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Old 05-19-2009, 12:17 PM    (permalink
Maybe Next Year Millen2
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i believe it had to do with the system he was in. I remember he sucked in zone coverage
Well suck is suck. Zone should be easier than man especially with that pass rush. Adding Spags helped Webster for sure plus the awesome pass rush. But Spags didn't trust him after he got burnt early in 2007. However, due to injuries he got another chance which is the beauty of the NFL. Webster had a great 2008 but his first 3 years, everyone takes Samuel. Which is a reason I took him because I trust him more. Webster grew up for sure and had confidence from the playoffs in 2007. Hope for the Giants sake he keeps it up in 2009. Spags is gone but Osi is back.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...arts_agai.html

Webster sucked ass until very late 2007 when he got back into the lineup due to Madisons injury. 2005,2006,most of 2007 on the scout team Webster was a disappointment. Then he did very well in 2008. Thats all I was saying ScottyD and its the truth about Webster that he struggled for majority of 3 years so don't tell me I don't know anything about Webster just because I'm not a Giants fan. One studly year for Webster whereas Samuel was doing very well in New England at that time and still had a more than solid year in Philly this year. The time on the pine did Webster some good though as he got to learn behind Madison and the Giants pass rush being awesome helps some too. Hope he keeps it up in 2009.
Well first of all Tim Lewis was our DC and he's easily the worst DC I've ever seen, he left bump n run man corners like Webster 10 yards off the line and basically ran a prevent defense, add to that a lot of injuries at DE horrible linebackers and no safeties and our defense was pretty damn poor before two years ago. Once we went to a man scheme and Webster got comfortable again he's become an elite corner. I can see why someone who doesn't watch him regularly would be skeptical about these past season and a quarter being a fluke but if you watch him he's been a completely different corner. I mean I was one of his biggest bashers on this site when Lewis was still ruining...I mean running things.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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really, it's nfcn by a bit imo.

the DLine is a subject of extreme homerism imo on the part of the east.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/fo...arts_agai.html

Webster sucked ass until very late 2007 when he got back into the lineup due to Madisons injury. 2005,2006,most of 2007 on the scout team Webster was a disappointment. Then he did very well in 2008. Thats all I was saying ScottyD and its the truth about Webster that he struggled for majority of 3 years so don't tell me I don't know anything about Webster just because I'm not a Giants fan. One studly year for Webster whereas Samuel was doing very well in New England at that time and still had a more than solid year in Philly this year. The time on the pine did Webster some good though as he got to learn behind Madison and the Giants pass rush being awesome helps some too. Hope he keeps it up in 2009.
It's a shame you don't have the slightest clue about what you're talking about. Webster is a man corner, pure man. Tim Lewis *cringes* ****** him up horribly with the worst schemes ever. Webster was OUTSTANDING once Lewis left and has been over the past 2 years, especially last year. GTFO with this nonsense.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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really, it's nfcn by a bit imo.

the DLine is a subject of extreme homerism imo on the part of the east.
if we do it cant be by much, we have alot of pro bowlers and premiere guys.

DE- Justin Tuck
(Demarcus Ware)
Osi Umenyiora
Trent Cole
Mathias Kiwanuka
Victor Abimiri who has improved
Brian Orakpo who could be a beast next to big al
Marcus Spears

DT- Albert Haynesworth
Broderick Bunkley
Jay Ratliff
Mike Patterson
Fred Robbins
Chris Canty

Even older guys like Cornelius Griffin and Andre Carter were pretty good in their prime, and still are decent starters.
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:51 PM    (permalink
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There is no way it is entirely the defensive coordinators fault. He played poorly early 2007(so you are wrong with outstanding once Lewis left) and was put on the scout team by Spags and inactive in November in 2007. Spags didn't trust him until he was forced to play him due to injury. Then Webster suprised him and all of us. And of course great pass rush makes corners look better than they really are.

