Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > The Locker Room > Off Topic

Off Topic Almost Anything Goes

View Poll Results: Who is your favorite philosopher(s)?
Ancient Philosophy (Aristotle, Plato) 13 19.40%
Scholasticism (St. Thomas Aquinas) 3 4.48%
Renaissance Humanism (Thomas More, Erasmus) 1 1.49%
Rationalism (Descartes, Voltaire, Kant) 18 26.87%
Empiricism, Social Contract (John Locke, David Hume) 11 16.42%
Social Materialism/Marxism (Karl Marx, Hegel) 6 8.96%
Existentialism (Kafka, Nietzsche) 7 10.45%
Post-Moderism/Structuralism (Derrida, Foucault, Nietzsche) 5 7.46%
Analytical Philosophy (Bertrand Russell, Wittgenstein) 1 1.49%
Structuralism (Levi-Strauss, Ferdinand de Saussure, Chomsky) 2 2.99%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2009, 07:07 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Americanzi
Posts: 15,267
Reputation: 1428349
iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Just in a general response, this gets back to my belief that the individual is not greater than society. Just because I believe something does not mean it is absolute in my opinion because I know that my beliefs are not perfect and that others will not agree with me.

So, imo, just because I think something is the best or highest ranking, I do not believe it's absolutely the best because it is not 100% consensual.
iowatreat54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:08 PM    (permalink
the decider13
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,172
Reputation: 39788
the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
Like I said before, the intent of the act can be solely for the benefit of others. However, in hindsight, the act can give the individual immaterial benefit. In the case of jumping on the grenade, in hind sight, many will view it as a heroic act, and in return, the individual's name and legacy will benefit from it.
Who has time to think that they need to jump on a grenade so that they have a heroic legacy?

I also find it kind of odd that you say there are no absolutes, yet you are saying that absolutely no one can be completely selfless. Just something I noticed, jumping in on the thread late.
__________________

Sig by the sigmaster BoneKrusher. Each one is a masterpiece
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaLLiN72 View Post
i wish NFLDC had something like "wall to wall" where we could see Brodeur and Job's conversations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Job View Post
NFLDC would be jizzing itself non-stop.
the decider13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:09 PM    (permalink
The Unseen
Team Leader
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: :3
Posts: 17,548
Reputation: 466188
The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

I'm not trying to butt in here, but isn't self-sacrifice based on the belief that the cause for which they die is the most important thing? Thus, in a way it is selfish for a person to sacrifice because they want their cause to continue, as opposed to the benefit of their continued existence in the lives of others. It is selfless from the common view that you do not want to die, but not everyone doesn't want to die. Depending on what view of the afterlife we're assuming, things could change. If you believe that you'll go to heaven and have virgins at your disposal if you blow yourself up, it's pretty selfish.

This whole thing is a bit about how things are defined. Otherwise, it's almost like debating in two different languages.

EDIT: I like to use alot of singular "they." Deal with it.
__________________

by BoneKrusher
Quote:
<DG> how metal unseen
Quote:
<TheUnseen> Drunken Canadian Bastard: There's an APS for that
The Unseen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:10 PM    (permalink
CJSchneider
Team Leader
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 17,760
Reputation: 4947671
CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
I never said it was impossible, just unlikely.
So you are saying it is possible.

And just for the record, I love to play the devil's advocate (shame on me) sometimes. It's usually when people start discussing philosophy that I do so. Please know I have no intention of losing anyone's respect (assuming I have it) or making enemies. As proof. my wife just offered me a bowl of ice-cream, that I am going to log off and go eat with extremely selfish intentions.
__________________




2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack
CJSchneider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:11 PM    (permalink
Brent
TomTom Out
Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 25,919
Reputation: 4784354
Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
So you are saying it is possible
Many things are.
__________________

Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:12 PM    (permalink
CJSchneider
Team Leader
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 17,760
Reputation: 4947671
CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.CJSchneider is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unseen View Post
I'm not trying to butt in here, but isn't self-sacrifice based on the belief that the cause for which they die is the most important thing? Thus, in a way it is selfish for a person to sacrifice because they want their cause to continue, as opposed to the benefit of their continued existence in the lives of others. It is selfless from the common view that you do not want to die, but not everyone doesn't want to die. Depending on what view of the afterlife we're assuming, things could change. If you believe that you'll go to heaven and have virgins at your disposal if you blow yourself up, it's pretty selfish.

