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View Poll Results: Who is your favorite philosopher(s)?
Ancient Philosophy (Aristotle, Plato) 13 19.40%
Scholasticism (St. Thomas Aquinas) 3 4.48%
Renaissance Humanism (Thomas More, Erasmus) 1 1.49%
Rationalism (Descartes, Voltaire, Kant) 18 26.87%
Empiricism, Social Contract (John Locke, David Hume) 11 16.42%
Social Materialism/Marxism (Karl Marx, Hegel) 6 8.96%
Existentialism (Kafka, Nietzsche) 7 10.45%
Post-Moderism/Structuralism (Derrida, Foucault, Nietzsche) 5 7.46%
Analytical Philosophy (Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein) 1 1.49%
Structuralism (Levi-Strauss, Ferdinand de Saussure, Chomsky) 2 2.99%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-04-2009, 01:07 PM    (permalink
someone447
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how is that human nature though? if u have the option between the two, its up to you to decide, what u ultimately chose is not prescribed, its something that involves from your person. you dont always chose violence, its because u chose violence because u believe in it to be the best possible option and looking back it obviously wasnt.



u really think no one wouldve thought: Hey, its easier if we store something, so after some point we dont always have to go out and hunt, say if we are sick, we can just use the storage. it benefits us.
It is human nature to use the most efficient means to achieve the end we want. Violence is often the most efficient means.

Hunting and gathering was actually much easier than early farming. Early farming only allowed those who were good at it to gain power. That is why it started cropping up.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:07 PM    (permalink
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well yes, thats why the idea is to give everyone shelter and food. thats not greed though. thats surviving.

the biggest difference between humans and animals (beside our awesome thumbs) is the ability to reason, to think. most of the things, most of violence are totally idiotic looking back at it and it stems from wrong sets of minds. my point is to try to diminish these wrong sets of mind

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It is human nature to use the most efficient means to achieve the end we want. Violence is often the most efficient means.

Hunting and gathering was actually much easier than early farming. Early farming only allowed those who were good at it to gain power. That is why it started cropping up.
well Violence isnt always the most efficient way, thats idiotic. its usually the easiest way but looking at the whole picture, its not smart or the best way at all to do things.


and i think i dont get ur second point. are u talking about storing the hunted meat or about developing into a farming society
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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so what is there to be greedy about without materialistic possessions and money?
There will always be materialistic possessions, be they a patch of land you call home, a hut you live in or an ipod. A world without materialistic possessions is simply impossible. But even if we ignore material positions you would see greed in people's actions, where they go, what they do, the oppurtunities that present themselves, all ofthose things will show greed.

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how is that human nature though? if u have the option between the two, its up to you to decide, what u ultimately chose is not prescribed, its something that involves from your person. you dont always chose violence, its because u chose violence because u believe in it to be the best possible option and looking back it obviously wasnt.
Well it obviously was for some. Otherwise gengis khan's stable boy wouldn't have been ancestor of half the world's population, gengis was clearly too busy to **** enough so it had to be one of his aides.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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well yes, thats why the idea is to give everyone shelter and food. thats not greed though. thats surviving.

the biggest difference between humans and animals (between our awesome thumbs) is the ability to reason, to think. most of the things, most of violence are totally idiotic looking back at it and it stems from wrong sets of minds. my point is to try to diminish these wrong sets of mind
You seem to think that there is an unlimited supply of resources in the world, that just isn't the case. The only way to have a utopian society is if we can find a way to replicate resources at almost no cost. Since that doesn't seem like it will ever be possible, good luck with a utopian society..

Napoleon ruled Europe for years, Alexander ruled the known world, Genghis Khan ruled the known world, America essentially rules(d) the world, the Romans, need I go on? Violence accomplished all that for them. Violence is not a way to build lasting power, but it will build you power for your lifetime, which is all that person really cared about anyway, increasing their power.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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There will always be materialistic possessions, be they a patch of land you call home, a hut you live in or an ipod. A world without materialistic possessions is simply impossible. But even if we ignore material positions you would see greed in people's actions, where they go, what they do, the oppurtunities that present themselves, all ofthose things will show greed.



Well it obviously was for some. Otherwise gengis khan's stable boy wouldn't have been ancestor of half the world's population, gengis was clearly too busy to **** enough so it had to be one of his aides.
that is the question though: why is it impossible? Ghengis Khan went around cause possessions were important. why should it be though? why would Khan have to get so much land? just for the heck of it?

my question is why to people want power? there has to be a better reason than: well its just the way the cookie crumbles.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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that is the question though: why is it impossible? Ghengis Khan went around cause possessions were important. why should it be though? why would Khan have to get so much land? just for the heck of it?
Because greed and a lust for power is innate in humans. It wasn't a product of his society, it was a product of him being human.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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You seem to think that there is an unlimited supply of resources in the world, that just isn't the case. The only way to have a utopian society is if we can find a way to replicate resources at almost no cost. Since that doesn't seem like it will ever be possible, good luck with a utopian society..

