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Old 02-24-2012, 09:05 PM    (permalink
Menardo75
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Originally Posted by dan77733 View Post
I never said a true number one. I said that Johnson would be OUR number one receiver and since he's better than Crabtree and bigger playmaker, I would say thats accurate. Garcon is good but he's not a playmaker. Only time he was a playmaker was when he had Manning, etc. and no one knew who he was. He's not the deep threat we need. He's more of a possession receiver than a deep guy and we already have the possession receiver in Crabtree. No reason to add another Crabtree. As for stats, I do care about stats because stats tell you if the player has improved/declined and is consistent. Wallace is consistent and will get better as he gets older. Carlos Rogers and those older receivers arent going to get better. They are what they are and thats it.



If we go into 2012 with an average WR core, we aint doing crap and will be nowhere near matching 13-3. Talent can be found in other rounds but the difference is that with the draft, its 50/50 where as signing a free agent, you already know what you're getting. Drafting a rookie receiver isnt going to help us whatsoever in 2012.

The method is the fact that the 49ers are cheap, plain and simple and when they do spend money, its on the wrong player or an old guy who they just want to keep intact with the rest of the core. And im not looking to go nuts in free agency, I just want one guy and the one guy I want is the one guy we need the most at the position we need the most who gives us what we need the most at that position. As for that two year window, next year will be used to re-sign our UFA's in 2014 which means that we wont be going after anyone next year which is why this year is the year we need to go after a number one playmaking speed receiver on the outside.
Dan don't kid yourself you always want the 49ers to go nuts in free agency.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:05 PM    (permalink
Borat
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Seriously, is a playmaking WR too much to ask for?
No, it's not too much to ask. I'm pretty sure most everyone here has picked out their top WR target and they are all playmakers that represent a HUGE upgrade. Not sure why you always play the "me vs. the world" card. Many of us share your sentiments. We all know that WR needs to be addressed. I think most of us are just less interested in trading a top draft pick + giving out a huge contract to a guy that isn't a complete player at his position.

This is pretty ironic as it has been you that has been the biggest detractor to the "trade for a player and then also give him a huge contract as well" philosophy when it has been brought up in the past.

This year is so much different than years past. There just hasn't been this kind of outstanding WR talent available. It just seems silly to trade a 1st round pick and then hand out a huge contract to a guy when they can sign a more complete WR, and is some cases, a better WR, and use that 1st rounder to add more talent in a different area of need. Considering you seem to be overly concerned with our future cap health, the thought of trading away an asset as valuable as a first round pick for a WR when there are many others of equal or better value out there that don't cost any picks seems to be in direct opposition of that fear.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:19 PM    (permalink
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Uhhh, Dan, the cap is going up $30 ******* million dollars next year. I doubt the team is one bit concerned about having enough money to address any of the issues you have brought up in regards to signing/re-signing talent.

Maybe you don't know this, but the 49ers cap guy/contract wizard Parag Marathe is like the Greek God of contracts. He navigates the salary cap like Shy Love navigates a greased-up meatpole.

I have ZERO fear of signing any FA to any contract the team deems necessary. We're annually one of the teams with the most salary cap space for a reason. And no, it's not because they are "cheap." That crap was rebuffed years ago. It's Parag's brillance that will keep the 49ers' window open a hell of a lot longer than 2 years.
Not to mention just looking from the football side of things, our FO has a set price on a guy and isn't willing to budge. Add in a coaching staff that can get the best out of its players and we won't need to break the bank. Aso or Joseph signing for $100 million combined? Nah, we got Carlos Rogers at $4 million outplaying both. That's going to keep our window open for a while.

I fully expect the same to happen this year...miss out on Bowe, Jackson, who make big money elsewhere. We'll sign a 2nd tier guy, coach him up, and next offseason he will be viewed as a steal. Thats the confidence level i have in this team right now, after they hit it out of the park last FA.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else like Vincent Jackson?
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:09 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else like Vincent Jackson?
I love it he would be a perfect fit.
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I dunno even half of those guys why did we sign them jeez.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:46 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else like Vincent Jackson?
I do but I would have a hard time giving in to his asking price:

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Per beat writer Kevin Acee, the Chargers are "believed" to be willing to pay V-Jax a deal worth $11-12 million annually over five years. In terms of NFL receiver deals, such an agreement would put Jackson ahead of Brandon Marshall ($9.46M), Santonio Holmes ($9.05M), and Andre Johnson ($8.96M annually). He'd be behind only Larry Fitzgerald ($16M), although Calvin Johnson will soon be competing with Fitz.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Dan don't kid yourself you always want the 49ers to go nuts in free agency.
Yeah, I do but not this year because unlike past years, this time they were actually a playoff team. This off-season, if we can get Wallace (or even another top tier WR), DB Jason Allen and re-sign the majority of our free agents, I'll be a happy camper.

