easier to defend. Same goes (sort of) for the red zone, where the D is packed into a short field and can expose a run game that is based more on play-action/screen/draw than true smash mouth, thus exposing an O line geared towards pass protection. It is relatively subjective – you say Maroney wore down, I say the D had less passing to worry about. It’s not like there’s any empirical evidence to say which is correct.

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fine, to be fair. if he'd had the full 3 years of play, i might be of a different opinion. but pretty much from his rookie season on, he's done nothing to make me think he's better than mediocre.
He’s a better than mediocre talent (i.e. “potential”) who has not proven he’s anything better than mediocre. That I can agree with at this point. But, unless you think mediocre = suck . . .
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Old 03-27-2009, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Anyway . . . I'm torn w/Pioli. I have a ton of respect for him and want to see him continue to succeed.

On the other hand, maybe if he & McDaniels both flop over the next few seasons the rest of the NFL will stay the **** out of Bob Kraft's cupboards. Find some other teams coaches, players & FO staffers to poach for a change.
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