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Old 03-10-2012, 09:31 PM    (permalink
BandwagonPunditry
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Try putting "[code]" and "[/ code]" (without the space) around your diagram. It should fix the spacing.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Try putting "[code]" and "[/ code]" (without the space) around your diagram. It should fix the spacing.
gracias, kind sir


It was dumb anyways. I'm sure you guys know exactly what I mean.


We're NOT a "spread" offense, therefore the field has to stretch vertically in order to open enough space in the center of the field for additional TEs to be utilized to their max potential.
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:49 PM    (permalink
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The reason i named Schillens is because i think he is the type of the guy that can be signed by Baalke. A low profile guy that has upside and when fit can make an impact in the red-zone. Also i think that Morgan showed last season before his ankle injury that he can become a number 1 receiver. Besides that he knows the playbook and i guess earns less. Why i prefer Hill above Fleener is because Hill has a much bigger upside but when Hill is gone before our pick Fleener can be an option altough our TE-core is a strong one already.
I understand your opinion of Schillens and Morgan but excluding the draft pick, say they combine for $7-8m a season. I personally would rather pay the extra $3m or so to get Wallace. Wouldnt you?

I agree with Morgan but I dont think that he can be a true number one WR like Wallace. Have to realize something else that I mentioned in my previous post....Morgan, Schillens, etc. arent going to push Crabtree to become better. Crabtree is basically Sanchez from the Jets. Goes through the motions most of the time because he knows that no one is taking his job and that he isnt going anywhere. In my plan, the 4th receiver would barely be used so no reason to sign a WR for a few million a season when I could put that money towards Wallace. To me, its all about value for the price. Granted, for $10m you could add two or three receivers but are they playmakers, are they team guys, are they a threat that defenses have to account for? Its about quality over quantity to me. Niners have a window and they need to take advantage of it before it closes and they have to go through a semi re-building.

I wouldnt re-sign Morgan and do think that he'll hit UFA and leave SF. I sure as hell wouldnt pay him more than $2-3m a season because A) he's not worth that and B) I could add that towards a premiere number one WR who defenses actually have to gameplay for. No defense is gameplanning for Morgan or any of these other guys.

Schillens, I have no interest in. You say big upside but how much upside can he have if he's always hurt or non-existent? To me, waste of money, time and a roster spot. Besides, add Fleener and you have your big red zone target...hell, him and Davis would be awesome in the red zone.

Our TE core is good with Davis, Walker and Byham but Byham is mainly a blocking TE and Walker is an UFA next year and I dont see the team paying him to stay as a backup when he'll most likely get starter money which is why I try to trade up for Fleener and then trade Walker because I'll get something for Walker instead of seeing him leave as an UFA. Fleener (and Wallace) will also still be in their prime in three years when Kaepernick starts.

At the end of the day, adding all these second or third tier receivers will accomplish the same thing as this past season - a season ending loss in the playoffs if that and here's why - every defense we play will have a year's worth of tape to study our offense and without watching one tape, I can already tell you what they would be gameplanning against - Gore and Davis in that order. No defense is going to fear all these second/third tier guys. They just arent and when you dont have a WR who can get down the field and make plays, the defense stays in that 20 yards or less area because all the receivers are in that are all bunched together and either A) Smith throws the ball away, B) gets sacked or C) throws a crappy short pass that didnt accomplish anything whether its completed or not. And then, your favorite, a punt. :)
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Old 03-10-2012, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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I'll try to do this with "pictures" because I can't seem to say it and be understood...


How does Fleener make a bigger impact?



___________________
Code:
CB    FS     SS   CB
WR    TE  TE WR
    LB        LB          LB
                     RB       

DE     DT       DT      DE
 LT    LG   C    RG     RT
           QB
____________________

22 players within 15 yards of each other (18 inside the hashes.)


Fleener is an AMAZING threat, but he will only show tremendous dividends if the 49ers add a WR that can stretch the field in order to create more space within the middle of the field (as you can see it's cluttered, and there are more defenders than offensive players.) Without that added space, multiple TE sets aren't as effective.


The 49ers need "this"...

_____________
Code:
CB FS
WR

                  SS
                TE

           CB 
             WR 

LB       LB
TE           RB LB

      DE DT DT DE
      LT LG C RG RT
              QB

MORE SPACE to create plays!!!!



/ really dumb stick-in-dirt session
Actually, I understand exactly what you're saying and we're not a spread offense. Never said we should be but we do need the element of being able to do that if we have to or need to. It would be nice to be able to blow away teams with offense instead of depending on our defense and special teams all the time to bail us out a win.

