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Old 05-19-2009, 01:55 PM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Default Trade for Derrick Burgess???

As per PFT; 'According to ESPN, WEEI.com, and the Boston Globe, the Patriots are interested in sending a 2010 draft pick to the Raiders for defensive end Derrick Burgess.

The Pats reportedly would be willing to send a second-round pick or a third-round pick to Oakland for Burgess.'

I have to be honest I did not see this coming at all. Here's a guy who had 27 sacks in two years('05 and '06) not too long ago. Would obviously upgrade the pass rushing situation but how would he cope in coverage? Another couple of worrying facts about this move is he is 30 and will be 31 before the playoffs and he hasn't played a whole season in three years.

If this does go through I would hope at most it would be a third from next year and the last time the Patriots traded a draft pick for a Raider it worked out OK. What are your thoughts on this potential move?
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Old 05-19-2009, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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It's one of those risk/reward things. If he regains the form he had a few years ago the reward could be high. How high the risk is, of course, depends on what they give up for him. I'd be interested in bringing him in but I don't know if I'd want to give up anything more than a third or fourth.

A couple other things working against him in addition to what you mentioned are that he has never (to my knowledge) played OLB, and he is on the last year of his contract so you either only get him for one year or you have to extend his contract while you have plenty of other guys on the roster already that you need to extend.

I wouldn't mind trading for him if they can get him cheap, both in money and in what they give up in the trade. I'm not so sure though that I want to see an older guy come in that will only be here and be effective for a year or two and who will slow down the development of Crable and Redd. I think I'd rather trade for a younger guy like Parys Haralson or Kamerion Wimbley (if a trade with Mangini is even possible), or someone like that who is young and has a lot of potential though they may not quite have performed up to that level yet.
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Old 05-19-2009, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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We have a lot of question marks in our pass rush and Burgess can get to the QB, plus Jason Taylor is on the Phins again so it makes sense it that regard. We have a lot of unproven young talent at OLB, and adding a veteran who has proven he can get to the QB would definitely be a good move. However, Burgess has played with his hand down during his career and it could be a tough transition this late in his career but I think it could be done; Burgess is a solid athlete and pass rusher. Plus he is a former Rebel!
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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I don't get it. He's 6'2 260 (According to the Boston.com article I read)
Wasn't BB's excuse for not drafting an OLB was their height? No 6'4-6'5 players. They were too short?
Isn't that what he said?

At 30+, I don't like the idea of bringing in someone who's never played in the 34.
He would upgrade our pass rush but only in obvious passing downs.
Would Woods play 1st and 2nd and Burgess on 3rd and long?

It better not be anything more then a 3rd. Even that seems to much for a 30+ who has been fighting injuries recently
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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I would like for us to add Burgess, but as Nalej said I wouldn't be happy if we gave up anything more than a third rounder. He is a talented pass rusher and I think he has the ability to play in a 3-4, but it would definitely be a risk trading for Burgess. We all knew we needed to add a pass rusher before the draft and we failed to do so, I think adding Burgess would be a wise move if the price is not too steep.
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Old 05-19-2009, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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It might not hurt the development of Crable, Redd, etc. but rather it could help them. Bringing in a veteran to teach them some of the nuances of pass rushing can be a great addition...at the right price. No more than a 3rd rounder next year, and I think that he could be capable of transitioning to OLB with a heavy emphasis on rushing the QB, just like Colvin did in his time here.
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Old 05-20-2009, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Honestly I think this is going to end up being a bad trade if a second-round pick is involved. I have serious doubts that the best linebacker they could get this year with a second round pick is Derrick Burgess, another old, injury prone guy. If they wanted linebackers with durability issues and sharply declining production, they should have made a better effort to sign Jason Taylor. I'd rather blow Miami's offer ($1.1 million) out of the water than give up a second-round pick (which, if used right, comes out to being a young starter) for a guy who'll be ineffective in a year or two if he even has anything left at this point.

It's true that New England's pass rush is looking very questionable (to be optimistic), but vastly overpaying for someone they wouldn't have needed if they had invested one of FOUR second round picks in a linebacker this year is not the answer. I don't understand how a team with a gaping hole at linebacker passes on Rey Maualuga, Clay Matthews, Clint Sintim, Everette Brown, etc. I'm going to be extremely disappointed with New England's draft to say the least if those players end up panning out for the teams that drafted them and the Patriots' linebackers are exposed this year.
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Old 05-20-2009, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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yes i def would not be a happy fan is we traded for him.
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Old 05-20-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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I think he could be a nice pickup for us, but again it all depends on the cost. I wouldn't be a happy fan either if we gave up a second rounder for him but I don't think we would even consider giving up anything more than a fourth for him. If we could get Burgess for a fourth I would be very happy since we would have another body at LB and one who is an established albeit declining veteran pass rusher.
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Old 05-24-2009, 01:24 PM    (permalink
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Per Mike Lombardi:

"The trade rumors about Oakland Raiders defensive end Derrick Burgess are real. So real, in fact, the Raiders asked the Patriots for their second-round pick this year, Sebastian Vollmer, and back-up quarterback Kevin O’Connell in exchange for Burgess."

