San Francisco 49ers Discussion - Page 422

abaddon41_80 · 12-12-2011, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatrickWillis

3) Joe Staley gets abused quite often. Not sure how you could say he's our best lineman. Best lineman don't get beat as often as staley does. The one thing he is good at is moving in space on the toss sweeps. His inline blocking is poor, and he gets eaten alive in pass protection. Davis is not a good pass protector at all but he can run block with the best of them. Hence why I'd be fine keeping him at RT and finding a replacement for Staley.

Are we talking about the same Staley here? Staley is a top 12 pass-blocking LT and has only given up a few sacks and a handful of pressures all year. His run-blocking is also better than Davis'.

binary · 12-12-2011, 03:42 PM

Abbadon, I think Crabtree can be a #1 guy, he's improved a lot over the last rtwo yeas...actually just over the last handful of games, there's not reason to think he can't keep it up. He'll never be an athletic beast or be incredibly explosive, but now that he runs better routes and is healthy, his suddenness and change-of-direction is killing people. He's also a lot stronger than most think.

He used to have really questionable hands, run sloppy routes, and just had a problem with balance overall - he's remedied most of those concerns. He'll still drop a key pass here and there, but he's not nearly as bad as the others on the team. I think what we're seeing is the result of him being healthy and building some chemistry with Alex. Harbaugh is recognizing what Crabtree is good at and utilizing him in those areas, that's the key. Finally, he's in a good system for once. Now if we had another threat on the opposite side, who knows how good he could be.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Are we talking about the same Staley here? Staley is a top 12 pass-blocking LT and has only given up a few sacks and a handful of pressures all year. His run-blocking is also better than Davis'.

I'm not sure I can take your opinion seriously since you're the same guy who said Alex Smith was our best offensive player yesterday. But I will bite.

Staley does not run block. He is good in space on toss sweeps. He does not move anyone back. Saying that he is a better run blocker than Davis really hurts your credibility (again). I'd also like to see some stats on how Staley is a top 12 pass blocking LT, when it seems he lets a someone free almost every game.

abaddon41_80 · 12-12-2011, 03:46 PM

I don't disagree that Crabtree has improved but I just don't see him getting better anymore. He was supposed to be an elite receiver but he is pretty much just a solid blocker that can create separation with decent routes on intermediate pass plays. He and Josh Morgan are basically the same player, imo.

I would love for Crabtree to prove me wrong but until he can go two games without dropping a pass or not finding the ball in the air or just running the wrong route I can't support him as our #1 receiver.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binary

Abbadon, I think Crabtree can be a #1 guy, he's improved a lot over the last rtwo yeas...actually just over the last handful of games, there's not reason to think he can't keep it up. He'll never be an athletic beast or be incredibly explosive, but now that he runs better routes and is healthy, his suddenness and change-of-direction is killing people. He's also a lot stronger than most think.

He used to have really questionable hands, run sloppy routes, and just had a problem with balance overall - he's remedied most of those concerns. He'll still drop a key pass here and there, but he's not nearly as bad as the others on the team. I think what we're seeing is the result of him being healthy and building some chemistry with Alex. Harbaugh is recognizing what Crabtree is good at and utilizing him in those areas, that's the key. Finally, he's in a good system for once. Now if we had another threat on the opposite side, who knows how good he could be.

He ran questionable routes last year......Baloney.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

I don't disagree that Crabtree has improved but I just don't see him getting better anymore. He was supposed to be an elite receiver but he is pretty much just a solid blocker that can create separation with decent routes on intermediate pass plays. He and Josh Morgan are basically the same player, imo.

I would love for Crabtree to prove me wrong but until he can go two games without dropping a pass or not finding the ball in the air or just running the wrong route I can't support him as our #1 receiver.

How do you know he runs the wrong route? WTF? Evidence please.