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No, it's not too much to ask. I'm pretty sure most everyone here has picked out their top WR target and they are all playmakers that represent a HUGE upgrade. Not sure why you always play the "me vs. the world" card. Many of us share your sentiments. We all know that WR needs to be addressed. I think most of us are just less interested in trading a top draft pick + giving out a huge contract to a guy that isn't a complete player at his position.

This is pretty ironic as it has been you that has been the biggest detractor to the "trade for a player and then also give him a huge contract as well" philosophy when it has been brought up in the past.

This year is so much different than years past. There just hasn't been this kind of outstanding WR talent available. It just seems silly to trade a 1st round pick and then hand out a huge contract to a guy when they can sign a more complete WR, and is some cases, a better WR, and use that 1st rounder to add more talent in a different area of need. Considering you seem to be overly concerned with our future cap health, the thought of trading away an asset as valuable as a first round pick for a WR when there are many others of equal or better value out there that don't cost any picks seems to be in direct opposition of that fear.
Okay, we all prefer our own top tier WR but let's be honest, none of the FA WR's are complete. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm not a fan of giving up a first rounder and a huge contract but thats when its a top ten draft pick and for a veteran that we dont need or a franchised player. Wallace is an RFA and if he doesnt get franchised, he's worth the 30th overall draft pick and a five year deal worth $8-10m per year because he's young, has a lot of upside, potential and unlike the older FA WR's, will most likely be able to play out his five year deal while improving along the way. Quite simply, he'll make a far greater impact than any WR will do drafted at 30 especially since that receiver will have to work his way up to a starting spot. Trading away the 30th overall draft pick and a giving Wallace a five year deal, he easily becomes the number one WR on the depth chart.

Look at the teams that won a SB for the last decade. Majority of the teams had good receivers which helped them win and let's be honest, we're not going to win a SB with the receivers that we have now. We have the possession receiver in Crabtree, the slot receiver in Williams and the playmaking TE in Davis but the element that we're missing is that speed receiver on the outside that can spread out the defense. Wallace fits that element perfectly. Some here say that we need that big red zone target and I dont care what the excuses are, management tried that with Edwards and it was disaster to say the least. A speed receiver on the outside like Wallace is far more valuable than Bowe, Colston and V. Jackson would be plus unlike them, he's at least two years younger. Quite simply, I would be more confident in Wallace's playmaking ability than those three.

You talk about there being a lot of FA WR's that are going to be available but let's be realistic, majority of them arent going anywhere. DeSean Jackson, Bowe, Vincent Jackson are expected to get franchised. Steve Johnson is a possibility as is Colston but Brees and Nicks come before Colston. The other FA WR's are either old (Lloyd, Welker and Wayne), not what we need and arent worth a long term contract. Others like Manningham, Meachem, Robinson and Garcon are solid but they're basically Crabtree part two. To me, signing them wont make a difference. A rookie WR may be great in a few years but how does that help us this year and next year? Answer, it doesnt. Wallace may be the only WR that we can even go after when FA starts and yeah, his price may go higher and I'll admit that I would max out at $10m a year because I believe that he's worth at least that and if in two or three years, the team could always give him an extension and more money.

