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Old 01-18-2010, 10:04 AM    (permalink
BaLLiN
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Only problem is we still need a DT, and i dont really like Price, Dan Williams in the 2nd would be good value, Arthur Jones seems alright (not high on him), Vince Oghobasse's stock has fallen drastically, wouldnt mind him he was doubled alot and still made some impact in games.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Right now this is what I want:

1.(19-25) Earl Thomas SS/FS Texas *Gain 2nd*
2.(37-42) Brandon Spikes MLB Florida *Lose 4th*
2. Ryan Matthews RB Fresno
3. Matt Tennant C/OG Boston College
5. Vince Oghobasse DT Duke
6. Rashawn Jackson FB Virginia
7. Some guy who will turn into a pro bowler
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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Ballin' trades like that don't happen all too often, Thomas isn't a goodfit, and we don't need a RB, especially not that early.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Ballin' trades like that don't happen all too often, Thomas isn't a goodfit, and we don't need a RB, especially not that early.
i know, i know, i can only dream :) Thomas seems like Michael Johnson + instincts, +tackling ability, + athleticism. With Jacobs being injured all the time, Andre Brown coming back after an ACL, and Bradshaw not being an All down back, Matthews would be great IMO.
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Old 01-18-2010, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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i know, i know, i can only dream :) Thomas seems like Michael Johnson + instincts, +tackling ability, + athleticism. With Jacobs being injured all the time, Andre Brown coming back after an ACL, and Bradshaw not being an All down back, Matthews would be great IMO.
idk, I think Jacobs, Bradshaw, Brown are fine as a trio. They've all got injury problems, but I don't think that warrants taking a RB at round 2.
And I'm just not a Thomas fan. Maybe he'll grow on me, but I am not a fan. I really am not excited about any of our potential guys. Actually, I'm in the Taylor Mays boat as of right now.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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idk, I think Jacobs, Bradshaw, Brown are fine as a trio. They've all got injury problems, but I don't think that warrants taking a RB at round 2.
And I'm just not a Thomas fan. Maybe he'll grow on me, but I am not a fan. I really am not excited about any of our potential guys. Actually, I'm in the Taylor Mays boat as of right now.
Personally I wouldn't mind Mays or Thomas, and I'm guessing that one of those two may very well be our pick. If you believe the reports though the Raiders are infatuated with Mays which is no surprise.

I think Thomas would fit perfectly with us too. He's a true free safety who Fewell will be able to mold into a huge ball hawk. The idea that Kenny can't play strong safety or playing their will take away from his ability is silly. Kenny is an excellent tackler and a guy who has huge range.

I think Thomas and Phillips (assuming everything checks out health wise) would be a prolific safety tandem. I mean we all know Kenny has tremendous range at safety and if you combine that with Thomas' impressive range as well we'll be able to do some really crazy things on defense.

Mays wouldn't be bad either as he's got great range too, but the problem with him is I feel like he's got big time bust potential and I also feel like he would kind of fit the 'old' mold of Giants DB's. Guys who are okay at what they do and solid in coverage but are never creating turnovers or holding onto the football when they get a chance to make a play.

Now some of that is scheme related, but a lot of it is the fact we've never had big time playmakers in the secondary.
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Old 01-18-2010, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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What Shaun Williams wasn't a big playmaking safety? :)
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Really i feel we dont have that guy in the secondary that you think twice before throwing the ball deep. Webster is a great cover guy, Thomas is getting there, and Ross i thought really could be that, but safety is where you want that person to be.

Thomas could be that guy, Kenny, his hands aren't all too great, but he is a terrific safety and player.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Call me crazy, but I think Dan Williams or Mays/Thomas is going to be the pick.

Think about it, we're running some form of Cover 2. Whether is a true Tampa 2 or a modified version, a lot of the principles will be in play with our defense.

Now if thats the case, you can rule out McClain and Spikes. Neither of these guys are Tampa 2 linebackers.

You can go after a safety, afterall the Tampa 2 needs studs at safety to work. If we don't go safety, Dan Williams fits perfectly in a Tampa 2 at nose for us.

The guy played for Monte Kiffin and thrived in the scheme. So im assuming the same dline principles will apply to our defense, and Williams is a guy you can plug in and help fix our run stuffing issues up front.

Now with the whole Tampa 2 thing, we may go after a LB in FA like DeMeco Ryans. He fits the leadership role, and he fits the Tampa 2 mold a lot better than McClain or Spikes.

Now if it was up to me we wouldn't do any of this, but it is what it is. You gotta draft players that fit the scheme, and as long as we're running this, we have to draft for it.