And laughable you would say Morgan is even close to the talent Crabtree is. Morgan is a tick faster. Thats it.

abaddon41_80 · 12-12-2011, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatrickWillis

I'm not sure I can take your opinion seriously since you're the same guy who said Alex Smith was our best offensive player yesterday. But I will bite.

Staley does not run block. He is good in space on toss sweeps. He does not move anyone back. Saying that he is a better run blocker than Davis really hurts your credibility (again). I'd also like to see some stats on how Staley is a top 12 pass blocking LT, when it seems he lets a someone free almost every game.

Can you give five examples of sacks Staley has given up this year? You probably can't even give 10 examples of pressures he has given up. He has made a few big mistakes this season and those have completely overshadowed his otherwise very good play.

abaddon41_80 · 12-12-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PatrickWillis

How do you know he runs the wrong route? WTF? Evidence please.

And laughable you would say Morgan is even close to the talent Crabtree is. Morgan is a tick faster. Thats it.

I didn't say that Morgan is close in talent to Crabtree. I said that right now they are basically the same player

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Can you give five examples of sacks Staley has given up this year? You probably can't even give 10 examples of pressures he has given up. He has made a few big mistakes this season and those have completely overshadowed his otherwise very good play.

Yeah I will give you those examples right after you show me evidence that Crabtree runs the wrong routes...Especially since Harbaugh has said Crabtree has been "100%" on his assignments.

binary · 12-12-2011, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

I don't disagree that Crabtree has improved but I just don't see him getting better anymore. He was supposed to be an elite receiver but he is pretty much just a solid blocker that can create separation with decent routes on intermediate pass plays. He and Josh Morgan are basically the same player, imo.

I would love for Crabtree to prove me wrong but until he can go two games without dropping a pass or not finding the ball in the air or just running the wrong route I can't support him as our #1 receiver.

Well, look at how much he's improved over the last couple games, he'll never be a deep threat, but what they ask him to do he does very well. He's not slipping on routes anymore, I think that's a result of him being healthy for once. Morgan is probably deadlier on slants because he's so thick and strong, but Crabtree can get pretty good separation on those. He's never gonna be a great deep threat, but that's not needed to be a #1 guy IMO.

abaddon41_80 · 12-12-2011, 03:52 PM

Okay. Forget the comment about the wrong routes. Still doesn't excuse the drops and times he failed to find the ball in the air.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binary

Well, look at how much he's improved over the last couple games, he'll never be a deep threat, but what they ask him to do he does very well. He's not slipping on routes anymore, I think that's a result of him being healthy for once. Morgan is probably deadlier on slants because he's so thick and strong, but Crabtree can get pretty good separation on those. He's never gonna be a great deep threat, but that's not needed to be a #1 guy IMO.

Deep threat does not mean speed. It means separation deep. And if you had watched the Browns game you would have noticed Crabtree burning their corners deep the whole game.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Okay. Forget the comment about the wrong routes. Still doesn't excuse the drops and times he failed to find the ball in the air.

?????? I'm asking for the evidence. You failed to bring it up once again.

And failed to find the ball in the air......LOL. I'm about done. It's okay for Alex to routinely overthrow him but if Crabtree misses a ball in the air....Oh boy. Not good at all. #2 receiver, not a #1. Alex is great though. Jesus......

binary · 12-12-2011, 03:54 PM

Morgan is stronger, has better leaping ability, is faster, has had more consistent hands than Crabtree up to this point. Crabtree is more of a natural though, better change-of-direction, more sudden, better moves after the catch.

abaddon41_80 · 12-12-2011, 03:57 PM

Him running the wrong route is almost impossible to prove, which is why I will give that up. Sometimes he will be one place and Smith throws it somewhere else. Was that Smith throwing to the wrong spot or Crabtree not running the right route? How are we supposed to know? Smith doesn't routinely overthrow him, either. Crabtree has dropped more passes than Smith has overthrown his way this year.

And just yesterday on a deep pass he failed to find the ball and get under it, even though he had a great chance to. #1 receivers make plays for their QB, they go up into coverage and bring the ball down. Crabtree has yet to do that.

