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View Poll Results: Who is going to win the NFC North in 2009?
Minnesota Vikings 26 41.94%
Chicago Bears 17 27.42%
Green Bay Packers 15 24.19%
Detroit Lions 4 6.45%
Voters: 62. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-11-2009, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Gay Ork Wang View Post
thats because when u jump from 0 to 10 u improved more than teams that improve from 20 to 22. Still makes u a lot inferior. seriously how where the lions supposed to get worse? lose all Preseason games?

i cant believe that there is a Lions fan out there saying people underestimate the lions after a winless season
That's funny...

I thought we were talking about 2009...

You know...not 2008.
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Old 05-11-2009, 11:26 AM    (permalink
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That's funny...

I thought we were talking about 2009...

You know...not 2008.
we are. but u gotta realize u know, u didnt get a new team
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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we are. but u gotta realize u know, u didnt get a new team
Yes we did. Our offensive philosophy is different. Our defensive philosophy is completely different. Our starting day roster will be loaded with new faces.

In what way isn't this a new team?

If you take the Pittsburgh Steelers roster and you force their defensive to play a Tampa 2 and you force their offense to play in a spread - that team is different.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:33 PM    (permalink
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we are. but u gotta realize u know, u didnt get a new team
The 0-16 team was pretty much gutted. I would call 11 new starters(CB1,CB2,FS,MLB,SLB,NT,UT,LG,TE,FB,WR2) plus a new nickel corner, a new slot WR, a new KR/PR with a new coaching staff is pretty much a new team. Well its a half of a new team keeping the other half of Detroit that is worth keeping in Calvin,Gosder in year 2,Kevin Smith in year 2 ,Ernie Sims with tremendous help around him,Cliff Avril(in year 2),DeWayne White(decent DE),Daniel Bullocks(decent SS with hopefully help around him). Backus and Raiola are more than serviceable for one year at least. Backus especially was not the problem last year with the Oline when you re-watch the games.

I didn't even count Matthew Stafford because Daunte is the guy for 2009 rightfully so with Linehan here. Its more of a unknown leaning towards bad than a guranteed historically bad team like last year. Due to a ton of changeover, expecting more than 5 wins shouldn't be done but we do play the NFC North close no matter what. Its the non NFC North games were the Lions get demolished, the worst of the year always being on Thanksgiving making the public perception of non Lions fans even worse.

The roster is in much better shape after one offseason without Millen and thats not even counting on Stafford to be a franchise QB. If he is, then the Lions are even better shape but we won't find that out until 2010,2011. The Bears,Vikings,Packers have all improved as well, but the games were already close with 2008 Lions roster. Cutler is the biggest drastic change but he's not invincible to Lions losses, see 2007.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Peter King just rated Chicago as the 4th best team in football. Wow.
are the Lions top 20?
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:40 PM    (permalink
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thats still maybe 50%. i dont see how the Lions are going to take 3rd in the division over the other 3.
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Old 05-11-2009, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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thats still maybe 50%. i dont see how the Lions are going to take 3rd in the division over the other 3.
I can't see that either. Then again, I couldn't see a team go 0-16...
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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1. Vikings ~ Best Def, AD, and i'm a homer

2. Bears ~ Cutler will have a solid impact on the offense, Forte is a stud, and they still have a decent def

3. Packers ~ Rodgers is great, but a suspect def b/c of the switch to the 3-4

4. Lions ~ well, they are the Lions... 'nuff said!
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:21 PM    (permalink
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thats still maybe 50%. i dont see how the Lions are going to take 3rd in the division over the other 3.
What do you mean maybe 50%. It is exatly 50% of the starting roster or more when you count big role players such as nickel,slot,KR/PR. 50% of the starting roster is a huge turnover rate so yes I would consider that a new team. Heck the Bears getting Culter/Pace alone makes it a new team to game plan for Chicago. 2 guys impact which will be great versus 11 or more new guys(maybe Stafford too) impacts for Detroit.