And im not fearful of the cap room or anything like that but I know that next off-season will be when management will try to re-sign their own FA's and their FA's for 2014. Adding that to the fact that our schedule is tougher, our division will be improved -

(and quite honestly, my main fear are the Cardinals signing Manning and possibly Garcon/Wayne or both because with that very good defense, special teams and running game, we'll need offense to match and granted, its all 50/50 on Manning but we'll know by March 8th if he's still a Colt or not and by March 17th, if he'll be a Cardinal and if that happens, im sorry but no average WR or rookie is going to help us enough and with us going 13-3, no team is going to underestimate us like they did this year which means that we have to improve the team as opposed to staying as is and Baalke himself said that he's always looking to improve the team and fine, he has a budget for every player but if he spends say $7m or so on Rogers who's going to be 31 and Wallace goes to a team for $3m more or less than Rogers gets, yeah, im going to be pissed especially if we still dont have a number one WR. Add in the money that would go towards Morgan and there's your $10m for Wallace. But hey, everyone here looks at it their own way) -

I just think that this off-season will be where we can sign at least one top tier FA and it wont hurt us cap room wise while at the same time, improving the team on offense where the help is especially needed.

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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87 View Post
Not to mention just looking from the football side of things, our FO has a set price on a guy and isn't willing to budge. Add in a coaching staff that can get the best out of its players and we won't need to break the bank. Aso or Joseph signing for $100 million combined? Nah, we got Carlos Rogers at $4 million outplaying both. That's going to keep our window open for a while.

I fully expect the same to happen this year...miss out on Bowe, Jackson, who make big money elsewhere. We'll sign a 2nd tier guy, coach him up, and next offseason he will be viewed as a steal. Thats the confidence level i have in this team right now, after they hit it out of the park last FA.
Rogers did good but not great and he's not worth what he's going to be asking for especially at his age. Asomugha is better than Rogers but when you take the NFL's best cover corner and have play some zone crap, yeah, I think he wont do as good. Joseph played very well for HOU and was one of the many reasons why their defense had such a huge turn around.

Honestly, im sick and tired of hearing about the great signings that we had last summer because if we went 3-13, it would be the opposite. Just because the team got lucky after a lockout (mind you) that it will happen again because I doubt that it will. The funny thing is that if the team does the same thing and doesnt repeat as division champions or get in the playoffs in 2012, then we'll all be saying that the team needs to sign a few top tier FA's next off-season especially with the cap going to be around $150m. What then? See, thats what I hate the most. Instead of being aggressive, we do the opposite and people wonder why we've sucked for nine years and what one of the reasons were as to why we lost to the Giants. No playmaking WR that can spread out the defense and consertative playcalling. I hate that crap. I rather be aggressive, take chances and get burned than not taking the chances to begin with.

Another thing, Rogers and Goldson signed one year deals and played great but every player does that in a contract year to increase their value. Rare do you ever see a player who's about to become an UFA not do that. Just tired of hearing about those great signings last summer because if we dont win that Eagles game, chances are we go 8-8 at best if that and then everyone here would be saying the opposite of what they're saying now.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by hawkeye123 View Post
Anyone else like Vincent Jackson?
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Originally Posted by Menardo75 View Post
I love it he would be a perfect fit.
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Originally Posted by WhatWouldBillyBajemaDo? View Post
I do but I would have a hard time giving in to his asking price:

Per beat writer Kevin Acee, the Chargers are "believed" to be willing to pay V-Jax a deal worth $11-12 million annually over five years. In terms of NFL receiver deals, such an agreement would put Jackson ahead of Brandon Marshall ($9.46M), Santonio Holmes ($9.05M), and Andre Johnson ($8.96M annually). He'd be behind only Larry Fitzgerald ($16M), although Calvin Johnson will soon be competing with Fitz.
Wouldnt mind Vincent Jackson but he's not worth that and im sorry, this is what pisses me off. People thinking that a 29 year old WR who's one screw up away from a season long suspension is worth that amount of money. Sorry but anyone who thinks that he's worth $10m or more a year for five years and Wallace isnt is a whopping moron plain and simple.
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Old 02-25-2012, 04:56 AM    (permalink
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Dan, why are you tired of hearing about how great our signings were last year? Truth hurt? Because those signings help get us to 13-3. Without those signings, your singing a completely different tune this off-season. You can't use hindsight and say well if we would have been 3-13, no one would be saying anything. Your damn right, we wouldnt because OBVIOUSLY that would have meant those signings didnt work out. Thats like saying your weatherman got lucky because he accurately predicted it would be clear and sunny. He's paid to predict the weather accurately....so he should be right, more often than not. Most people tend to have more faith in guy who goes out and makes the right the decisions, not write him off as a product of luck. So you basically believe that the Niners "got lucky", not that ppl like Baalke and Jimbaugh put in the effort and the work to make this team 13-3. Kinda explains your 'Wallace or bust' attitude towards free agency.