Napoleon ruled Europe for years, Alexander ruled the known world, Genghis Khan ruled the known world, America essentially rules(d) the world, the Romans, need I go on? Violence accomplished all that for them. Violence is not a way to build lasting power, but it will build you power for your lifetime, which is all that person really cared about anyway, increasing their power.
i do not believe that. but if it was possible to assure food and shelter, i dont think there is really anymore greed out there.

lets just say: there is enough food and shelter for everyone. Would there be more greed?
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Because greed and a lust for power is innate in humans. It wasn't a product of his society, it was a product of him being human.
and thats the idea i dont get. society obviously didnt find a real answer for this question, so its just easy to say: its just the way it is, humans are like that and done. thats ********. Why not find a real answer? why are there humans that dont care for power at all, why are there humans that care so much about power? there has to be a better reason than: well its just like that
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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i do not believe that. but if it was possible to assure food and shelter, i dont think there is really anymore greed out there.

lets just say: there is enough food and shelter for everyone. Would there be more greed?
Yes, people will always want more food or a more comfortable shelter. The only way to eliminate violence is through unlimited resources, greed can never be eliminated.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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that is the question though: why is it impossible? Ghengis Khan went around cause possessions were important. why should it be though? why would Khan have to get so much land? just for the heck of it?
Power, influence, to change the world, who the **** knows why gengis went to war, if it was only to get stuff he wouldn't have gone that far because after china I'd imagine he had enough crap where if all he wanted was crap he'd be content. To dismiss violence entirely is foolish, it can certainly accomplish many goals other than gathering possessions, in fact I'll argue that violence and war is one of the worst and least efficient ways because of the simple destruction it causes, the resentment in conquered areas, etc.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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Yes, people will always want more food or a more comfortable shelter. The only way to eliminate violence is through unlimited resources, greed can never be eliminated.
this is ********. i eat till im full. why do i need more? i live in my house so i can survive, sleeping without getting wet. why would i need 15 houses
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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and thats the idea i dont get. society obviously didnt find a real answer for this question, so its just easy to say: its just the way it is, humans are like that and done. thats ********. Why not find a real answer? why are there humans that dont care for power at all, why are there humans that care so much about power? there has to be a better reason than: well its just like that
All humans care for power, every single one of them. They may not act like it, but thats because they don't know how to get the type of power they want. The real answer is that greed and power are hardwired into all animals, not just humans. You are searching for an answer that isn't there. The more we learn about mankind the more we find we have very little difference from other animals.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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i do not believe that. but if it was possible to assure food and shelter, i dont think there is really anymore greed out there.

lets just say: there is enough food and shelter for everyone. Would there be more greed?
There would still be greed, people would want comforts, people would want a bigger tv, a nicer car, a better shelter, tastier food, a new phone, a new stereo, *insert new technology here* you can't wipe out greed without first gaining absolutely unlimited resources and even then that might not be enough.

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and thats the idea i dont get. society obviously didnt find a real answer for this question, so its just easy to say: its just the way it is, humans are like that and done. thats ********. Why not find a real answer? why are there humans that dont care for power at all, why are there humans that care so much about power? there has to be a better reason than: well its just like that
I'm going with daddy issues, an oedipus complex or getting picked on as a kid. If you want to understand the drive for power that'll take serious psychological and neurological study that no one is currently privileged to.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Power, influence, to change the world, who the **** knows why gengis went to war, if it was only to get stuff he wouldn't have gone that far because after china I'd imagine he had enough crap where if all he wanted was crap he'd be content. To dismiss violence entirely is foolish, it can certainly accomplish many goals other than gathering possessions, in fact I'll argue that violence and war is one of the worst and least efficient ways because of the simple destruction it causes, the resentment in conquered areas, etc.
well there is nothing wrong with saying violence and war is one of the least efficient ways. i absolutely agree. but thats what i am saying, those guys had all these different options. if it was human nature, they wouldve naturally gone for that. why dont u though? i mean its human nature to be violent, that means u would think of war and violence as the best option
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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this is ********. i eat till im full. why do i need more? i live in my house so i can survive, sleeping without getting wet. why would i need 15 houses
You have a much too idealistic view of mankind, I envy you.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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All humans care for power, every single one of them. They may not act like it, but thats because they don't know how to get the type of power they want. The real answer is that greed and power are hardwired into all animals, not just humans. You are searching for an answer that isn't there. The more we learn about mankind the more we find we have very little difference from other animals.
Which is the entire foundation of anarcho-capitalist utopia I'm in favor of. Understanding that we are just animals with certain traits that have fueled our evolution the only possible utopia is one that is built off of human nature.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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There would still be greed, people would want comforts, people would want a bigger tv, a nicer car, a better shelter, tastier food, a new phone, a new stereo, *insert new technology here* you can't wipe out greed without first gaining absolutely unlimited resources and even then that might not be enough.
well then get a bigger one, but why not in turn let everyone have one? what is the benefit for urself if u have one and the others dont if they could. if u are able to invent a nicer car, then go for it, but why not then share it with society?