The other half remaining of Detroits 0-16 roster are good football players for the most part whom I listed before. Its not like we kept the Dwight Smiths Ryan Neces and Paris Lenons from our 0-16 team we kept the players that actually produced like Calvin,Ernie,Kevin Smith,Gosder and the young players with potential Avril,Fluellen,Bullocks. So an unknown on Detroit 50% with seemingly better talent and 50% of the Lions roster that deserves to stay means improvement for the Lions. The entire Detroit roster in 2008 wasn't junk contrary to popular belief. Some players actually did produce it just wasn't enough to carry the terrible players. White/Avril were the only ones to pressure the QB so they stayed and Bullocks/Sims were our best tackers by far. I'd say half or more were terrible, so we replaced half or more. There is nobody remaining on the roster that I absolutely hate like Lenon,Dwight Smith,Nece,Darby(not starting and at nose),McDonald/Furrey without Martz et.

I agree I wouldn't expect anyone to see 3rd right now from Detroit especially from division rivals eyes. 6-7 wins is enough to get third though, but you're telling me the Packers coming off a 6-10 season can't go 6-10 again?

I'd actually prefer it if you write off the Lions because of 0-16 and Millen,both of which have nothing to do with the Lions 2009 roster. Vikings and Bears are much tougher to leap frog since they are the frontrunners and both very talented. However, 10 and 9 wins from prior year doesn't mean you get or more wins automatically again. Pittsburgh,Baltimore,Green Bay twice,each other twice,Seattle(best offseason?),Arizona,an NFC East opponent and NFC South opponent. 10 tough games for the 3 frontrunner North teams means you have to earn it. Then don't slip up against an overhauled Detroit who usually play you close,and the rest of your weaker opponents(who Detroit plays too St Louis,Cleveland,Cincy,San Fran(SF isn't that weak actually).
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Old 05-11-2009, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Yes we did. Our offensive philosophy is different. Our defensive philosophy is completely different. Our starting day roster will be loaded with new faces.

In what way isn't this a new team?

If you take the Pittsburgh Steelers roster and you force their defensive to play a Tampa 2 and you force their offense to play in a spread - that team is different.
Great. After all this is done you are still the Lions, and you still have a majority of the same faces returning this year. Different isn't always better, might want to get ahold of that concept before the season starts.
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Great. After all this is done you are still the Lions, and you still have a majority of the same faces returning this year. Different isn't always better, might want to get ahold of that concept before the season starts.
You are incorrect. Over the majority is new plus the coaching. The faces on the Lions roster are not the same at all and the ones you do recognize, you like seeing their face on the team. And the ones returning are returning for a reason, they don't suck,we like them or they are young with potential. I love how everyone assumes nobody played well for the Lions last year. That is utterly false. The good players weren't mistake free but for the most part produced on a weekly basis. Ernie Sims,Calvin Johnson,Kevin Smith,Jeff Backus,Gosder Cherilus,Cliff Avril,DeWayne White had the least to do with going 0-16 and were the reasons were competive in games instead losing 100 to nothing every game.

7 new starters of 11 on D which was the main problem last year. Usually change doesn't mean better, but when you are historically bad on defense(record breaking bad), change does mean better especially massive overhauling change. Especially, Julian Peterson over Ryan Nece, Larry Foote over Paris Lenon, Louis Delmas over Dwight Smith(and yes Delmas is a rookie but Dwight Smith is the worst FS ever in the history of the league with the way he tackles compared to how Delmas tackles),Grady Jackson over Chuck Darby(due to 60 more lbs of gearth to block with our LB core behind him), decent DEs in Avril(led rookies in sacks) and White who is a decent DE but has health issues in second half of seasons. Back end at corner is probably still the weak link for sure but Bodden and Brian Kelly couldn't do anything, Henry and Buchanon can't be worse than torched every week especially on 3rd down and only 1 int. Especially with LB coverage help and safety help coming in 2009 and a new nickle corner too in Eric King from the Titans. Just a better run defense(even at 20th say,not record breaking 32) will aid Detroit immensly which I think we did address that area greatly.