Now I know about all the articles stating he'll adjust, that he won't run a true Tampa 2 and blah blah blah. My thing is this: I'll believe it when I see it. You can't learn under the Tampa 2 your whole career then just change your scheme up like a flip of a switch. You are what you are. You do what you know.

Thats how it works.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:50 PM    (permalink
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Except we really have no idea what type of defense he's going to run. You're assuming it's Tampa 2 but from what a lot of people have said it sounds like he wasn't really running the Tampa 2 in Buffalo. I mean if he was..I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have Paul Posluszny playing middle linebacker.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Here is my latest mock draft/offseason

We now know the new DC and have some ideas of the scheme.

Assuming no major free agency signings and the RFAs return.


Positional Moves
1. William Beatty to LT, Diehl to LG, Seubert to bench

2. Aaron Ross to FS.
Fewell likes to use a single deep FS and lots of pressure. Ross has been training at safety last season and would be a good sit as a single deep FS (similar to what the Bills have done with Jairus Byrd and the Eagles did with Victor Harris (among others); Ross is physical and a good tackler plus we are likely to develop any rookie behind veteran starters. Moving Ross to FS would allow Phillips to play closer to the action and freedom to be used as more of a playmaker.


Draft

With no clear target - trade down in the first for an extra 2nd round pick
(possibly to New England to let them pick Dez Bryant)

1. DT Dan Williams, Tennessee (6-3, 327, 5.20)
Williams is a quick, powerfull DT to add to our rotation

2a. FS Nate Allen, South Florida (6-2, 205, 4.50)
Allen is quality centerfielder with good instincts, range and coverage skills.

2b. CB Brandon Ghee, Wake Forest (6-0, 190, 4.45)
Ghee is a quality all round CB, who is physical, fast and has good ball skills. He also adds speed at CB which Fewell may prefer.

3. MLB Pat Angerer, Iowa (6-1, 235, 4.50)
Angerer is a quality MLB who is physical, instinctive, with great speed, coverage skills and leadership.
He also fits the more mobile MLB not unlike Pozlunzy. Angerer is a good compliment to Goff.

4. OLB A.J. Edds, Iowa (6-4, 244, 4.70)
Edds is a quality OLB who could likely play any of our LB spots. He is mobile, instinctive and has good coverage skills.
I know this is two Iowa LBs, but they are both great fits and good value.

5. DE Alex Carrington, Arkansas State (6-5, 284, 4.80)
Carrington is a big, fast DE prospect with ability to get to the QB. He would be a good fit developing behind Tuck at LDE.

6. QB John Skelton, Fordham (6-5, 258, 4.90)
Skelton is a talented QB prospect. If Carr leaves, we will need another QB. Bhomar ans Skelton would be a good tandem going forward.

7. P Zoltan Mesko, Michigan (6-5, 231, 4.75)
If Feagles leaves we need a punter and Mesko is the best of this year's group


Possible Roster

Offense (25)

Quarterback (3) - Eli Manning, Rhett Bhomar, John Skelton

Wide Receiver (6) - Steve Smith, Hakeem Nicks, Mario Manningham, Ramsees Barden, Domenik Hixon, Derek Hagan

Tight End (3) - Kevin Boss, Travis Beckum, Bear Pascoe/Darcy Johnson

Running Back (4) - Brandon Jacobs, Ahmad Bradshaw, Aaron Brown, Gatrell Johnson/DJ Ware

Full Back (1) - Madison Hedgecock

Left Tackle (1) - William Beatty

Right Tackle (2) - Kareem McKenzie, Adam Koets

Left Guard (1) - David Diehl

Right Guard (2) - Chris Snee, Kevin Boothe

Centre (2) - Shaun O'Hara, Rich Seubert


Defense (25)

Left Defensive End (2) - Justin Tuck, Alex Carrington/Dave Tollefson

Right Defensive End (2) - Osi Umenyiora, Matthias Kiwanuka

Under Tackle (2) - Barry Cofield, Jay Alford

Nose Tackle (2) - Chris Canty, Dan Willians

Strong Linebacker (2) - Clint Sintim, Bryan Kehl

Middle Linebacker (2) - Jonathan Goff, Pat Angerer

Weak Linebacker (3) - Michael Boley, AJ Edds, Chase Blackburn/Gerris Wilkinson

Cornerback (5) - Corey Webster, Terrell Thomas, Brandon Ghee, Bruce Johnson, Kevin Dockery/DJ Johnson/Vince Anderson

Strong Safety (3) - Kenny Phillips, Michael Johnson, Aaron Rouse

Free Safety (2) - Aaron Ross, Nate Allen


Special Teams (3)

Kicker (1) - Lawrence Tynes

Punter (1) - Zoltan Mesko

Long Snapper (1) - Zak DeOssie



any thoughts?