And I agree with you in regards to Fleener and now you see why I would sign Wallace AND draft Fleener. :)
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Old 03-10-2012, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Our TE core is good with Davis, Walker and Byham but Byham is mainly a blocking TE and Walker is an UFA next year and I dont see the team paying him to stay as a backup when he'll most likely get starter money which is why I try to trade up for Fleener and then trade Walker because I'll get something for Walker instead of seeing him leave as an UFA. Fleener (and Wallace) will also still be in their prime in three years when Kaepernick starts.
Signing Fleener seems a bit of a luxury pick. You don't want to pay Walker as a starter so you draft Fleener, who will command a starter's money. We're in the same place in two years time. Two starting TEs being paid starter's money except in the Walker scenario we have an addition draft pick. Seems like we have bigger fish to fry (WR).
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:03 AM    (permalink
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Signing Fleener seems a bit of a luxury pick. You don't want to pay Walker as a starter so you draft Fleener, who will command a starter's money. We're in the same place in two years time. Two starting TEs being paid starter's money except in the Walker scenario we have an addition draft pick. Seems like we have bigger fish to fry (WR).
How are we paying Fleener starting money? With there actually being a cap on drafted rookies, he wont cost as much as years past and we'll still need a replacement for Walker anyway so instead of waiting, better off drafting Fleener to replace Walker who would then be traded during the same draft and have another playmaker for next five years. Also, Davis is 28 which means when the time comes, hopefully we'll already have his successor in Fleener and have a safety valve for Kaepernick. And I dont see how we're in the same place in two years...he would be a first rounder and thus can be signed to a five year deal.

I dont see Fleener as a luxury pick at all since Harbaugh likes running two TE sets and with Walker most likely going to leave as an UFA in 2013, getting his replacement this upcoming draft is a better idea. Upgrade, younger and will still be here when Kaepernick starts at QB.

As for WR, you already know who I want and im sorry, I think that Fleener would make a bigger impact at 30 then any of the WR's who'll be available at the same spot. Signing Wallace and drafting Fleener also adds pressure to Crabtree to improve or be traded next off-season because quite honestly, its a lot easier and cheaper to find a number two receiver to compliment Wallace than it will be to sign a number one receiver who Crabtree can compliment.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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How are we paying Fleener starting money? With there actually being a cap on drafted rookies, he wont cost as much as years past and we'll still need a replacement for Walker anyway so instead of waiting, better off drafting Fleener to replace Walker who would then be traded during the same draft and have another playmaker for next five years. Also, Davis is 28 which means when the time comes, hopefully we'll already have his successor in Fleener and have a safety valve for Kaepernick. And I dont see how we're in the same place in two years...he would be a first rounder and thus can be signed to a five year deal.

I dont see Fleener as a luxury pick at all since Harbaugh likes running two TE sets and with Walker most likely going to leave as an UFA in 2013, getting his replacement this upcoming draft is a better idea. Upgrade, younger and will still be here when Kaepernick starts at QB.
A lot of people available at #30 will be talented. We could grab the best kicker in the draft at #30 if we wanted to but we don't need a kicker. TE is one of the strongest and deepest positions on our squad - Walker is already a playmaker at the position and under contract for two more years. If there aren't any good options at WR then there will certainly be other areas we can upgrade in. (Guard for example)

If Flenner is the BPA I guess I could understand the rationale, but I think using our first rounder to replace a #2 TE who's still under contract on the assumption that we can trade them away a bit of a waste. We'd still have two playmaking TEs either way and we'd be spending a draft pick on staying in the same place. I'm sure Fleener is a great prospect but we can better use our pick.

By the way, I also find it strange that you talk about using our 'window to win' and yet want to draft Fleener to be an understudy with a view to replacing Davis in four-five years.

Quote:
As for WR, you already know who I want and im sorry, I think that Fleener would make a bigger impact at 30 then any of the WR's who'll be available at the same spot. Signing Wallace and drafting Fleener also adds pressure to Crabtree to improve or be traded next off-season because quite honestly, its a lot easier and cheaper to find a number two receiver to compliment Wallace than it will be to sign a number one receiver who Crabtree can compliment.
It wouldn't be a Dan post without a Wallace namecheck. Let's not forget the other small issue with your plan:

You can't sign Wallace and draft Fleener with the same first round pick.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:33 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BandwagonPunditry
A lot of people available at #30 will be talented. We could grab the best kicker in the draft at #30 if we wanted to but we don't need a kicker. TE is one of the strongest and deepest positions on our squad - Walker is already a playmaker at the position and under contract for two more years. If there aren't any good options at WR then there will certainly be other areas we can upgrade in. (Guard for example)

If Flenner is the BPA I guess I could understand the rationale, but I think using our first rounder to replace a #2 TE who's still under contract on the assumption that we can trade them away a bit of a waste. We'd still have two playmaking TEs either way and we'd be spending a draft pick on staying in the same place. I'm sure Fleener is a great prospect but we can better use our pick.