And Alex Smith isn't great, but to act like he is our biggest problem is either trolling or lack of knowledge.

binary · 12-12-2011, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Okay. Forget the comment about the wrong routes. Still doesn't excuse the drops and times he failed to find the ball in the air.

In the Chiefs game last year, he slipped on a timing route that ended up getting intercepted. It was a bad throw, but without the slip he's definitely in a better position to make the play. Against Seattle, the announcer pointed out that he was supposed to sit in a zone and he didn't, and that led to an INT...Singletary of course failed to ever answer the question, but it appears there was miscommunication there. The drops are just too numerous to name up until this year, and they've been expounded upon quite enough. The point is, this year he's improved...he's right on the fringe of being really good imo.

binary · 12-12-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

And just yesterday on a deep pass he failed to find the ball and get under it, even though he had a great chance to. #1 receivers make plays for their QB, they go up into coverage and bring the ball down. Crabtree has yet to do that.

Yeah that's the one thing that's missing to me. Like that great throw in the Giants game in the endzone, #1 WRs make those plays. That was a bummer. I think he'll get there though. It's everyone's first year in this system.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaddon41_80

Him running the wrong route is almost impossible to prove, which is why I will give that up. Sometimes he will be one place and Smith throws it somewhere else. Was that Smith throwing to the wrong spot or Crabtree not running the right route? How are we supposed to know? Smith doesn't routinely overthrow him, either. Crabtree has dropped more passes than Smith has overthrown his way this year.

And just yesterday on a deep pass he failed to find the ball and get under it, even though he had a great chance to. #1 receivers make plays for their QB, they go up into coverage and bring the ball down. Crabtree has yet to do that.

And Alex Smith isn't great, but to act like he is our biggest problem is either trolling or lack of knowledge.

Quote:

Him running the wrong route is almost impossible to prove, which is why I will give that up.

Which is why you shouldn't have brought it up in the 1st place, as it shows your bias.

Quote:

Sometimes he will be one place and Smith throws it somewhere else. Was that Smith throwing to the wrong spot or Crabtree not running the right route?

Example please.

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Smith doesn't routinely overthrow him, either. Crabtree has dropped more passes than Smith has overthrown his way this year.

Flat out false. I'm working on a video as we speak as I have all the games on file. He has overthrown or underthrown Crabtree at least 11 times by my count. And I'm only at the Browns game thus far.

Quote:

And just yesterday on a deep pass he failed to find the ball and get under it, even though he had a great chance to. #1 receivers make plays for their QB, they go up into coverage and bring the ball down. Crabtree has yet to do that.

Yes I remember this play. Crabtree had a slight step on Peterson and was getting held a bit, but yes, that's one where you gotta come down with it. Then again, you seem to not remember the grab he made in Detroit where Smith overthrew him by about 5 yards and Crabtree made an insane catch leaping over the middle to haul it in. To say he hasn't done it before, is once again, false.

There were also 2 plays in yesterday's game where Crabtree was open and Smith misfired. One was against cover 2 where Crabtree was open deep to the far sideline and Smith horribly underthrew it. There was anoher one where Crab had a step on Peterson and it was overthrown slightly by about 4 -5 yards.

Quote:

And Alex Smith isn't great, but to act like he is our biggest problem is either trolling or lack of knowledge.

No it's not trolling. And it's certainly not lack of knowledge. he has a slow release. He rarely throws the backshoulder and when he does it's not thrown accurately. He NEVER, and I repeat, NEVER throws the ball before a receiver's break to create maximum separation. His pocket presence is awful at times. Some games, he avoids the rush well. The giants game comes to mind. Then there's games like the Ravens and this last one where he cause at least half of the sacks by running into them. I have said before that we need a better line but it also goes hand in hand. Quarterback is the most important position in football, and we are dealing with someone who is limited. A stud would help this offense in a big way.