This whole thing is a bit about how things are defined. Otherwise, it's almost like debating in two different languages.

EDIT: I like to use alot of singular "they." Deal with it.
You just cause a black-hole to form next to my bowl of ice-cream.
__________________




2 C 5:6-8 Jakob Murphy aka themaninblack
CJSchneider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:12 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
The Professor (Hall of Famer)
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 36,298
Reputation: 2341466
bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the decider13 View Post
Who has time to think that they need to jump on a grenade so that they have a heroic legacy?
It's not a spur of the moment decision. On average, people that join the army are going to be more likely to believe in the concept of self-sarcifice bringing about individual honor.
__________________


Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.
bearsfan_51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:13 PM    (permalink
The Unseen
Team Leader
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: :3
Posts: 17,548
Reputation: 466188
The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJSchneider View Post
You just cause a black-hole to form next to my bowl of ice-cream.
If it's a wormhole, send me some plz
__________________

by BoneKrusher
Quote:
<DG> how metal unseen
Quote:
<TheUnseen> Drunken Canadian Bastard: There's an APS for that
The Unseen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:15 PM    (permalink
iowatreat54
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Americanzi
Posts: 15,267
Reputation: 1428349
iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.iowatreat54 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the decider13 View Post
Who has time to think that they need to jump on a grenade so that they have a heroic legacy?

I also find it kind of odd that you say there are no absolutes, yet you are saying that absolutely no one can be completely selfless. Just something I noticed, jumping in on the thread late.
I understand that I'm essentially confusing prolly everyone with my views.

Where some see me as saying that I personally say something is most honorable or there is 'absolutely' no such thing as selflessness as dealing in absolutes, I do not. While my views may appear to deal in absolutes, I believe that since others disagree with me that the general idea is not an absolute. So where I believe there is no absolutes, and CJ does, the whole idea of absolutes, imo, is not absolute. I know, that is ridiculously confusing.

I guess to try and put it simply, I'll concede that if you break down the components of an idea, there can technically be absolutes. However, I do not believe in looking at individual parts separately, but the total idea/result as a whole. And in looking at the overall idea, I believe there is no absolutes.
iowatreat54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:16 PM    (permalink
Manic Depressant
Rookie
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 357
Reputation: 3194
Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
You thought wrong. That's pretty naive honestly.
I'm actually wondering about this though, so maybe you could provide an example or further elaboration. I'm from Canada and at least from my knowledge every Canadian citizen has the same legal rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
You don't think that Forbes magazine, owned by Steve Forbes, grandson of B.C. Forbes, wouldn't have a bit of a bias? Forbes is the lapdog of capitalism. They actually call themselves the "capitalist tool." That would be like me providing the Communist Manifesto to argue the capitalism is bad.
I'm not sure what you're insuiating here. I don't think Forbes could even be biased about a statistic like that. It's not like they're preaching capitalism in that article. They're just stating a quantifiable fact: that 2/3rds of billionaires are self-made. I'm sure if you looked through everybody on the list and checked into their backgrounds, you could confirm it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
I'm not doubting the cases of individual initiative. But I do severely question the lack of bias from Forbes magazine about the virtues of capitalism. It's also a bit arbitrary to point to a few individuals to argue what is a much broader argument, but I suppose that is part of the disconnect.
I thought you were making the point that people who are monetarily successful are because they were born into it or some other reason, not because of their individual merits. I'm arguing the opposite, saying that most people who have had monetary success are because of their individual merits.

The statisics I brought up aren't about individuals (like say Oprah who is an example of somebody making their fortune by themselves), they're about society as a whole. 80% of millioniares, and 2/3rds of billionaires are self-made, meaning the majority achieved that success due to their own individual merit. At least that's my interpretation of those statistics.
Manic Depressant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:18 PM    (permalink
Addict
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Yurop
Posts: 11,038
Reputation: 230303
Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the decider13 View Post
Who has time to think that they need to jump on a grenade so that they have a heroic legacy?