And now what with Spags gone. Can we expect Webster to regress some based on the DC determining his playing ability?
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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There is no way it is entirely the defensive coordinators fault. He played poorly early 2007(so you are wrong with outstanding once Lewis left) and was put on the scout team by Spags and inactive in November in 2007. Spags didn't trust him until he was forced to play him due to injury. Then Webster suprised him and all of us. And of course great pass rush makes corners look better than they really are.

And now what with Spags gone. Can we expect Webster to regress some based on the DC determining his playing ability?
okay, you are borderline speaking out of your ass now just to try to prove a point.

1. The entire defense played bad, and although he started we were rotating so he didnt see a huge amount of playing time. He had to adapt himself to a different style of play. Press coverage is not something easy to transition to because if you wiff on the press your screwed, thats why CONFIDENCE in what you are doing takes time, and confidence has always been an issue with him.

2. He was not put on scout team, he was on the depth chart just inactive, theres a difference.

3. Thank you for telling us exactly what spags was thinking, because its a 100% truth? I dont think that was all the reason, he had an adjustment to make that Sam Madison, RW, and Ross especially didnt have. Dockery did but he played more inside which you are used to pressing and hands on with underneath routes.

4. Or is it that horrible passrush makes good corners look bad? and good passrush just keeps corners from having to cover for way too long, because thats the truth.

Bottom line, Corey has gotten alot better and he played very well last year. He wasnt picked on as much as Ross was (Ross was injured) but he did cover guys like TO and Larry Fitz (i could list others) and did a good job in man to man just trying to keep the ball out of their hands.
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:46 PM    (permalink
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okay, you are borderline speaking out of your ass now just to try to prove a point.

1. The entire defense played bad, and although he started we were rotating so he didnt see a huge amount of playing time. He had to adapt himself to a different style of play. Press coverage is not something easy to transition to because if you wiff on the press your screwed, thats why CONFIDENCE in what you are doing takes time, and confidence has always been an issue with him.

The entire defense played bad, including Webster. Why does Webster get a pass, he doesn't. Good corners can overcome lack of pass rush at times, look at Nnamdi and Champ. Then Webster was benched. He learned from it and got better. The man played bad in 2005,2006 and 2007 for most of the year. Then he got better. I never said he didn't get better.

2. He was not put on scout team, he was on the depth chart just inactive, theres a difference.

That articles says he was on the scout team. Either way he was the 5th or 6th corner from late Septebmer to early December until injuries hit. Its just semantics but either way he was way down the depth chart wherease Samuel,Newman and Rogers were all playing.


3. Thank you for telling us exactly what spags was thinking, because its a 100% truth? I dont think that was all the reason, he had an adjustment to make that Sam Madison, RW, and Ross especially didnt have. Dockery did but he played more inside which you are used to pressing and hands on with underneath routes.

I don't have to know exactly what he's thinking to know somebody who is benched and 5th/6th on the depth chart doesn't instill confidence in a coach. Then because of injury, not him winning over Spags in practice did he get back in the lineup. I never said it was 100% but its pretty obvious.

4. Or is it that horrible passrush makes good corners look bad? and good passrush just keeps corners from having to cover for way too long, because thats the truth.

Its both. Horrible pass rush makes bad corners look bad and sometimes good corners look bad. But good corners can overcome a bad pass rush, Webster never did. Good pass rush helps good corners even more and makes bad corners look better than they are. So its really to be determined with Webster. I'd like to see more than one season is what it boils down too.

Bottom line, Corey has gotten alot better and he played very well last year. He wasnt picked on as much as Ross was (Ross was injured) but he did cover guys like TO and Larry Fitz (i could list others) and did a good job in man to man just trying to keep the ball out of their hands.
I never said Webster didn't have a good 2008. I said he struggled in 2005-2007 and then people made excuses for him to make him seem better than he is with only one year of great play. Ahhh its the DC, ahhh its everyone else, blah blah blah. Webster does it again in 2009 then you got a better argument. His passrush should be there but his DC won't. We'll see what happens.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:25 PM    (permalink
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WTF are talking about? All of us giants fans thought he was garbage until he came back in 2007 and since then he's been an elite corner, only clearly behind Aso.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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WTF are talking about? All of us giants fans thought he was garbage until he came back in 2007 and since then he's been an elite corner, only clearly behind Aso.
Exactly, he was garbage until very late 2007 but some people are making excuses for him to make him seem better than he is. You can't be an elite corner after only one year of great play. 2 more years of playing like he did in 2008 against number 1 receivers, then yes I'll call him elite. But that is to be determined.