And where you get this notion that Garcon is a possession WR without deep speed is beyond me, but that's just not accurate. Just because a guy isnt running go routes every 5 secs doesn't mean he doesn't posess deep ball ability. And whether its Garcon, Meachem, Manningham or whoever, I'm fine knowing that we addressed the issue even if its not the player I had at the top of my list.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:46 AM    (permalink
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Wouldnt mind Vincent Jackson but he's not worth that and im sorry, this is what pisses me off. People thinking that a 29 year old WR who's one screw up away from a season long suspension is worth that amount of money. Sorry but anyone who thinks that he's worth $10m or more a year for five years and Wallace isnt is a whopping moron plain and simple.
No one is saying we're going to pay VJax that kind of money. We shouldn't. But we're defintely not going to pay Wallace anything close to that. But there is a reason why VJax, even at 29, is worth that and Wallace is not. If you dont understand why, well then its best just to end the discussion on that note.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Dan, why are you tired of hearing about how great our signings were last year? Truth hurt? Because those signings help get us to 13-3. Without those signings, your singing a completely different tune this off-season. You can't use hindsight and say well if we would have been 3-13, no one would be saying anything. Your damn right, we wouldnt because OBVIOUSLY that would have meant those signings didnt work out. Thats like saying your weatherman got lucky because he accurately predicted it would be clear and sunny. He's paid to predict the weather accurately....so he should be right, more often than not. Most people tend to have more faith in guy who goes out and makes the right the decisions, not write him off as a product of luck. So you basically believe that the Niners "got lucky", not that ppl like Baalke and Jimbaugh put in the effort and the work to make this team 13-3. Kinda explains your 'Wallace or bust' attitude towards free agency.

And where you get this notion that Garcon is a possession WR without deep speed is beyond me, but that's just not accurate. Just because a guy isnt running go routes every 5 secs doesn't mean he doesn't posess deep ball ability. And whether its Garcon, Meachem, Manningham or whoever, I'm fine knowing that we addressed the issue even if its not the player I had at the top of my list.
I'm tired of hearing about how great those signings were because if we still had Nolan or Singletary as our HC or if Justin Smith doesnt make that huge play against PHI, no way in hell do we go 13-3. Those signings were great but they're also overrated. Rogers was good but not great. He got burned a lot during the season and if it wasnt for the 6 INT's he had, no one would even be mentioning him. Also, the front seven makes the secondary look better than what they were. Goldson had a great year but like Rogers both were playing under a one year deal and isnt it amazing how a player who's under a one year deal always seems to play better as opposed to if they were under a long term deal? Akers signing was good but is overrated because of our crappy offense in the redzone. He would never have had that season if we were able to score TD's. And its the fact that just because those cheap signings worked out (finally, after nine years) that they should repeat the process. They repeat the process and dont be aggressive, the same thing will happen as what happened in the NFCCG, we'll come out as the losers. And luck played into the season. Like they say, its better to be lucky than to be good. Every team needs good luck and yeah, it definitely plays a part in our 13-3 season. We had no major injuries except for Morgan so yeah, I would say thats lucky. Baalke and Harbaugh did a great job but if you dont think that luck plays a part in that then you're disillusional.

And I wouldnt complain if we signed Bowe, either Jackson, Colston, Johnson or Garcon but I do think that Wallace is worth the money compared to the veteran receivers and is a better option than DeSean, Johnson or Garcon but again, thats just me. Garcon is actually 4th on my list but im sorry, he's not a playmaker and neither is Meachem or Manningham. Personally, I rather stay with who we have instead of signing Meachem or Manningham because I honestly dont see how either one of them helps or improves the offense.