I also find it kind of odd that you say there are no absolutes, yet you are saying that absolutely no one can be completely selfless. Just something I noticed, jumping in on the thread late.
like I said earlier, it's hard to explain absolutism without falling into absolutes (ironic). But it does make sense, ti's the belief that nothing is black or white, but everything is in between those two. Grey.
__________________

Sig by Fenikz

I remember NFLDC
don't tell anyone, but Charlie Casserly is a dope fiend
Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:20 PM    (permalink
WMD
Suck it Metsox
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Flint, Michigan
Posts: 25,961
Reputation: 3309248
WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WMD is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Someone should summarize all of these philosophies into one sentence so I can pick one. I'm somewhat interested now but unfortunately didn't care enough in high school to learn about this stuff.
__________________
WMD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:25 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
The Professor (Hall of Famer)
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 36,298
Reputation: 2341466
bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Depressant View Post
I'm actually wondering about this though, so maybe you could provide an example or further elaboration. I'm from Canada and at least from my knowledge every Canadian citizen has the same legal rights.
As Brent said, access to legal resourses, the very nature of the definition of "blue collar" vs. "white collar" crimes, etc. All of these things will drastically alter the way in which one encourters the legal system. The terms of the law are only a small part of it, and even that is never completely equal.


Quote:
I'm not sure what you're insuiating here. I don't think Forbes could even be biased about a statistic like that. It's not like they're preaching capitalism in that article.
Quote:
Almost two-thirds of the world's 946 billionaires made their fortunes from scratch, relying on grit and determination.
I would consider that total bias. So people that aren't rich lack grit and determination? All you have to do in order to acquire wealth is try hard? C'mon......


It's also worth noting, oddly enough, that most of the "self-made" people they mentioned are staunchly liberal, which must say something about their attitude about the value of society and giving back to it.[/quote]

Quote:
I thought you were making the point that people who are monetarily successful are because they were born into it or some other reason, not because of their individual merits. I'm arguing the opposite, saying that most people who have had monetary success are because of their individual merits.
Not exactly. What I was arguing, or trying to argue, is that merit is not based primarily upon individual atributes. Simply showing individual success is only part of the equation. You would then have to show each case of people who aren't millionaires and why. The OP would argue it's because they are morons. I disagree.
__________________


Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.
bearsfan_51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:25 PM    (permalink
the decider13
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 3,172
Reputation: 39788
the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.the decider13 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
It's not a spur of the moment decision. On average, people that join the army are going to be more likely to believe in the concept of self-sarcifice bringing about individual honor.
Sure, a lot of people do join in the idea that it is honerable. But it seems like people are saying that everyone who joins and gives up their life is doing it for selfish reasons. Just seems ironic for how often I read "there is no absolutes"

What about people who save someone in a situation that isn't a war, but just in every day life? Like someone driving down the street sees a house on fire, gets out of the car, runs inside and saves someone inside. Did the guy sit in his car and think "Oh man, people are gonna think I'm a hero if I go in there"

It might be a little idealistic on my part, but I like to believe that there are people out there that are willing to sacrifice themselves for the better of other people.
__________________

Sig by the sigmaster BoneKrusher. Each one is a masterpiece
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaLLiN72 View Post
i wish NFLDC had something like "wall to wall" where we could see Brodeur and Job's conversations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Job View Post
NFLDC would be jizzing itself non-stop.
the decider13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:25 PM    (permalink
Addict
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Yurop
Posts: 11,038
Reputation: 230303
Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lions WMD View Post
Someone should summarize all of these philosophies into one sentence so I can pick one. I'm somewhat interested now but unfortunately didn't care enough in high school to learn about this stuff.
You should probably try wikipedia, if one of us was to summarize it chances are there's a fair amount of bias.
__________________

Sig by Fenikz

I remember NFLDC
don't tell anyone, but Charlie Casserly is a dope fiend
Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:28 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
The Professor (Hall of Famer)
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 36,298
Reputation: 2341466
bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Addict View Post
You should probably try wikipedia, if one of us was to summarize it chances are there's a fair amount of bias.
Haha....the thought of wikipedia being the source without bias....
__________________


Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.
bearsfan_51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:28 PM    (permalink
The Unseen
Team Leader
Icon
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: :3
Posts: 17,548
Reputation: 466188
The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.The Unseen is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lions WMD View Post
Someone should summarize all of these philosophies into one sentence so I can pick one. I'm somewhat interested now but unfortunately didn't care enough in high school to learn about this stuff.
Well...it can't be done. I wasn't completely joking when I mentioned Wikipedia. Never use it as a source, but if you want a quick rundown of a well-known topic, it's doable.