And no wonder people picked on Ross if he was hurt. Of course, they'll pick on the injured corner playing instead of Webster. Webster did a good job in 2008, but picking on injured Ross and the Giants pass rush the way it is as very strong, doesn't make Webster an elite corner.

Samuel has been doing solid to great for years. Newman has been very strong when healthy but the health is a big IF. We'll see how 2009 turns out. As I said he has a good chance with that pass rush to be elite(or remained masked), but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. New DC in Giant land, Ross is healthy, LBs are better, there is no excuses for Webster and its set up nicely for him to succeed.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:05 PM    (permalink
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Exactly, he was garbage until very late 2007 but some people are making excuses for him to make him seem better than he is. You can't be an elite corner after only one year of great play. 2 more years of playing like he did in 2008 against number 1 receivers, then yes I'll call him elite. But that is to be determined.

And no wonder people picked on Ross if he was hurt. Of course, they'll pick on the injured corner playing instead of Webster. Webster did a good job in 2008, but picking on injured Ross and the Giants pass rush the way it is as very strong, doesn't make Webster an elite corner.

Samuel has been doing solid to great for years. Newman has been very strong when healthy but the health is a big IF. We'll see how 2009 turns out. As I said he has a good chance with that pass rush to be elite(or remained masked), but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt. New DC in Giant land, Ross is healthy, LBs are better, there is no excuses for Webster and its set up nicely for him to succeed.
Well Webster was set up to fail by the immortal Tim Lewis, you're seriously under-rating how exceptionally aweful that man was. So while he did suck he sucked at doing something he never has to do anymore. Since we went ot a man cover scheme and Webster re-adjusted to it he's been incredible, if simply playing like one of the best corners not named Aso doesn't make you elite than I guess Webster isn't elite, but his play was.

Ross was picked on when healthy as well, his injury only really hurt him as a tackler/run supporter.

Just an FYI but our pass rush wasn't very good this past season, tuck and a 20 pounds under-weight Kiwi wasn't the type of incredible pass rush that makes decent corners look great. Our secondary stepped up big time last year and Webster was the cream of the crop by far.

As for Samuel he's never been more than a decent cover corner, he has exceptional ball skills, but if you want a corner to just blanket his receiver there's no way in hell you take Samuel over Webster.
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Old 05-19-2009, 06:08 PM    (permalink
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Maybe, but he also didn't have the same type of supporting cast around him and played a different role. Mikell was basically the FS last year to allow Dawkins to roam while Horton got to be more of a traditional SS. Neither choice is terrible, I guess. I just feel like Mikell is absurdly underrated.

When I saw Mikell play I thought he played very well. He hits hard and tackles well... When I watched Horton play he seemed to be everywhere maybe even a poor mans Polamalu. While I agree that either choice is adequate I still feel that for a strictly SS type role, Horton is the better selection...
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Old 05-19-2009, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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1. he wasnt garbage his first year, he was okay, tim lewis ruined him after that. And the entire defense had a learning curve that year, we changed our scheme from traditional zone 4-3 defense to a 4-3 zone blitz/man press system. You cannot blame him for those three games, you can blame him for not getting better after that, although he was still at a disadvantage.

2. He could just have gotten beat out because the other players were simply better? Sam and RW had alot of experience with the defense, Ross had just came from that system, Dockery had a learning curve but as a NB he didnt have to make that much of an adjustment.

Im not saying Webster was great, im saying that most of you guys dont understand when/how/what happened to make him bad.