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binary

Morgan is stronger, has better leaping ability, is faster, has had more consistent hands than Crabtree up to this point. Crabtree is more of a natural though, better change-of-direction, more sudden, better moves after the catch.

Morgan is not stronger. And not a better leaper. Remember the TD against the bengals that got taken away? You HONESTLY think Morgan can jump like that? C'mon.

edgrenade · 12-12-2011, 04:17 PM

You put Crabtree on the Patriots, and he would be putting up Welker numbers every year

PatrickWillis · 12-12-2011, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edgrenade

You put Crabtree on the Patriots, and he would be putting up Welker numbers every year

Very true, whether you're being sarcastic or not.

JordanTaber · 12-12-2011, 05:11 PM

LOL @ thinking Alex Smith is NOT the biggest problem with the 49ers.

They entered yesterday's game with the #1 defense in football, the #7 running game in football...and the #29 passing game.

Nope, the biggest problem on the team is...um....CHILO RACHAL!!! Yeah, that's it! The right guard is the biggest problem, not the frickin QUARTERBACK.

Get Alex Smith two HOF WRs, a HOF TE, two HOF RBs, a Pro Bowl FB, and 5 Pro Bowl offensive linemen, and he can be successful! By that, I mean he could maybe throw for 3400 yards and 24 TDs in the easiest passing era in NFL history...an era where 3 quarterbacks are all on track to break Marino's all-time single season passing yardage record in the same season.

Poor Alex. He doesn't have mega-ultra-super-studs like Marshall Newhouse, T.J. Lang, Scott Wells, Evan Dietrich-Smith, and Bryan Bulaga protecting him. He doesn't have James Jones and Jordy Nelson carrying him with their sheer epic, elite talent.

Michael Crabtree, Braylon Edwards, Kyle Williams, Antonio Bryant, Brandon Lloyd, Vernon Davis, Delanie Walker...they all suck. It's everyone else's fault. Don't blame Alex.

49erNation85 · 12-12-2011, 09:22 PM

Lamo at trying to defend Alex Smith. He would be able to produce numbers in our offense if he had Rodgers or even Mannings arm. He has the accuracy part just can't go deep enough in games from what I have seen. We need play to CK and really see what hes got with our number one group we already lost the bye week/home field. Play Smith against the Steelers then set him the rest of the season. Just wish we would have taken a chance on Mallett instead of CK. Any round after the 2nd or even the 2nd round no trades would have been a steal.And I'm sure Jim could keep him in line.

binary · 12-12-2011, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49erNation85

Lamo at trying to defend Alex Smith. He would be able to produce numbers in our offense if he had Rodgers or even Mannings arm. He has the accuracy part just can't go deep enough in games from what I have seen. We need play to CK and really see what hes got with our number one group we already lost the bye week/home field. Play Smith against the Steelers then set him the rest of the season. Just wish we would have taken a chance on Mallett instead of CK. Any round after the 2nd or even the 2nd round no trades would have been a steal.And I'm sure Jim could keep him in line.

lol.

Anyways, if we can pull off this win on MNF, I think all will be well. Let's hope niner fans don't sell their tickets. This is a huge game and a great test, hugest game in freaking years, and we've had a couple this year (what an awesome season). I'm actually kind of optimistic, I think they can pull this one off. The OL plays way better at home, if they can protect like the Giants game, I think the niners win.

Ness · 12-13-2011, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 49erNation85

Lamo at trying to defend Alex Smith. He would be able to produce numbers in our offense if he had Rodgers or even Mannings arm. He has the accuracy part just can't go deep enough in games from what I have seen. We need play to CK and really see what hes got with our number one group we already lost the bye week/home field. Play Smith against the Steelers then set him the rest of the season. Just wish we would have taken a chance on Mallett instead of CK. Any round after the 2nd or even the 2nd round no trades would have been a steal.And I'm sure Jim could keep him in line.

The 49ers didn't lose the bye week. And they'll have a home playoff game regardless if they did lose it. What are you talking about?