Also, some philosopher at a different board I go to recommends this: http://plato.stanford.edu/. I never looked into it, but whatever, I'm posting it.

EDIT: haha, got beaten on the Wikipedia punch
__________________

by BoneKrusher
Quote:
<DG> how metal unseen
Quote:
<TheUnseen> Drunken Canadian Bastard: There's an APS for that
The Unseen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:29 PM    (permalink
Manic Depressant
Rookie
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 357
Reputation: 3194
Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Not exactly. What I was arguing, or trying to argue, is that merit is not based primarily upon individual atributes. Simply showing individual success is only part of the equation. You would then have to show each case of people who aren't millionaires and why. The OP would argue it's because they are morons. I disagree.
I guess I got confused when you said this:

Quote:
The vast VAST majority of people who succeed in this world do so to a very small degree because of their individual talents.
I personally think that individual merit is more than a "very small degree" and I think the statistics I showed back that up.
Manic Depressant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:30 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
The Professor (Hall of Famer)
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 36,298
Reputation: 2341466
bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by the decider13 View Post
Sure, a lot of people do join in the idea that it is honerable. But it seems like people are saying that everyone who joins and gives up their life is doing it for selfish reasons. Just seems ironic for how often I read "there is no absolutes"

What about people who save someone in a situation that isn't a war, but just in every day life? Like someone driving down the street sees a house on fire, gets out of the car, runs inside and saves someone inside. Did the guy sit in his car and think "Oh man, people are gonna think I'm a hero if I go in there"

It might be a little idealistic on my part, but I like to believe that there are people out there that are willing to sacrifice themselves for the better of other people.
Hard to say, I'm not really part of that debate.

I agree that there is a seeming contradiction here, but I think a lot of it has to do with the term "honor," which is a complete construction. It's hard to debate terms which aren't real, whether you believe in absolutes or not.
__________________


Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.
bearsfan_51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:31 PM    (permalink
Brent
TomTom Out
Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 25,919
Reputation: 4784354
Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Brent is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unseen View Post
That's a good source. One of my profs mentioned it as a sort of quick-reference.
__________________

Pick the Winners Champion 2008 | 2011
Brent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:32 PM    (permalink
Addict
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Yurop
Posts: 11,038
Reputation: 230303
Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
Haha....the thought of wikipedia being the source without bias....
the way I see it, we here all have an opinion, a favourite which we'll describe to come out much more sane than the other options. Yes wikipidia is bias, but I think since the articles about these philosophies are written by people who agree with it, at least it's a fair bias across the board.
__________________

Sig by Fenikz

I remember NFLDC
don't tell anyone, but Charlie Casserly is a dope fiend
Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:32 PM    (permalink
bearsfan_51
The Professor (Hall of Famer)
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Posts: 36,298
Reputation: 2341466
bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bearsfan_51 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Depressant View Post
I guess I got confused when you said this:



I personally think that individual merit is more than a "very small degree" and I think the statistics I showed back that up.
That doesn't contradict what I said. This is a circular argument though.

If you like those statistics and find value in them, by all means.
__________________


Nobody cares about your stupid fantasy team.
bearsfan_51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:33 PM    (permalink
Manic Depressant
Rookie
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 357
Reputation: 3194
Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.Manic Depressant could make a wolverine purr.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bearsfan_51 View Post
That doesn't contradict what I said. This is a circular argument though.
Well you are saying that a person's individual merit has little to do with their success. You think it's a result of the system. I disagree and I think that individual merit is much more important, at least if we're talking about developed nations.
Manic Depressant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:41 PM    (permalink
Mr. Hero
Veteran
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: pissed I had to shave my beard to get a job.
Posts: 1,523
Reputation: 5784
Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.Mr. Hero wakes up in the morning and pisses excellence.
Default

This is going to be giant so feel free to skip from section to section, I'll try to keep my thoughts separated and specified but as i've already mentioned I'm really beat right now and procrastinating til it's late enough to pass out again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent View Post
Yes, I was going to mention one of the ideas from the book, where acting altruistically is beneficial not only to others in the group but also to ourselves. You can see this not only in early human history (hunter-gatherers) but with the other 4 apes in the animal kingdom. Hell, even early agrarian societies were sharing everything.


