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Old 05-09-2009, 09:11 PM    (permalink
DoughBoy
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Originally Posted by Timbathia View Post
Lets get things a little more evened up why dont we. Cutler had 616 pass attempts compared to Kerry Collins 415. The Broncos o-line starting 5 gave up about 1 more sack total than the Titans in an extra 200 passing attempts. Everyone knew the Broncos were gonna be passing non-stop last year to stay in games, whereas teams playing the Titans generally got to play the run first and were happy to let Collins pass.

Call me a homer, but I say the Broncos o-line have the Titans beat by an awfully long way.
The Titans are a much better run blocking team.
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Old 05-09-2009, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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so really this is just showing that Chris Snee> you and your right guard
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:21 PM    (permalink
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Damn you SackIntosh. Damn you.

Branden Albert is a baller. Two of those sacks were on our backs. I remember one where Jamaal Charles was supposed to help and totally missed his assignment, and I'm sure LJ did his usual "blocking" too!
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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The Bills left side of the line really can't get much worse without Peters and Dockery I guess...
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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These stats like a lot of NFL stats are very misleading. Teams that rely on the run a lot will always have lower sack totals than teams which rely the pass. Obviously teams that run the ball a lot won't be asking their OL to pass block nearly as often as teams that rely on the pass. DC will scheme to stop the run against run first teams and will tell their DL to play the run first and the pass second. Teams blocking against these teams won't be put in a position too often when the DL can just tie off on the pass rush and ignore the run. These team's OL will therefore have a far easier time pass blocking than an OL that is on a pass first team. Their OL will often find the DL and LB's rushing the passer and ignoring the run and are bound to give up more sacks as a consequence. Then there is the factor of how mobile your QB is or how quick a release your QB has. These types of QB's make the OL look better than they are and will usually give up far fewer sacks.
So like I said, listing players by how few sacks they gave up hardly is realistically without examining the other factors.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Timbathia View Post
Lets get things a little more evened up why dont we. Cutler had 616 pass attempts compared to Kerry Collins 415. The Broncos o-line starting 5 gave up about 1 more sack total than the Titans in an extra 200 passing attempts. Everyone knew the Broncos were gonna be passing non-stop last year to stay in games, whereas teams playing the Titans generally got to play the run first and were happy to let Collins pass.

Call me a homer, but I say the Broncos o-line have the Titans beat by an awfully long way.
Good stat, but it's 165 pass attempts. Vince Young also saw significant time, about 2 games worth.

If you wish to put things in context, then we can factor in the quality of competition that the Denver OL faced in comparison to the Titans OL, as well as the Denver OL having a better supporting cast around them, aside from RB.

Credit goes to Denver's OL for a tremendous season, but the top sack leaders in the AFC West last season were Shaun Phillips (7.5), Jyles Tucker (5.5), and Kalimba Edwards (5). The AFC South's leaders were Mario Williams (12), Robert Mathis (11.5), and Dwight Freeney (10.5).

Wait until the Denver OL is blocking for Kyle Orton while Shawne Merriman is coming from one side and Phillips/English is coming from the other before saying they're better than the Titans OL which has been elite for two seasons in a row.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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so really this is just showing that Chris Snee> you and your right guard


O hai!
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:26 PM    (permalink
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These stats aren't always the most accurate. They don't account for schemes and all that. Plus, it can't be understated how much he did to improve our rushing attack.
I agree with you that Faneca helped our rushing attack but he did nothing for our passing game. Thats all I meant.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:45 PM    (permalink
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Got to say that the Vikings ones seem harsh on the guards. I question if maybe the guards cop the sack when the tackles get beaten badly inside. The amount of times McKinnie and Cook both got beat by hard moves outside countered inside is the only way you could explain the guards having so many. Herrera, Hutch and Birk were the strength of the line in the passing game. No way McKinnie only gave up that many, either that or he got bailed out more than anyone on that list by his backs and QB, he was horrible last year in pass pro.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:27 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitanHope View Post
Good stat, but it's 165 pass attempts. Vince Young also saw significant time, about 2 games worth.