By the way, I also find it strange that you talk about using our 'window to win' and yet want to draft Fleener to be an understudy with a view to replacing Davis in four-five years.



It wouldn't be a Dan post without a Wallace namecheck. Let's not forget the other small issue with your plan:

You can't sign Wallace and draft Fleener with the same first round pick.
According to ninercaphell.com, Walker is an UFA in 2013 which means he has one year left on his contract. If it was two years, I wouldnt even be mentioning Fleener or Walker. Walker is set to earn over $1.9m for 2012. I dont know what the rate would be for Fleener at 30 but I dont think it was a huge amount or anything obsurd. And adding Fleener isnt a waste because with (and especially without) adding a top tier number one WR, our passing offense will finally be legitimate and Alex Smith/Harbaugh will have the offense needed to be more aggressive as opposed to being predictable.

Yes, im aware of the draft pick situation. If it was me, I would send 30 to PIT for Wallace and if Fleener was to drop into the 20's, I would trade this year's 2nd, 3rd and 4th so I can draft Fleener. And yeah, I know thats a lot to give up for just two players but if it can 7+ more points per game to the 23+ that we averaged last season, it would be worth it. Plus, I think that we could get at least a 4th for Walker so it would probably just be a 2nd and 3rd.

Trust me, you may think im nuts but with the next two off-seasons focused on re-signing UFA's in 2013 and 2014, this is the off-season to take some chances. And we would still have two drafts to rebuild a few positions but look at the team if it was up to me and their age as of right now -

QB - Smith 27, Kaepernick 24
RB - Gore 28, Hunter 23, Dixon 24
FB - Miller 24
WR - Wallace 25, Crabtree 24, Williams 23, Ginn 26
TE - Davis 28, Fleener 24, Byham 23
C - Goodwin 33, Beeler 24
OG - Iupati 24, Snyder 30, Kilgore 24, Person 23
OT - Staley 27, Davis 22, Boone 24

DE - Smith 32, McDonald 27, Dobbs 24, Tukuafu 28
DT - Sopoaga 30, Jean-Francois 25, Williams 22
OLB - Brooks 27, Smith 22, Haralson 28
ILB - Willis 27, Bowman 23, Costanzo 27
CB - Brown 27, Culliver 23, Jason Allen 28, Brock 23, Holcomb 23
SS - Whitner 26, Spillman 27
FS - Goldson 27, Jones 23

K - Akers 37
P - Lee 29

In 2013, our UFA's would be DT Isaac Sopoaga, DT Ricky Jean-Francois and P Andy Lee. The other two are TE Delanie Walker (who I would trade if im able to draft Fleener) and CB Shawntae Spencer who should be released if he doesnt get traded. Either way, thats only three UFA's and all draft picks will be signed for at least three years or longer. And just you know I would re-sign Costanzo, Brock and Ginn long term. Snyder for two years so I can replace him and Goodwin at the same time.

2014 will be the year in which we have a lot of UFA's in which I think majority of them will be re-signed a year from now because the salary cap is expected to be $150m next off-season. When you look at 2013 and 2014, NOW is the time that we can take chances. Next two years, I honestly dont see us signing any top tier FA unless a horrible injury or something bad happens.

in 2014, they have WR Kyle Williams, DE Justin Smith, OLB Parys Haralson, ILB NaVorro Bowman, CB Tarell Brown and SS Donte Whitner as UFA's. Those are just the starters or a top backup. Haralson would probably be allowed to leave as an UFA if he's still here at that time with Smith 50/50 depending on if he's still playing at a high level.

Seriously, I have looked at their roster and contracts. This off-season is the ONLY year I can see them acquiring a top tier WR and I want Wallace (or even Garcon) because they're young where as a Jackson or Colston would have to be replaced sooner rather than later and when Kaepernick takes over, he'll still have Hunter, Miller, Wallace, Williams, Davis, Fleener, Staley, Iupati and Davis because they're either be under contract or extended. Only position on offense I worry about is replacing Gore. I wouldnt be surprised if they draft his successor next year.

My plan keeps the core pretty much intact for at least two more years and allows the team to re-sign majority of their UFA's in the next two years while adding playmakers Wallace and Fleener. When you look at the roster as a whole, the only weakness could be NT depending on what they do with Sopoaga. Other than him, team is set for a good long run but in case guys want more money or other stuff happens, the team has a legitimate chance to win a SB within three years but they need to add a top tier WR at the very least and Wallace is a team guy and someone who can be your number one receiver for at least the next five years. 49ers just need to make the aggressive moves now because after this off-season, I dont see how they'll be able to since they wont have the money.
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Old 03-11-2012, 04:05 AM    (permalink
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Dan, that trade up to get Fleener is never going to happen. Just by the trade value chart alone, you're about 140 points off to even acquire the #32 pick. If you want to get up to #20, then you're off by 400 points. No team is going to want to go from #20 to #62 and only net a late 3rd and a late 4th. That is ridiculous.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Dan, that trade up to get Fleener is never going to happen. Just by the trade value chart alone, you're about 140 points off to even acquire the #32 pick. If you want to get up to #20, then you're off by 400 points. No team is going to want to go from #20 to #62 and only net a late 3rd and a late 4th. That is ridiculous.
True but if its a team that needs a TE, there's where Walker comes into play as well. I could also trade a backup somewhere or throw in the 5th. Trust me, I would get it done and rest assured, it wouldnt include any future draft picks or top tier players.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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Three months too late. :(