Wow. A second round pick and people who just got picked in the second and third rounds? I don't think so. Vollmer and O'Connell graded out more as 4th-5th round picks but there's no way that trade goes down. I wouldn't even trade a second rounder, and probably not a third. Fourth round would be nice. I would have rather had Burgess than Vollmer with the #58 pick, but no one drafts someone and trades them a month later. That's ridiculous.
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Old 05-24-2009, 03:26 PM    (permalink
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Wow no way would I make that trade. The Patriots have a track record of making good QBs out of relaitve unknowns so I have quite high expectations for O'Connel who has way better physical tools than both Brady and Cassell. Plus Vollmer's upside is very high and could turn out to be a great player. Obviously these are simple projections at the minute but it's not like Burgess is an all-pro or anything
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Old 05-25-2009, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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I guess I could live with a 2nd for Burgess but only because we have 3 2nds next year, although I would much prefer a 3rd.

And ya, that trade is just ridiculous.
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Old 05-25-2009, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy View Post
Per Mike Lombardi:

"The trade rumors about Oakland Raiders defensive end Derrick Burgess are real. So real, in fact, the Raiders asked the Patriots for their second-round pick this year, Sebastian Vollmer, and back-up quarterback Kevin O’Connell in exchange for Burgess."
What the hell? I know we probably shot that proposal down quickly but did the Raiders really think we would give up two young guys that we have obviously just invested a lot in? That is just a weird proposal, Al Davis and the Raiders-you are crazy.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Don Vito View Post
What the hell? I know we probably shot that proposal down quickly but did the Raiders really think we would give up two young guys that we have obviously just invested a lot in? That is just a weird proposal, Al Davis and the Raiders-you are crazy.
Like I said, if I had the choice between drafting Sebastian Vollmer or trading for Derrick Burgess with the #58 pick, I'd take Burgess. I would also take Burgess over Kevin O'Connell. I might even take Burgess over our second round pick in next year's draft, only because the Patriots have a big weakness with their pass rush, and I wouldn't be surprised if their defense cost them another Super Bowl. But the combination of the three is a definite no-go. I think the Raiders are just scared of trading with the Patriots after they traded Randy Moss for (I believe) John Bowie.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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I agree with you and I know we have a glaring weakness in the pass rush, but you very rarely see teams give up on players that they invested a lot in before they even get a shot. O'Connell was a rookie last year and we just drafted Vollmer in the second, for all we know those guys could end up being All-Pros. I just think it would make more sense to ask for a 2010 second rounder then asking for a player a team drafted with a second round pick a month ago. Obviously the Pats saw something they liked in both O'Connell and Vollmer because we took them both a lot higher than most draftniks had them pegged to go.
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Old 05-26-2009, 08:42 AM    (permalink
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hahahahahahaahaa!! hahahahahahaahaa!! hahahahahahaahaa!!


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Looks like Al is expecting a gimme after the stupidity that was the Randy Moss trade. Good luck with that. I think I can hear BB & Bob Kraft laughing from here.
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Old 05-26-2009, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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I don't get it. He's 6'2 260 (According to the Boston.com article I read)
Wasn't BB's excuse for not drafting an OLB was their height? No 6'4-6'5 players. They were too short?
Isn't that what he said?

At 30+, I don't like the idea of bringing in someone who's never played in the 34.
He would upgrade our pass rush but only in obvious passing downs.
Would Woods play 1st and 2nd and Burgess on 3rd and long?

It better not be anything more then a 3rd. Even that seems to much for a 30+ who has been fighting injuries recently
Belichick's not going to draft an OLB in the first unless there's a DeMarcus Ware available. Bottom line. There wasn't. There's too much to learn to waste that roster spot and money on a guy who will likely be useless to Belichick for a year or two (at least).

Burgess played in Rob Ryan's defense, which shares a vast quantity of similarities and versatilities with Belichick's defense. His transition would be very smooth.

Willie McGinnest couldn't cover anyone either. That's really not the biggest concern. I like Burgess, he's a terror when he's in a good defensive system with players who do their job.
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Old 05-26-2009, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Yea, except that there were still OLBs available in the 2nd.
We drafted a S, a CB, a back up NT and a project RT in the 2nd.
You telling me that he's willing to take a project and a backup but refuses to draft an OLB that isn't D. Ware?
Then he'll NEVER draft an OLB then, if that's the case.