If you wish to put things in context, then we can factor in the quality of competition that the Denver OL faced in comparison to the Titans OL, as well as the Denver OL having a better supporting cast around them, aside from RB.

Credit goes to Denver's OL for a tremendous season, but the top sack leaders in the AFC West last season were Shaun Phillips (7.5), Jyles Tucker (5.5), and Kalimba Edwards (5). The AFC South's leaders were Mario Williams (12), Robert Mathis (11.5), and Dwight Freeney (10.5).

Wait until the Denver OL is blocking for Kyle Orton while Shawne Merriman is coming from one side and Phillips/English is coming from the other before saying they're better than the Titans OL which has been elite for two seasons in a row.
There is no doubt the 3 guys you mentioned are much better pass rushers than anything in the AFC west. The discrepancy is not quite as large as you make out, however, if you look at team sacks, as the raiders and chargers get as many sacks as the colts and jags - they just spread them out more. The texans get more than half their sacks from mario, so as a team they are pretty hopeless at 27th in the nfl. Admittedly the Chiefs couldnt pass rush my mother. Related to this - Mario, Mathis and Freeney got 15 sacks combined playing against the AFC North.

There is no doubt that Daniel Graham is a huge reason as to why Denver gave up so few sacks, as he is the best blocking TE in the NFL IMO. I guess we each have our opinion, but I will happily take Denver's sack total with 170 extra pass attempts while playing from behind most of the season (while I am sure you wouldnt trade your line).

Orton might need a lot of help to run this new offense, but with the Broncos front five, Daniel Graham, and now Quinn and Moreno - he will sure get as good a protection as any QB in the league.

p.s. I think everyone else in the AFC west is hoping that Merriman doesnt come back quite the same as he was.
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Old 05-10-2009, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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The Titans are a much better run blocking team.
They certainly get more practice, as they had 120 more run attempts last season. Despite using everyone in Denver as a RB last season, the Broncos averaged half a yard per attempt more than the Titans. Admittedly we had the element of surprise when we did get around to running it though, whereas it was pretty much a given that the Titans would run every play.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:30 AM    (permalink
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Davin Joesph should be green, he was an 08 pro-bowler. Kinda surprised by Donald Penn giving up 8.5 sacks, that's rough. Nice find.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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...another thing not accounted for is how much a team schemes to help out a player. Ryan Clady for instance got a lot of RB chipping defenders on his side and movement his way since he was a rookie. Some guys don't get any help, they're left out on an island by themselves. I'm not singling out Clady though, just an example. It is typical to give rookies a lot of help, which explains why sometimes a guy has a seemingly great rookie season and then gets set back a little his second year (and usually they bounce back in year 3 or 4).
Are you just flingin crap out there? Did you watch the Broncos last year?
Clady had minimal help, he didn't have Dan Graham protecting him on his side, he had his man in check most of the time. He was a freakin beast.
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Old 05-10-2009, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Chicago Bears
3. Orlando Pace (Rams) 2.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
7. Josh Beekman (Bears) 1.25 sacks allowed (16 starts)
1. Olin Kreutz (Bears) 0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
18. Roberto Garza (Bears) 2.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
NA. Chris Williams (Bears) No stats

New England Patriots
23. Matt Light (Pats) 7.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
26. Logan Mankins (Pats) 5.0 sacks allowed (16 starts)
29. Dan Koppen (Pats) 4.5 sacks allowed (16 starts)
12. Stephen Neal (Pats) 2.0 sacks allowed (9 starts)
8. Nick Kaczur (Pats) 3.0 sacks allowed (14 starts)
I really looks like the Bears have a solid line to protect Cutler for the near future. Age seems to be ok with Pace at 33, Kruetz at 31, Garza at 30, Beekman at 25, and Williams at 23. As long as Williams back doesn't become an issue and Pace doesn't turn out to be a flop they could potentially be the best line in the NFC North. I think this bodes well for Matt Forte and Jay Cutler. As for the backups I am not really sure what to make of some of the guys such as Kevin Shaffer, Dan Buenning, and Frank Omiyale. I do hope that Lance Louis can stick around as a practice squad guy this year, as I think he can be a nice player given some good developmental time.