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Old 01-18-2010, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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Thats right, we don't have a true idea of what he'll run. Thats why I'm assuming it will have a lot of Tampa 2 principles based on his background as a coach.

He's been coaching under Tampa 2 guys his whole career. When you grow as a coach, you learn a system, believe in the system, and teach that system. You can't just learn under a Tampa 2 your whole career then just scrap all of that, and go with a different system you never coached before and assume you'll be successful at it.

This is my guess. He's going to run a lot of man coverages with 2 deep shells, and blitzes out of Cover 2 shells. He'll basically run what Leslie Frazier runs in Minny. A blitzing Cover 2.

Regardless however, certain principles will apply.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:02 PM    (permalink
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Except we really have no idea what type of defense he's going to run. You're assuming it's Tampa 2 but from what a lot of people have said it sounds like he wasn't really running the Tampa 2 in Buffalo. I mean if he was..I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have Paul Posluszny playing middle linebacker.
I don't think we will use a Tampa 2

I expect we will use alot of single deep safety (much like Ko Simpson and Jairus Byrd) , and alot of pressure. This means the SS will be used closer to the action more as a playmaker (like Whitner). In this system Phillips would be a great fit at SS imho.

Looking at the Bills LBs they have tended to be solid guys with good mobility, but certainly not Tampa 2 style guys. Having said that, Polunzy does have decent underneath coverage ability, so we likely will look to upgrade there.
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Old 01-18-2010, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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He's been coaching under Tampa 2 guys his whole career. When you grow as a coach, you learn a system, believe in the system, and teach that system. You can't just learn under a Tampa 2 your whole career then just scrap all of that, and go with a different system you never coached before and assume you'll be successful at it.
Coughlin didn't run a Tampa 2 in Jacksonville and Jauron didn't run one in Buffalo.
(I actually believe Jauron's system in buffalo was similar to what TC had in Jacksonville)

In fact the only Tampa 2 Fewell has been in has been under Lovie Smith (St Louis/Chicago).

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Old 01-19-2010, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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Ive been looking at some Spikes and McClain footage, and boy, I really don't see how McClain and Spikes are so far apart that McClain is considered a top 10 guy and Spikes is an early 2nd guy.

I have them rated very close for now until i see more tape. Spikes is actually nastier in the phonebooth, plays with a lower center of gravity, and it at least feels like he plays faster.

He's more disruptive than McClain. McClain is a little more sound, but plays tall and tackles tall. He's not nearly as fast as ppl think either. He's going to run a 4.8 at the combine unless he sheds weight.

McClain is smarter and plays coverage concepts better, although he's not a world beater in coverage either bc of his speed.

I have them very close right now. Part of me wants to say I like Spikes more, but I won't say it yet. I need to see more.
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Old 01-19-2010, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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BBD-

I can't stress to you enough, Fewell did not run a lot of Tampa 2 at Buffalo, especially in 2009 and especially after Jauron left.
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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I actually think other guys would be quite good as MLB options, including Pat Angerer, Sean Lee and AJ Edds.

Don't get me wrong Spikes and McClain are good prospects, but there are other guys who can do the job well and will likely be better value.
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Old 01-19-2010, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Ive been looking at some Spikes and McClain footage, and boy, I really don't see how McClain and Spikes are so far apart that McClain is considered a top 10 guy and Spikes is an early 2nd guy.

Been saying this for awhile, you and i agreed on this earlier, Spikes is my target at the top end of round two, we need to make a move for him. We didnt get Rey last year, Spikes needs to be on our team.

I have them rated very close for now until i see more tape. Spikes is actually nastier in the phonebooth, plays with a lower center of gravity, and it at least feels like he plays faster.

i dont think he's faster. He's sure more nasty and stout, feels like he's best in stopping the run in the middle.

He's more disruptive than McClain. McClain is a little more sound, but plays tall and tackles tall. He's not nearly as fast as ppl think either. He's going to run a 4.8 at the combine unless he sheds weight.

McClain is smarter and plays coverage concepts better, although he's not a world beater in coverage either bc of his speed.

I have them very close right now. Part of me wants to say I like Spikes more, but I won't say it yet. I need to see more.

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Old 01-20-2010, 05:14 AM    (permalink
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I'm close. I'm close to saying it. Check out my thread in the draft discussion regarding Spikes vs McClain. I pretty much spell out my feelings in there.