Offense 4 new starters plus a future potential franchise QB on Offense. Calvin was the offense last year amongst QB turmoil, so just think if he actually has decent QB play. That QB turmoil is addressed with Daunte/Linehan and Stafford for the future. Giving Calvin a little bit of help would be nice. Bryant Johnson,Ronald Curry,Pettgrew, and Derrick Williams certainly is a good start. Furrey and McDonald were worthless without Martz and they both got hurt.

Blocking issues. New Left Guard from a team with a great Oline coach,new blocking tight end, who is supposedly a monster blocker and will aid this Oline, Gosder making the jump from year 1 to year 2, Backus more than serviceable and then problems at center although Raiola has played better and RG IMO. Kevin Smith in year 2, Maurice Morris as a better 3rd down back than Rudi if needed, a new FB, a QB that knows the system as opposed to looking at his wrist band to figure out the play and hopefully not being down 21-0 in the first quarter should all aid our Oline problems.

Saying it's the same old Lions would be true if it were the majority of the same faces and Millen/Marinelli were still in charge. However, its a ton of new faces and the good/decent players remaining with a new coahing staff. The biggest offseason move was done in October with the firing of Millen. We're going to claw our way out and the North will be very even more competitive, 90s competive.
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Old 05-11-2009, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Lions for NFC North Champions?
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:13 PM    (permalink
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Yes Lions for NFC North Champions. That is what I have been saying. End Sarcasm and hopefully dumbass people saying same old Lions. Not much is the same, heck we even changed our uniforms.

The Millen purge has begun. No more free wins, ever.
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Old 05-11-2009, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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nobody said its the same team. but to assume they are going to make a Dolphinesque/Falconesque leap is really like a 0.01% chance
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Old 05-11-2009, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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One thing to note with the Lions is chemistry. You say they have all those new players, how are those players going to gel and everything. Plus, who is the veteran leader in the locker room, that will keep the team together after a tough loss or two in a row.

You also have to remember that very few of those players(if any) that they added were stars or anything close to it. As far as the guys they added that will play this year, I'd say that only a couple of them will be stars or play anything like it this year. Stafford isn't likely to play and shouldn't, Pettigrew is good, but how big of a difference will a rookie TE make, Delmas should be a real good player in the secondary, but will he be right away, note the big jump in competition level, and Peterson should make a big impact. Those would be about the only guys that Detroit added that I'd come close to labeling stars(unless I'm forgetting someone), and 3 of them are rookies and one isn't likely to play.

That being said, I could see the Lions winning 4-5 games if the transition goes as smoothly as possible.
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Old 05-12-2009, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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are the Lions top 20?
I would rather have Peter King claim we will go 0-32 than have him call us a top 20 team. The guy is about as accurate as an indoor sun dial.

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Great. After all this is done you are still the Lions, and you still have a majority of the same faces returning this year.
Are you sure?

QB: Stafford is new and, unless Culpepper performs beautifully, is likely to start by week 8 at the latest. If Culpepper performs well, then it is likely due to the fact he is basically a different man, having lost 30 lbs and playing for a coordinator he had his best years under.

RB: Kevin Smith will own the position from day one. Also we have added a Spell Back in Maurice Morris and just signed Antoine Smith from FSU after an impressive camp. We also added Andre Brown who will help with Kick Returns. Terrell Smith was added at FB.

WR: Calvin Johnson is the most talented WR in the league. Everyone behind him is new.

TE: Brandon Pettigrew is new.

OL: Added two new guards.

DL: Added Gandy and Sammie Lee which will add massive bulk. We still may add a Kevin Carter-like DE.

LB: Added two starting LB's in Foote and Peterson. Added two more rookies.

DB: Almost entirely new. Added three new CB's and a promising young safety.

So we have new players at QB, FB, WR, TE, LG, RG on offense (6 of 11) and at NG, OLB, MLB, RCB, LCB, FS (6 of 11), and this not including players that will get significant playing time (like back up RB, third and fourth WR's, nickle backs, etc).

So of 22 standard starting positions, we have new starters at 12.

The majority of our starters our new.