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...out-for-49ers/

Now, I could care less. Anyone know who's Moss agent? If its the same agent as who represents Alex Smith, I could see this as just a favor. Either way, I wont be happy if we sign Moss. UGH.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:00 AM    (permalink
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So basically you would give up the whole draft for just Fleener and Wallace? If there is one thing that Baalke showed last season is that he can evaluate talent and how they translate. I understand that the jackpot won't be hit each year like this one but giving up so much picks for just Fleener would be a bad move. First for Wallace i could understand but after that trading up for Fleener would be a huge misstake.

Besides that you say that this is the only year we could go deep for a top receiver but doesn't that mean you will come to trouble with capspace when you need to resign your own in those years?

And about the Moss thing. The reason he wasn't brought in is because you cant learn the playbook in such short time especially when you haven't played for some time. And a work-out cant do any damage just see what he can at this stage and if he looks good you can always take a shot.

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Old 03-11-2012, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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A deep threat only guy like Wallace just doesn't fit our offense. We need someone that can also work the intermediate areas. Wallace is elite at being a deep threat, but he doesn't provide much else, and isn't a big redzone threat. I like him a lot, but he would disappoint in SF and I don't want to give up a first for that.

In fact, I'm starting to feel like we're not going to spend on a No. 1 WR in FA and also pass on a WR in the first as well. I just don't see a top FA WR or first round WR getting enough looks to justify the money/draft position in the context of Harbaugh's offense along with Alex's limitations.
This is where you are wrong. Very wrong.

Wallace is not just a deep threat. He can run the full route tree, and is a true playmaker. It is clear you have not watched very much of Wallace if you are going to make statements like he is a one trick pony. That is not opinion, it is fact and can be supported by watching him play. He had just as many first downs as Nicks and Jackson, and one short of Colston. He was used on every level by the Steelers (short, intermediate and deep) since really coming on in 2010.

His speed is also something this team lacks and would force teams to respect the deep ball, thus he will help open things up underneath for Crabtree and Davis when not being asked to run short/intermediate routes.

And what this teams needs more than anything is a true playmaker on the outside. Big bodied receivers are nice redzone threats but they are not essential in the NFL. Once upon a time this team scored at will and won many games with Taylor and Rice, neither big bodied red zone threats. And you can count many teams around the league currently and in the past who have done the same.

With a full offseason, Harbaugh and Roman have plenty of time to reassess the plays, packages, playcalling and execution in the redzone and will be able to work on improving that area. It would be nice to have a big redzone threat but it is not crucial to this team, that in itself is a misconception.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by dan77733 View Post
Three months too late. :(

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...out-for-49ers/

Now, I could care less. Anyone know who's Moss agent? If its the same agent as who represents Alex Smith, I could see this as just a favor. Either way, I wont be happy if we sign Moss. UGH.
Straight cash homie. Randy Moss's agent is Joel Segal. According to Moss he sat out last season because he had some family problems.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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This was written before the Superbowl last year...(Tomlin called Wallace a one trick pony earlier in the season as a motivational ploy) :

Montgomery is Steelers WR coach Scottie Montgomery.

Quote:
Montgomery noted that since Wallace was challenged by the one-trick pony ploy, his production has increased and his ability to contribute in a number of ways has grown.

"Now Mike wants to score on a one-step slant or he wants to be a great blocker out on the edge," Montgomery said. "He wants to show people now to the point where he won't let us call him a one-trick pony because he's put a plethora of things on film, and on tape as we like to say, that will help him become a significant player, and go from being just a great player that (picks up) a lot of yards."

Like Tomlin, though, Montgomery is cautious about letting Wallace know how far he has come.