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BBD-

I can't stress to you enough, Fewell did not run a lot of Tampa 2 at Buffalo, especially in 2009 and especially after Jauron left.
I understand that now, but we still don't know what kind of LBs he prefers. If I were to guess, he would like more athletic guys who can go sideline to sideline, so if thats the case, you have to question whether we would go after a guy like McClain or Spikes who doesn't exactly fit the profile. There will be changes to our defense, I doubt he runs the same exact system that Spags brought to NY. So we have to keep that in mind when evaluating players.

The truth is, we really have no idea what kind of players he prefers because we really don't know a thing about what he wants to run with our defense. So its all just speculation on all our parts. I'm just bringing up conversation since its the offseason and we have nothing better to do when discussing the Giants.
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:28 AM    (permalink
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I am not so sure about Spikes or McClain as options for the Giants.

I think Spikes will go at the top of the 2nd and McClain top 10

basically McClain will be gone too early and there are a lot of better options at 15 than Spikes who would be a reach imho.

I am also not too sure about their style, we already have a young thumper (albeit not as talented) in Goff.

I just think we need more coverage from MLB, that has been a big problem for some time.

But as you say, we don't know what style of scheme we will use until preseason/training camp, but we should get some insight in free agency as to the the general type of system Fewell, Coughlin and Reese have in mind

I think someone like Angerer or Lee is a better fit and much better value

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Old 01-20-2010, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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I understand that now, but we still don't know what kind of LBs he prefers. If I were to guess, he would like more athletic guys who can go sideline to sideline, so if thats the case, you have to question whether we would go after a guy like McClain or Spikes who doesn't exactly fit the profile. There will be changes to our defense, I doubt he runs the same exact system that Spags brought to NY. So we have to keep that in mind when evaluating players.

The truth is, we really have no idea what kind of players he prefers because we really don't know a thing about what he wants to run with our defense. So its all just speculation on all our parts. I'm just bringing up conversation since its the offseason and we have nothing better to do when discussing the Giants.

McClain has range, Jon Beason-type range. When he gets going in space, he has the gazelle strides that cover a lot of ground. Spikes is a good athlete as well, but I don't see the speed in him that McClain has in space. I really don't like Spikes as a top 45 player, but I'm not close to being done with all of the grades so that remains to be seen. McClain will not grade out as high as Patrick Willis, but he should be top 15.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:05 AM    (permalink
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There are always top 10 guys that fall in to the middle of the first round because of the freaks that impress at the combine and are too tempting for certain coaches and GMs. Also there can be a QB or two that breaks in to the top 10 based on a team's desperation. Last year's example? My #6 player overall Brian Cushing who got taken at #15 by Houston.

Who can be that guy this year? I think Gerald McCoy, Sergio Kindle, or Anthony Davis could drop to that spot this year. All three will be top 10 guys on my board in all likelihood.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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I don't think Anthony Davis will fall to us. He's going to end up the #1 or #2 OT. Also, McCoy is probably going Top 7 since he rates close to or just as high as Suh. Kindle I could definitely see falling and he would be an interesting fit for us. It would allow us to move Sintim back to De and give us 2 of the most athletic OLB's in the NFL.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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I don't think Anthony Davis will fall to us. He's going to end up the #1 or #2 OT. Also, McCoy is probably going Top 7 since he rates close to or just as high as Suh. Kindle I could definitely see falling and he would be an interesting fit for us. It would allow us to move Sintim back to De and give us 2 of the most athletic OLB's in the NFL.
Its too early to give confident projections all most guys. McCoy...I like him as much as anyone but there are things about his game that can remind some of Glenn Dorsey. A guy that can get overwhelmed physically in certain roles.

Davis is my #1 OT and will remain there. But some people I respect tell me Okung is getting more love than any of the OTs did last year. Bruce Campbell has the upside that could get him in to the top 10, thus Davis could slip out.

And instead of moving Sintim to DE where he would be undersized, I'd like to see what he could do at MLB. And that does not come out of left field. Al Groh has go on record saying it would be his best position in the NFL and I think there is something to that. Very smart, has athletic ability, always flowing to the action and he gets off blocks well. Just a thought to consider.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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I did not think of moving Sintim to MLB and it would certainly be an experiment. He has the athletic ability to make the move but I don't think this coachin staff will be that bold to make the move.

Davis upside is as high as anyone in the draft including Campbell. He is going to be the youngest player in the NFL as soon as he gets drafted which a lot of teams are going to like.
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