Clearly we know Tim Lewis was a horrible coach, zone did not fit Webster at all, Webster however was not very confident, made mental errors such as going for a pick instead of a PD, he has always had the physical part, but the coaching (probably alot from RW and Madison) is what made us see him as this shutdown corner.

I personally dont feel he's elite, he's definitely top 15 now, probably top 10. He had somethings that mightve helped him such as Ross being injured and inconsistent, our passrush which was not as great as the year before because of the loss of Osi and Strahan and Kiwanuka transitioning back to end.

I will vouch for him though that he creates alot of his interceptions as appose to them coming off of mistakes and still plays with the priority of not letting the ball get in the WRs hands. He is a shutdown corner in our defense at least.

Samuel is a freelances alot, and it pays off because he has great hands, vision, and agility. Id think he'd be more affected by losing a DC than Webster.
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Old 05-19-2009, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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1. he wasnt garbage his first year, he was okay, tim lewis ruined him after that. And the entire defense had a learning curve that year, we changed our scheme from traditional zone 4-3 defense to a 4-3 zone blitz/man press system. You cannot blame him for those three games, you can blame him for not getting better after that, although he was still at a disadvantage.

2. He could just have gotten beat out because the other players were simply better? Sam and RW had alot of experience with the defense, Ross had just came from that system, Dockery had a learning curve but as a NB he didnt have to make that much of an adjustment.

Im not saying Webster was great, im saying that most of you guys dont understand when/how/what happened to make him bad.

Clearly we know Tim Lewis was a horrible coach, zone did not fit Webster at all, Webster however was not very confident, made mental errors such as going for a pick instead of a PD, he has always had the physical part, but the coaching (probably alot from RW and Madison) is what made us see him as this shutdown corner.

I personally dont feel he's elite, he's definitely top 15 now, probably top 10. He had somethings that mightve helped him such as Ross being injured and inconsistent, our passrush which was not as great as the year before because of the loss of Osi and Strahan and Kiwanuka transitioning back to end.

I will vouch for him though that he creates alot of his interceptions as appose to them coming off of mistakes and still plays with the priority of not letting the ball get in the WRs hands. He is a shutdown corner in our defense at least.

Samuel is a freelances alot, and it pays off because he has great hands, vision, and agility. Id think he'd be more affected by losing a DC than Webster.
I agree with everything you said. However I don't give players a full pass because of a DC. I don't give Leigh Bodden a pass because Joe Barry was one of the worst DCs of all time. Bodden didn't fit zone either but the guy was asked to do certain things and he couldn't do it,bottom line. And I consider zone easier than man so Webster should be able to play zone if he can play man IMO. The answer was it was both Webster and Lewis' problem. As I said, suck is suck, I don't care how or why it happened. And I admit that Webster did get better and did play really well in 2008. However, I want to see one more year of that before I'm fully convinced with Webster picked on more against number 1 receivers more with Ross healthy. I've seen players progress/regress and Webster may or may not if picked on more. He'll have the pass rush though and the Giants pass rush was down in 2008 but it was far from terrible. 42 sacks plus many more pressures is good enough to help out a secondary. It takes full blown lack of pressure at all to really hurt good corners. Its not like I don't consdier Webster a good corner, top 15, borderline top 10 is something I would call Webster. I've seen more than one year of strong play with Samuel. And I like the freelancing from time to time, it leads to more big plays and in a game against the NFC North, freelancing with Cutler who is int prone at times might be required. The NFC East would need a big play like that.
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Old 05-19-2009, 09:32 PM    (permalink
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I agree with everything you said. However I don't give players a full pass because of a DC. I don't give Leigh Bodden a pass because Joe Barry was one of the worst DCs of all time. Bodden didn't fit zone either but the guy was asked to do certain things and he couldn't do it,bottom line. And I consider zone easier than man so Webster should be able to play zone if he can play man IMO. The answer was it was both Webster and Lewis' problem. As I said, suck is suck, I don't care how or why it happened. And I admit that Webster did get better and did play really well in 2008. However, I want to see one more year of that before I'm fully convinced with Webster picked on more against number 1 receivers more with Ross healthy. I've seen players progress/regress and Webster may or may not if picked on more. He'll have the pass rush though and the Giants pass rush was down in 2008 but it was far from terrible. 42 sacks plus many more pressures is good enough to help out a secondary. It takes full blown lack of pressure at all to really hurt good corners. Its not like I don't consdier Webster a good corner, top 15, borderline top 10 is something I would call Webster. I've seen more than one year of strong play with Samuel. And I like the freelancing from time to time, it leads to more big plays and in a game against the NFC North, freelancing with Cutler who is int prone at times might be required. The NFC East would need a big play like that.
Man and Zone are two different skillsets, add in the fact that Lewis played off zone you completely play to the opposite of what webster can do. I agree great players find ways to deal with bad situations, but it is what it is he was shafted. Samuel is an ideal NB freelancer to me. He is decent enough in run support but he limits YAC and is great at jumping routes. On the outside i would want a more physically dominating pair who both limit catches and are good in run support.