Quote:
I'm going with daddy issues, an oedipus complex or getting picked on as a kid. If you want to understand the drive for power that'll take serious psychological and neurological study that no one is currently privileged to.
doesnt that mean though its different for every person? its the way he was raised like those daddy issues or whatever. im not saying there are no people who are interested in power or whatever, but is it always necessary?


Quote:
All humans care for power, every single one of them.
this is a statement i need you to back up first. just throwing it out is games and fun but doesnt really help. there has to be a reason why someone thinks: hey having power is cool.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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You have a much too idealistic view of mankind, I envy you.
explain to me: why would i need more food if i am full
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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well there is nothing wrong with saying violence and war is one of the least efficient ways. i absolutely agree. but thats what i am saying, those guys had all these different options. if it was human nature, they wouldve naturally gone for that. why dont u though? i mean its human nature to be violent, that means u would think of war and violence as the best option
Just because war isn't the best way to get stuff doesn't mean it's a worthless option. If this were a political board you'd here me railing against war quite often, that doesn't mean war isn't the best option for some people to secure some of their goals. Gengis clearly wanted more than just possessions, he didn't go to war just because war is fun, he went to war for some reason, be it his own ego and legacy, or wanting to shape the world any of a billion other things he wanted power for, but what's clear is he wanted some sort of power and for him the best way was military action.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:24 PM    (permalink
someone447
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well there is nothing wrong with saying violence and war is one of the least efficient ways. i absolutely agree. but thats what i am saying, those guys had all these different options. if it was human nature, they wouldve naturally gone for that. why dont u though? i mean its human nature to be violent, that means u would think of war and violence as the best option
Violence is one of the MOST efficient ways of gaining power, however, it is also one of the most harmful. Look at any of the most powerful men in history, they have one thing in common, they accomplished it through violence.

War and violence is not the best answer for everyone, some people aren't good at it. Those people find other ways to get what they want. That is the beauty of mankind, our intellect allows us to achieve things in many different ways, violence just happens to be one of them. If you are good at war you go to war, if you are a smooth talker you will charm your way to power. Humans use their talents to achieve their goals. If your talent is violence you will use that without hesitation because "by any means necessary" is genetically wired into us.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Just because war isn't the best way to get stuff doesn't mean it's a worthless option. If this were a political board you'd here me railing against war quite often, that doesn't mean war isn't the best option for some people to secure some of their goals. Gengis clearly wanted more than just possessions, he didn't go to war just because war is fun, he went to war for some reason, be it his own ego and legacy, or wanting to shape the world any of a billion other things he wanted power for, but what's clear is he wanted some sort of power and for him the best way was military action.
okay, thats totally understandable. thats not what i am saying though. but the reason for him to chose those options was because of his goals. not because he is human.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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explain to me: why would i need more food if i am full
Because more food=power.

If you don't think power is important do an experiment. For the next week do whatever someone asks of you, don't ever state your opinion, just agree with what everyone else says. Completely disavow any sort of power in your life. Come back here and tell me how well that worked out for you.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:27 PM    (permalink
someone447
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okay, thats totally understandable. thats not what i am saying though. but the reason for him to chose those options was because of his goals. not because he is human.
His goals are because he is human...
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:28 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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Because more food=power.

If you don't think power is important do an experiment. For the next week do whatever someone asks of you, don't ever state your opinion, just agree with what everyone else says. Completely disavow any sort of power in your life. Come back here and tell me how well that worked out for you.
why is more food = more power if we are talking about a scenario where there is unlimited food?

your experiment is idiotic though, it doesnt even make sense. doing idiotic things i believe are wrong has nothing do to with power rather than being dumb.
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Old 05-04-2009, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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You have a much too idealistic view of mankind, I envy you.
ideas are what makes the world go around. One cannot be too idealistic, as long as one does not lose sight of the realisty in which these ideas are to be realised.

I'm a pretty idealistic guy, but I try hard not to forget that some things are pretty hard to change. There's nothing wrong with having ideas. Frankly people without ideas are uninteresting. If nobody thinks of anything new, how is anything ever going to change?
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