For the Patriots, I would sense that the sacks may be a bit higher than usual due to Matt Cassel's inability to get rid of the ball after taking over for Brady early last season. Age here seems like it could be an issue with Neal at 32, Light at 30, Kaczur at 30, Koppen at 29, and Mankins at 27. I think they should be good for another season or two. Quality depth seems to be questionable, but I think what they did in the draft will help greatly in the future. I really like Vollmer's potential, and hopefully he can be ready in a year or two to take over for Matt Light. Ohrnberger hopefully can slide in for Stephen Neal after some time, and maybe Bussey will be a contributor some day.
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Old 05-10-2009, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Here are a few videos profiling Derrick Dockery's awesomeness:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-Dolphins-2008
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-vs-Bills-2008
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-vs-Bills-2008
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-h...-vs-Bills-2008
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Old 05-10-2009, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Stats are good if people know the overall picture and use it to confirm it, but if fans or anyone doesn't know the overall picture, and use stats as the end all or rely on it more so, then that's where it can be inaccurate.

Yeah personnel variables are there as well. So if DeMarcus Ware is killing QBs with his sacks, instead of rolling into a game with your usual pass protections you may have to slide the protection to where ever he is, and make the other OLB the hot blitzer. So even that is a variable.

I think all stats are good to have, but I would say they are what they are, you have to measure it against the overall picture and then it will tell the complete story.
Of course, you and I are saying the same basic idea. You just need to understand the different variables that occur. Some people do, and some people don't.
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Old 05-10-2009, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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They certainly get more practice, as they had 120 more run attempts last season. Despite using everyone in Denver as a RB last season, the Broncos averaged half a yard per attempt more than the Titans. Admittedly we had the element of surprise when we did get around to running it though, whereas it was pretty much a given that the Titans would run every play.
Woo hoo...someone else to support me! Make more posts so I'm not the only one defending the greatness that is the Denver Broncos.

It's not like Clady didn't block against elite DEs (Abraham, Seymour, Peppers, Porter). Yes I know Porter is a LB, but he rushes the passer. He not only held is own against good pass rushers, but he dominated his position.
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Old 05-10-2009, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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O hai!


o hai indeed. Sorry Snee.
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Old 05-10-2009, 08:34 PM    (permalink
jkpigskin
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nice post, very interesting some big names at the bottom of the list.
Jared Gaither!!!!
love the guy
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Old 05-11-2009, 03:59 AM    (permalink
Addict
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oh lawdy look at those Lions players being the equivalent of revolving doors for DE's....
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:36 PM    (permalink
YAYareaRB
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**** I didn't think Joe Staley did that bad lol
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:38 PM    (permalink
Sniper
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**** I didn't think Joe Staley did that bad lol
In a stunning, STUNNING, I tell you, coincidence, the NFC East also had three teams in the top 6 in the league in sacks.
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Old 05-13-2009, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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Josh Beekman is doing nicer than i expected
Yeah no kidding, and he is one of the guys that looks like he'll be replaced. He isnt great in the run game, but if he can protect Cutler then leave him in.
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who retires first: brett favre or aaron rodgers?
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Old 05-13-2009, 09:34 PM    (permalink
Splat
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Great draft for OT's last year.
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Old 05-13-2009, 10:00 PM    (permalink
DeepThreat
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Joe Thomas only giving up 4.5 is insane! Here is who he all went up against:

DeMarcus Ware
James Harrison
LaMarr Woodley
Terrell Suggs
Calvin Pace
Mathias Kiwanuka
Terrell Suggs
Ellis Dummerville
Mario Williams
Dwight Freeney
Darren Howard
Trent Cole
James Harrison
LaMarr Woodley

6 had at least 10 sacks, and 9 had at least 8 sacks
That is absolutely unbelievable.
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