I feel that if anything everyone overlooks Webster but praises Ross because he's more exciting. Webster doesnt stick out in any one thing to me, except his physicality and smarts.
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Old 05-22-2009, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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if we do it cant be by much, we have alot of pro bowlers and premiere guys.

DE- Justin Tuck
(Demarcus Ware)
Osi Umenyiora
Trent Cole
Mathias Kiwanuka
Victor Abimiri who has improved
Brian Orakpo who could be a beast next to big al
Marcus Spears

DT- Albert Haynesworth
Broderick Bunkley
Jay Ratliff
Mike Patterson
Fred Robbins
Chris Canty

Even older guys like Cornelius Griffin and Andre Carter were pretty good in their prime, and still are decent starters.
The Vikings D-Line is nearly as good as your best of team.

I still sniff homer. Especially because you use Orakpo who hasn't played a down in the NFL.
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Old 05-22-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
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The Vikings D-Line is nearly as good as your best of team.

I still sniff homer. Especially because you use Orakpo who hasn't played a down in the NFL.
The Williams brothers and Jared Allen + Ray Edwards (who?) is no where close, thats a homer statement.

Thats why Orakpo is low on the list and I said he COULD do well next to Big Al, and its not even sure if he'll play full time end they had him at LB too.

Allen is still not better than DeMarcus Ware, The Williams brothers are great run defenders by dont offer a whole lot on pass rush, just taking up blockers.

RE- Osi/Demarcus Ware
UT- Broderick Bunkley/Mike Patterson
NT- Albert Haynesworth
LE- Tuck/Cole

thats ridiculous
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Old 05-22-2009, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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The Williams brothers and Jared Allen + Ray Edwards (who?) is no where close, thats a homer statement.

Thats why Orakpo is low on the list and I said he COULD do well next to Big Al, and its not even sure if he'll play full time end they had him at LB too.

Allen is still not better than DeMarcus Ware, The Williams brothers are great run defenders by dont offer a whole lot on pass rush, just taking up blockers.

RE- Osi/Demarcus Ware
UT- Broderick Bunkley/Mike Patterson
NT- Albert Haynesworth
LE- Tuck/Cole

thats ridiculous
Allen, The Williamses, and Kampmann is just as ridiculous.
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Old 05-22-2009, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Allen, The Williamses, and Kampmann is just as ridiculous.
not as ridiculous, like a 9 out of 10 for us and a 8.5 for you guys
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Old 05-22-2009, 05:57 PM    (permalink
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lol for saying the Williams arent providing pass rush
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Old 05-22-2009, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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Yeah ballin you're off on kevin williams, he's a really good pass rusher, that said he's not a better tackle than fat albert, and I don't think the difference between Tommie Harris, and his annual injury problems, and Fat pat are significantly better than Bunkley and Ratliff, they're better but as the north pair age the east pair are on the upswing of their careers and do a great job against some of the league's best OLs on a regular basis. So I'll give the North DTs by a small amount, but they don't have near the edge depth we have in the east.
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