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Different isn't always better, might want to get ahold of that concept before the season starts.
But different is also not always insignificant. Might want to get a hold of that concept before the season starts.

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Yes Lions for NFC North Champions. That is what I have been saying. End Sarcasm and hopefully dumbass people saying same old Lions. Not much is the same, heck we even changed our uniforms.

The Millen purge has begun. No more free wins, ever.
They won't learn. They would rather go the easy route "Lions suxor!"
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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nobody said its the same team. but to assume they are going to make a Dolphinesque/Falconesque leap is really like a 0.01% chance
Why?

What makes us different than the Dolphins or Falcons in 2008?

What makes us different than the Browns (went 4-12 in 06, 10-6 in 07) or the Bucs (went 4-12 in 06, playoffs in 07) in 2007?

What makes us different than the Saints (3-13 in 05, playoffs in 06) or the Jets (went 4-12 in 05, playoffs in 06) in 2006?
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
Why?

What makes us different than the Dolphins or Falcons in 2008?

What makes us different than the Browns (went 4-12 in 06, 10-6 in 07) or the Bucs (went 4-12 in 06, playoffs in 07) in 2007?

What makes us different than the Saints (3-13 in 05, playoffs in 06) or the Jets (went 4-12 in 05, playoffs in 06) in 2006?
u are the lions :/ too lazy to list most of it
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Old 05-12-2009, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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Why?

What makes us different than the Dolphins or Falcons in 2008?

What makes us different than the Browns (went 4-12 in 06, 10-6 in 07) or the Bucs (went 4-12 in 06, playoffs in 07) in 2007?

What makes us different than the Saints (3-13 in 05, playoffs in 06) or the Jets (went 4-12 in 05, playoffs in 06) in 2006?
What makes you different than the Rams who went from 3-13 to 2-14?

What makes you different than the Chiefs who went from 4-12 to 2-14?

What makes you different than any other team that got worse from one season to the next?
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:08 AM    (permalink
P-L
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What makes you different than the Rams who went from 3-13 to 2-14?

What makes you different than the Chiefs who went from 4-12 to 2-14?

What makes you different than any other team that got worse from one season to the next?
Maybe because it is impossible to be worse than 0-16. Simple logic tells you that you can't win less than zero games or lose more than 16 games in an NFL season.
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Maybe because it is impossible to be worse than 0-16. Simple logic tells you that you can't win less than zero games or lose more than 16 games in an NFL season.
does that make you a playoff contender?
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:23 AM    (permalink
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does that make you a playoff contender?
he was replying to the hypothetical situation created by MD that we are no different from teams that got worse after a bad season. Nobody's saying we're playoff contenders (well, nobody sane anyway)
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Maybe because it is impossible to be worse than 0-16. Simple logic tells you that you can't win less than zero games or lose more than 16 games in an NFL season.
I know you're not this dense...
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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he was replying to the hypothetical situation created by MD that we are no different from teams that got worse after a bad season. Nobody's saying we're playoff contenders (well, nobody sane anyway)
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Why?

What makes us different than the Dolphins or Falcons in 2008?

What makes us different than the Browns (went 4-12 in 06, 10-6 in 07) or the Bucs (went 4-12 in 06, playoffs in 07) in 2007?

What makes us different than the Saints (3-13 in 05, playoffs in 06) or the Jets (went 4-12 in 05, playoffs in 06) in 2006?
thats what i was referring to
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Old 05-13-2009, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by StorminNorman View Post
Why?

What makes us different than the Dolphins or Falcons in 2008?

What makes us different than the Browns (went 4-12 in 06, 10-6 in 07) or the Bucs (went 4-12 in 06, playoffs in 07) in 2007?

What makes us different than the Saints (3-13 in 05, playoffs in 06) or the Jets (went 4-12 in 05, playoffs in 06) in 2006?
The difference is those teams actually won a game. You guys are coming off the worst season in NFL history. The worst ever. You guys suck. Its going to take more than 2 vet LBs to make anyone even consider you guys a mediocre team. Your terrible.
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