"We still give him a hard time, so don't tell him I said he's not a one-trick pony," Montgomery ordered.
Here is what Tomlin said about calling Wallace a one trick pony :

Quote:
"Mike has a physical distinguishing characteristic," Tomlin noted. "Of course he is capable of taking the top off the coverage. I was just trying to encourage him in my way to be a complete player. He has the desire to do that. He wants to be a great player. We all know that if he's going to do that, if he's going to have a chance to do that, it's going to be because he has a complete, well-rounded game. He plays with the ball. He plays without the ball. He can run a variety of routes. He's good in the run game, etc., etc. All of those are things that he's trying to develop, and he's doing a nice job of it this year."
Belichick's take on Wallace :

Quote:
Prior to the Patriots-Steelers game on Oct. 30, 2011, Patriots coach Bill Belichick was asked about Wallace, who was targeted as a key player to limit in the game-plan, which opened up the inside passing game for the Steelers. "He's a big play receiver. He's really fast. Nobody is going to catch him, so you have to be careful about how much space he gets when he catches the ball," Belichick said. "I think he's improved a lot from when we played them last year, just as a football player, his patience and route technique. He has great speed but he also is getting better at route technique, setting up routes, using his speed, changing his pace. He's good after the catch with the ball in his hands. He breaks tackles and eludes people, does a nice job of going up and getting the ball in the deep part of the field, he's taken it away from some defensive backs. I'd say overall [he] improved his route running in the red area where there's less space. He still is a key guy down there. He did a lot of things well last year, doing them well this year and even better. [He's made] plays in just about every game. He stretches the field but he can also take a short pass and turn it into a long run, so you have to defend him from the line of scrimmage to the back of the end zone and from sideline to sideline. He's a tough guy to match up on. He's done a good job. Obviously he's worked hard and he's being well coached and he's got a good quarterback and other good receivers to complement him. He's part of their very productive offense."
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by VAfy-ya View Post
The real question is do you really think that Baalke would give up what it takes to get him? Then pay him like a # 1 WR? I don't....not for a second.
From Matt Maiocco

Quote:
Q : Do you think the 49ers are more likely to target Vincent Jackson or Mike Wallace? Or is another WR more likely? (Patrick Surad)

A: Both.

That's right, both. The 49ers have targeted both Vincent Jackson and Mike Wallace at a specific price.

The 49ers do not get into bidding wars for players, though. So if one of those players accepts the deal that the 49ers have budgeted, then they'll get it done. If not, the 49ers will move on to the next player at the next price that they've determined fits with what they're trying to build.
And the likelihood is that there will be a bidding war for the services of V-Jax because he is an UFA. Wallace is in a different boat...

Also from Maiocco on the FA WR's he said this about Wallace :

Quote:
San Francisco set up well to make run with a first-round pick as compensation because of draft position at No. 30 overall
There could be other teams with interest in Wallace so if a war ignites then we may bow out like we did with Nnamdi last year, though Nnamdi was an UFA so his market was a little different. However this team has shown they are willing to spend for top talents.

And if you don't think he fits the offense, a west coast offense then you must be crazy. Desean Jackson, Greg Jennings, Donald Driver, Sterling Sharpe, Joey Galloway, Jerry Rice....the list goes on and on with WR's who were not BIG receivers who excelled in WCO's.

A 3rd year receiver only 25 years old who has only begun to scratch the surface of his talent and potential could only continue to grow and develop under Harbaugh and Roman.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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Rice and Taylor were considered big, physical receivers in their day. Their success is one of the reasons teams started looking for bigger corners. Then you had guys like Sharpe and Irvin come in who were very physical guys. What we see now with the Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson and Vincent Jackson is further evolution of this trend.

Commentators commented ad nauseum about the size of the Niners' receivers and their whole yards after the catch deal that they brought to the game.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rabscuttle View Post
Rice and Taylor were considered big, physical receivers in their day. Their success is one of the reasons teams started looking for bigger corners. Then you had guys like Sharpe and Irvin come in who were very physical guys. What we see now with the Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson and Vincent Jackson is further evolution of this trend.

Commentators commented ad nauseum about the size of the Niners' receivers and their whole yards after the catch deal that they brought to the game.
I was not talking about physicality, I was talking about body type/size.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Well thank God Dan isnt the GM. This whole, "now is the time" rhetoric is just absurd. Baalke is trying to build the franchise to the point where we dont have a "window". Look at teams like the Steelers, the Giants, the Ravens, the Packers. They have been competitve regulars in the post-season for nearly a decade. And they have done it by having solid coaching, making sound decisions personel wise, and by using the draft to build the core of their team. Did they have a window? Did they have one year to make bold moves or were doomed to wallow in mediocrity? I mean really, you make it seem headed back to the cellar of the NFC West if these moves aren't made or we don't strike while the iron is hot. That's the Daniel Synder approach to things and one that I don't agree with. Baalke is building this team the right way, with a EMPHASIS on using the draft to improve and maintain the talent level, while retaining key personel and using free agency to occasionally fill a need or two and bring competition into the fold. Whether we go after Wallace or use the draft to acquire the next Wallace, our future as a competitve franchise won't hinge on what we do or don't do this off-season. What I do know is if you look at Baalke's track record from his first two drafts, he's more likely to use our fist pick on the most glaring weakness on the team. And a TE isnt one of them. The regining GM Of The Year will address our weaknesses and we'll make the best football decision and business decision this off-season so that we're competitve this year, as well as down the road.