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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
No one is saying we're going to pay VJax that kind of money. We shouldn't. But we're defintely not going to pay Wallace anything close to that. But there is a reason why VJax, even at 29, is worth that and Wallace is not. If you dont understand why, well then its best just to end the discussion on that note.
I understand that Vincent Jackson is OVERRATED. I understand that. He's not worth more money than Wallace and isnt even as big of a playmaker and people make him out to be. If I had to choose between paying Jackson $10m per year for five years or the same to Wallace and give PIT the 30th overall draft pick, I would say welcome to SF Mr. Wallace. Add in that he's over 3 1/2 yeard older than Wallace, that he's one screw up away from a season long suspension and the fact that he isnt what we need at the outside WR position and the fact that he's also injury prone and that he'll most likely decline after getting paid and well, yeah, I do understand that you obviously favor Jackson over Wallace and thats fine. I favor Wallace over Jackson but the main reason why I want Wallace is because he adds that speed and deep playmaking ability the offense needs at WR. Jackson does not. Compare the positives and negatives between Jackson and Wallace and its a no-brainer. But hey, if it makes you feel better, I would much rather sign Garcon instead of Jackson too.
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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I can't find the energy to argue with you Dan, really. Your view on things are skewed to a perspective I can't seem to relate to. I'll agree to disagree and leave you to it...
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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So, if what happened didn't, things would be different. I guess we can't argue with that.
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Old 02-25-2012, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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Question.....can we negotiate with our own FA's until March 13th or is there a deadline?
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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If we lose Grant, anyone interested in signing Giants ILB Chase Blackburn to replace him?
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by dan77733 View Post
If we lose Grant, anyone interested in signing Giants ILB Chase Blackburn to replace him?
If we lose Grant (2nd round tender) I'd use the pick to stockpile talent.

I'd much rather a 2nd round pick than Blackburn.

I'm not worrying about FA money going towards backups.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:25 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
If we lose Grant (2nd round tender) I'd use the pick to stockpile talent.

I'd much rather a 2nd round pick than Blackburn.

I'm not worrying about FA money going towards backups.
Hmmm, what does getting the second round pick have to do with Blackburn? Unless, of course you're saying that you would use that draft pick on Grant's replacement?
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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Hmmm, what does getting the second round pick have to do with Blackburn? Unless, of course you're saying that you would use that draft pick on Grant's replacement?
I'm saying that signing Chase Blackburn is NOT a concern in any way. Grant is restricted, he'll have a high tender, and if he signs elsewhere, I'd be more concerned with nailing the draft pick than spending needed FA dollars on a backup ILB.

Blackburn was a starting LB on the Super Bowl Champion. He'll be looking for more money than the backup ILB in San Francisco.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:08 PM    (permalink
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I'm saying that signing Chase Blackburn is NOT a concern in any way. Grant is restricted, he'll have a high tender, and if he signs elsewhere, I'd be more concerned with nailing the draft pick than spending needed FA dollars on a backup ILB.

Blackburn was a starting LB on the Super Bowl Champion. He'll be looking for more money than the backup ILB in San Francisco.
True and he probably will but then again, who knows. He's closer to 30 than 25 so who knows. And I never said that we should sign Blackburn. I'm asking for opinions, thats all.

The only player I 100% want, you already know who he is. I dont really care about anyone else unless its our own FA's.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Maybe turn a Steelers fan if he stays there Dan looks like he is by far your favourite player in the whole league.
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Old 02-26-2012, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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I'd swear we were arguing against blowing up our draft to bring in an established Jerry Rice and not some guy that can be found for cheaper in the second to fourth rounds of this year's draft.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:36 PM    (permalink
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Pierre Garcon rumored to have turned down a 5 year, $35 million extension from the Colts:
http://www.draftinsider.net/blog/?p=6165

Other tidbit that caught my eye:
Quote:
- The buzz around Indianapolis is receiver Marques Colston is looking for a contract in the range of $7 million per year.
I've been anti-Colston past few weeks on the board but IMO $7 million a year would be a reasonable contract for Colston. I would have no issue if the 49ers were able to sign him for that amount.
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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Colston! Colston! Colston! Colston!

I WILL NOT LET THE DREAM DIE.

$7m per year? Please sign this guy on day 1.
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Old 02-28-2012, 12:37 AM    (permalink
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Even I wouldnt complain about signing Colston for $7m a year. Thats $3m cheaper than what I was expecting him to be asking for.
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Old 02-28-2012, 01:52 AM    (permalink
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All of the 49ers fans here are going to be pissed when Harbaugh and Baalke went until the sale is over and shuffle over the bargin bin deals again LMFAO.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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