If I had no problem with having a large sig, this quote would be in there.
I see that argument, however that's not true altruism that you are describing. My point isn't that acting for the good of others is inherently bad for the individual, it is simply that people working together should only occur when the individuals involved perceive it to be in their interest, that is how hunter-gatherer societies worked, not because everyone wanted everyone else to eat, but because ensuring that the group had food for everyone to eat also ensured that each individual had food to eat and with the stronger natural predators a hunter-gatherer setting off on his own would surely have perished before successfully hunting down a similarly individualistic women to reproduce and found a family before hoping that their children are able to successful find other independent families to mate with. So while I understand why some find this sort of behavior to be evidence of the benefits of altruism I feel that these actions that we interpret as "altruistic" are actually selfish actions just with a more long term perspective, this long term perspective is something very important to me and something I'll probably go into more detail with shortly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Manic Depressant View Post
This discussion is pretty interesting. Excuse me if I sound ignorant because my only philosophy training is a couple university courses which I slept through.

I'm just wondering about the bolded part of your statement. Could you go into more detail about why you believe this because intuitively it seems to be the exact opposite for me.
The argument usual has to do with the tremendous influence of surrounding conditions while growing up and how this affects people both in terms of the opportunities presented to individuals and the adult that is formed by growing up in less favorable environments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iowatreat54 View Post
Just in a general response, this gets back to my belief that the individual is not greater than society. Just because I believe something does not mean it is absolute in my opinion because I know that my beliefs are not perfect and that others will not agree with me.

So, imo, just because I think something is the best or highest ranking, I do not believe it's absolutely the best because it is not 100% consensual.
Here is probably where our disagreements come from. My belief is that I have no choice but to trust myself, since I can't understand all the cause and effect macinations that lead people to their opinions, nor do I really inhabit the same world since I believe none of us experience and perceive absolute truth thus everyone's experience on this earth is unique to themselves, be it a difference because I'm half blind or be it because as a child I saw socialist totalitarianism go wrong, my world is twinged by my sense and my own personal filters thus while my beliefs are in large part a culmination of many other people's beliefs they are melted together to form my beliefs for my world. So to me an opinion that you truly hold is an absolute to oneself, now this is not a universal absolute, since I don't think human's can rely experience such a thing, so I agree with you there, I think however it is an absolute for your life and unfortunately we are all stuck in our own lives for now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Unseen View Post
I'm not trying to butt in here, but isn't self-sacrifice based on the belief that the cause for which they die is the most important thing? Thus, in a way it is selfish for a person to sacrifice because they want their cause to continue, as opposed to the benefit of their continued existence in the lives of others. It is selfless from the common view that you do not want to die, but not everyone doesn't want to die. Depending on what view of the afterlife we're assuming, things could change. If you believe that you'll go to heaven and have virgins at your disposal if you blow yourself up, it's pretty selfish.

This whole thing is a bit about how things are defined. Otherwise, it's almost like debating in two different languages.

EDIT: I like to use alot of singular "they." Deal with it.

Thank you for going into this for me. I was going to make a case along those lines to CJS but I think you've made the point well enough to spare me that additional typing.

Hope that wasn't too discombobulated and incomprehensible. I'll definitely try and explain any confusion about this post. Somehow that came out a lot shorter than I thought, hope I didn't forget to copy and paste like half of it.

Last edited by Mr. Hero : 05-03-2009 at 07:44 PM.
Mr. Hero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2009, 07:52 PM    (permalink
Addict
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Yurop
Posts: 11,038
Reputation: 230303
Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Addict is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

completely unrelated i'm sorry, but...

__________________

Sig by Fenikz

I remember NFLDC
don't tell anyone, but Charlie Casserly is a dope fiend
Addict is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.