And no team with a Pro Bowl caliber TE should be drafting a TE in the first round. Who does that? No matter how much Jimbaugh uses TEs, we dont need a team full of first round TEs. We have Reuland who the coaches seem to like. Byham is ahead of schedule and will be ready by the start of OTAs. That's a position you can address later in the draft or go the UDFA route, since its not a pressing need at the moment. And even when Walker becomes a UFA, we should still have some capable bodies there to where we aren't needing to spend a first round pick on a TE. I just think that's a move that, no matter what WR we sign in free agency, is not going to make the team better when we still have needs at RG, CB, OLB, and Saftey. Even though I would hate to spend another first round pick on the O-Line , I'd rather see a RG@30 or a CB than a TE.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by H.O.O.D View Post
I was not talking about physicality, I was talking about body type/size.
They were considered big too.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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So basically you would give up the whole draft for just Fleener and Wallace? If there is one thing that Baalke showed last season is that he can evaluate talent and how they translate. I understand that the jackpot won't be hit each year like this one but giving up so much picks for just Fleener would be a bad move. First for Wallace i could understand but after that trading up for Fleener would be a huge misstake.

Besides that you say that this is the only year we could go deep for a top receiver but doesn't that mean you will come to trouble with capspace when you need to resign your own in those years?

And about the Moss thing. The reason he wasn't brought in is because you cant learn the playbook in such short time especially when you haven't played for some time. And a work-out cant do any damage just see what he can at this stage and if he looks good you can always take a shot.
Pretty much, yes because having more explosive weapons in the passing offense is our only major need and weak spot. I believe that Fleener would make a bigger impact than any actual WR because it will be easier to make the transition from college to the NFL, he was with Harbaugh at Stanford so he knows the basics of what Harbaugh runs, he'll have Davis to learn from and study plus unlike a WR being drafted at 30, Fleener wouldnt be expected to start and thus, the pressure isnt there.

When you look at the offense, a legitimate passing game is whats missing to where we could be nearly unstoppable. We averaged 23+ ppg last season and just adding an extra TD offensively puts us at 30+ ppg. With our defense, special teams and running game, thats a HUGE difference and when we play teams like the Lions, Packers, Saints, Giants, etc. who have elite QB's and receivers and a passing attack, we'll be able to match them if needed and possibly surpass them.

In regards to contracts and whatnot, we would still have plenty of cap room because the cap will increase the next two off-seasons which will allow us to keep the core intact for as long as possible. Making smart decisions is key though. To me, re-signing CB Carlos Rogers for whatever amount of money is a mistake because of his age and a guy like Jason Allen can be signed for half the price, play the slot, backup at safety if needed and is two years younger and also adds veteran experience.

Morgan is another guy who I would let leave because if im acquiring Wallace and then Fleener, im not going to need this guy and he would be 4th best on the depth chart and isnt worth the money at that spot. While you want value and whatnot, the value still has to be worth the price. To me, I rather pay more to get Wallace and Allen instead of keeping Morgan and Rogers but thats just me.

Even after the 49ers were to re-sign Smith, Snyder, Ginn, Brock and Costanzo and acquire Wallace and Allen, they would still be under the cap with enough room for their few draft picks. The depth would still be there with young developmental guys on the bottom while the starting offense becomes better and the starting defense remains pretty much intact and while losing Rogers may hurt, I dont think that it will. Allen will do just as good in the slot for less money and is two years younger plus Brown/Culliver can start which is what I want to see happen.

Back to the future FA's, not all of them will be retained. I dont expect Haralson back, Sopoaga/Justin Smith is 50/50 and Tarell Brown is also 50/50. So, cap wise, im not worried especially since they have Marthe. They may have cap room to sign a FA next year or in 2014 but when you look at the roster, they wont have to because pretty much everyone remains intact.

In regards to giving up a lot for Fleener, to me its about quality over quantity. Going back to the 2004 NFL Draft, we only have two players still on the team (Sopoaga/Lee), three if you count Spencer but I dont. 2005, its three (Smith/Gore/Snyder). 2006, its three (Davis/Haralson/Walker). 2007 its five (Willis/Staley/McDonald/Goldson/Brown). 2008 will be ZERO if Morgan leaves and someone signs away Grant who I think is as good as gone. 2009, its only two (Crabtree/Jean-Francois). 2010, its six (Davis/Iupati/Bowman/Dixon/Byham/Williams) and for 2011, its nine with the only player who's gone was WR Ronald Johnson.

If you subtract 2010 and 2011, the ratio is bad so when you think about it, having more draft picks isnt always a positive. Like they say, less is more. And even if I only come away with Wallace and Fleener and a backup/special teamer or two, so be it. The reason why im willing to sacrifice this year's draft is because after you add Wallace, your starters are set and in a lot of positions, even the third string guy is already set so to me, its not like the draft picks for this year are going to make an impact. Majority of them will be backups/special teamers or practice squad players. To me, I rather have Wallace and Fleener.

Adding them to the offense for not only Smith but Kaepernick down the line is HUGE and much more important than people realize. Re-signing Morgan or getting these other average receivers isnt going to improve a damn thing, period because at the end of the day, defenses will still be focused on Gore and then Davis with everyone else an afterthought.

Offensively...Wallace easily becomes our number one WR and upgrades the position. Crabtree slides to number two which he's better suited for and that position gets upgraded. Williams goes in the slot which is an upgrade and suits him best. Fleener can line up next to Davis or in the slot opposite Williams. Thats an upgrade. There's a reason why offensive based passing attacks have won the SB the last several years....its because no defense can cover all of those weapons. The difference for us is that we have a better running game, a better defense and better special teams. You add an explosive passing attack and you pretty much have all four aspects covered to perfection.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rabscuttle View Post
Rice and Taylor were considered big, physical receivers in their day. Their success is one of the reasons teams started looking for bigger corners. Then you had guys like Sharpe and Irvin come in who were very physical guys. What we see now with the Calvin Johnson, Andre Johnson and Vincent Jackson is further evolution of this trend.

Commentators commented ad nauseum about the size of the Niners' receivers and their whole yards after the catch deal that they brought to the game.
That was the old NFL. Now the game is different and you have seen the rise of the smaller, quicker WRs.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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Well thank God Dan isnt the GM. This whole, "now is the time" rhetoric is just absurd. Baalke is trying to build the franchise to the point where we dont have a "window". Look at teams like the Steelers, the Giants, the Ravens, the Packers. They have been competitve regulars in the post-season for nearly a decade. And they have done it by having solid coaching, making sound decisions personel wise, and by using the draft to build the core of their team. Did they have a window? Did they have one year to make bold moves or were doomed to wallow in mediocrity? I mean really, you make it seem headed back to the cellar of the NFC West if these moves aren't made or we don't strike while the iron is hot. That's the Daniel Synder approach to things and one that I don't agree with. Baalke is building this team the right way, with a EMPHASIS on using the draft to improve and maintain the talent level, while retaining key personel and using free agency to occasionally fill a need or two and bring competition into the fold. Whether we go after Wallace or use the draft to acquire the next Wallace, our future as a competitve franchise won't hinge on what we do or don't do this off-season. What I do know is if you look at Baalke's track record from his first two drafts, he's more likely to use our fist pick on the most glaring weakness on the team. And a TE isnt one of them. The regining GM Of The Year will address our weaknesses and we'll make the best football decision and business decision this off-season so that we're competitve this year, as well as down the road.

And no team with a Pro Bowl caliber TE should be drafting a TE in the first round. Who does that? No matter how much Jimbaugh uses TEs, we dont need a team full of first round TEs. We have Reuland who the coaches seem to like. Byham is ahead of schedule and will be ready by the start of OTAs. That's a position you can address later in the draft or go the UDFA route, since its not a pressing need at the moment. And even when Walker becomes a UFA, we should still have some capable bodies there to where we aren't needing to spend a first round pick on a TE. I just think that's a move that, no matter what WR we sign in free agency, is not going to make the team better when we still have needs at RG, CB, OLB, and Saftey. Even though I would hate to spend another first round pick on the O-Line , I'd rather see a RG@30 or a CB than a TE.
Giants, Packers and Steelers all have elite QB's and far better receivers than we do. Ravens have a defense that helps the offense but look at them....they're the perfect example. They will never get to a SB without improving their offense and yeah, its better than what it was but not to where its SB caliber.

If we dont get a WR in FA, I do see Harbaugh drafting Fleener at 30 if he's there. As for other needs, RG should be filled by Snyder for two more years until Kilgore is hopefully ready. CB isnt as big of a need as you think it is. Adding a guy like Allen to replace Rogers is a good move and eliminates the need. Safety wise, we have Whitner and Goldson. How is safety a need? Backups arent exactly a need but you can get them at any time anywhere.

A playmaker on offense is a different story and you know it. Come on man, seeing the 49ers dynasty with five Super Bowl championships was because of the QB/WR combo we had. We didnt win five SB with defense or special teams only and you know it. The element that we're missing is the one that will get us to the SB and not just win it, but blow out the other piece of crap team.

And hey, im not Snyder. I never said I would do what he has done, did or will ever do so dont compare me to him. The team is finally good again and all im hoping for really is Wallace and ill be happy. When I wanted every top tier FA known to man it was because we sucked and sorry, draft picks arent as important as you make them out to be because if you subtract the last two years, where are our the majority of our draft picks since 2004? Thats right, on other teams or just gone.

The difference between drafting a WR and acquring Wallace is simple...with Wallace, there's no guesswork, theres no 50/50 to what you're getting...you already know. Its just a simple matter of using him to his strengths as best as possible and I have confidence in Harbaugh that he can and will do just that. A rookie WR is going to do what for us? Be 4th or so on the depth chart, sit on the bench for two or so years and then finally make an impact?

And whats funny is that you dont realize that nearly every player that jumps from one team to another as an FA were at one time a draft pick. Every draft pick is a 50/50 risk but would rather risk a long term contract on a 25 year old already established receiver or a rookie? Or a 29 year old in Vincent Jackson? I rather go after the 25 year old thats already established but thats just me.
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Old 03-11-2012, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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We had the luck this year that there where so little injuries to major players except on the receiver spot. We never had the full receiver corps fit for a game and thats in my opinion a big part of why our passing game was so bad at the end of the season. When your can have consistent production on every position when you have to put in a back-up you can be a consistent producer and fight for the SB. Its not that you only need to have the starters full with the best talent you can have but its about the whole roster. When Willis went down you saw how important it is to have a back-up that can contribute to the team.

Besides that when you look at how Baalke drafted a lot of those guys are good parts of the team for the long term. Guys like Bowman, Davis, Iupati, Culliver, Miller, Smith and such can only get better while they are pretty good at this stage. Look at a team like the Steelers and you see the best example of how you can be a big player in the league with making the right calls in the draft room. Picking up guys that maybe need to learn for 1,2 years before they can play and then can replace a guy that wants to make too much money. Builiding a contributor is something you do over a longer term and not just go after the biggest fish you can. When you can keep Morgen or sign a veteran WR and draft a receiver that can learn behind him thats a way you can stay on the top.
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Old 03-11-2012, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H.O.O.D View Post
This is where you are wrong. Very wrong.

Wallace is not just a deep threat. He can run the full route tree, and is a true playmaker. It is clear you have not watched very much of Wallace if you are going to make statements like he is a one trick pony. That is not opinion, it is fact and can be supported by watching him play. He had just as many first downs as Nicks and Jackson, and one short of Colston. He was used on every level by the Steelers (short, intermediate and deep) since really coming on in 2010.

His speed is also something this team lacks and would force teams to respect the deep ball, thus he will help open things up underneath for Crabtree and Davis when not being asked to run short/intermediate routes.

And what this teams needs more than anything is a true playmaker on the outside. Big bodied receivers are nice redzone threats but they are not essential in the NFL. Once upon a time this team scored at will and won many games with Taylor and Rice, neither big bodied red zone threats. And you can count many teams around the league currently and in the past who have done the same.

With a full offseason, Harbaugh and Roman have plenty of time to reassess the plays, packages, playcalling and execution in the redzone and will be able to work on improving that area. It would be nice to have a big redzone threat but it is not crucial to this team, that in itself is a misconception.

Its all preference and opinion. I watch ALOT of Steelers games. Wallace is improving but he's still a very medicore route runner and I question his 'want' to go across the middle and make tough, chain-moving catches. People dont realize that Big Ben's escpability plays a part in Wallace's production. Ben buys time in the pocket most QBs dont have, where he's able to extend plays and allow guys like Wallace and Brown to come free underneath. Not saying that they're a by product of Big Ben, but he does buy more time in the pocket than the average QB to make plays, intermediate-deep. Its they're scheme that caters to Wallace's strengths. Arians ran more of a vertical scheme. Harbaugh's WCO isnt like others, in that is more similar to the traditional WCO than that of Philly, GB, and Houston. Less shotgun, more closed sets, more shifting and pre-snap motioning, more un-balanced lines, just a differnet mindset all together. Guys like Reid and McCarthy pass to set-up the run. Thats not Harbaugh's line of thinking. I still say this WCO wouldnt be the best fit for what you should be paying Wallace top dollar to do....which is get vertical and work off routes that cater to that element in his game.

Its not that I think Wallace is necessarily a bad WR. Its jus my opinion that he isn't worth what is being asked of him. I understand Baalke will offer guys. He puts a value on every free agent and target guys he likes. But I need more than the word of a beat writer who has been wrong more times than I can count, about excatly who were targeting until it happens. Baalke and Harbaugh run a very tight ship. They are very careful with info, especially in terms of personel. I'll take a wait and see approach to just how much intrest they show Wallace, VJax, and any other FA WR.

Last edited by VAfy-ya : 03-11-2012 at 01:35 PM.
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