I wasn't talking about just the 1st rd- it's about EVERY round.
We didn't draft ONE olb in this draft when its clearly our weak spot
When asked about that- he responded with (paraphrasing)- They were all too short. No 6'4 or 6'5 guys.
If height is the reason why he didn't use a 2nd rd pick on an OLB
then what's the point of trading for an OLB who is too short by BB standards?

That's my point.
It's whateva though.
I don't really agree with that height comment anyways.
I just want our pass rush improved
if Burgess would do that for us then I'm all for it
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenOfProphecy View Post
Like I said, if I had the choice between drafting Sebastian Vollmer or trading for Derrick Burgess with the #58 pick, I'd take Burgess. I would also take Burgess over Kevin O'Connell. I might even take Burgess over our second round pick in next year's draft, only because the Patriots have a big weakness with their pass rush, and I wouldn't be surprised if their defense cost them another Super Bowl. But the combination of the three is a definite no-go. I think the Raiders are just scared of trading with the Patriots after they traded Randy Moss for (I believe) John Bowie.
If that's the case, give us Vollmer. Trading Burgess for only O'Connell would be useless considering there's still a good chance for Russell to succeed, and you don't trade a solid starter for insurance. Vollmer would be a project for the team, but I think the need for a long-term solution at RT is great enough where the deal could be made. As a Raiders fan, the second round pick is less appealing than the other two options because there's no way in knowing what Al's crazy mind could waste it on next, lol.

Also, Al does have a tendency to overvalue his own players, only to later trade them away for significantly less.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nalej View Post
Yea, except that there were still OLBs available in the 2nd.
We drafted a S, a CB, a back up NT and a project RT in the 2nd.
You telling me that he's willing to take a project and a backup but refuses to draft an OLB that isn't D. Ware?
Then he'll NEVER draft an OLB then, if that's the case.

I wasn't talking about just the 1st rd- it's about EVERY round.
We didn't draft ONE olb in this draft when its clearly our weak spot
When asked about that- he responded with (paraphrasing)- They were all too short. No 6'4 or 6'5 guys.
If height is the reason why he didn't use a 2nd rd pick on an OLB
then what's the point of trading for an OLB who is too short by BB standards?

That's my point.
It's whateva though.
I don't really agree with that height comment anyways.
I just want our pass rush improved
if Burgess would do that for us then I'm all for it

And it's an excellent point at that. Bill clearly will have contradicted himself if he goes out an trades for Burgess. Then again, the guy is certainly more established than any rookie. IDK, I'd rather have a guy with potential than a proven but wasteland dwelling conversion project.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nalej View Post
Yea, except that there were still OLBs available in the 2nd.
We drafted a S, a CB, a back up NT and a project RT in the 2nd.
You telling me that he's willing to take a project and a backup but refuses to draft an OLB that isn't D. Ware?
Then he'll NEVER draft an OLB then, if that's the case.

I wasn't talking about just the 1st rd- it's about EVERY round.
We didn't draft ONE olb in this draft when its clearly our weak spot
When asked about that- he responded with (paraphrasing)- They were all too short. No 6'4 or 6'5 guys.
If height is the reason why he didn't use a 2nd rd pick on an OLB
then what's the point of trading for an OLB who is too short by BB standards?

That's my point.
It's whateva though.
I don't really agree with that height comment anyways.
I just want our pass rush improved
if Burgess would do that for us then I'm all for it
You can stick a project on the practice squad, and still develop them. You can't do that with a first or second rounder (or 3rd or 4th). It takes a rare talent to be able to come in and play in that defense right out of college. And if they can't pick it up in OTA's and early in Training Camp, the Patriots are forced to put them on IR.

Belichick is not going to waste any time teaching fundamentals to linebackers. This is something he stresses over and over again. Unless there's a complete, total package, stud, the Patriots are not going to make a big investment in a rookie linebacker. The reason that defense has been so successful is that they're able to focus on working on advanced philosophies and looks that other teams can't do. They're able to do this because their linebackers already know their job completely and still have a willingness and ability to pack more complicated information in their brains.

I don't know if you were calling Burgess a project or not, but he really isn't. He's played a 3-4 OLB role before and, like I said, the dude is a beast if the other people around him are doing their jobs.

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Old 05-26-2009, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FlyingElvis View Post
And it's an excellent point at that. Bill clearly will have contradicted himself if he goes out an trades for Burgess. Then again, the guy is certainly more established than any rookie. IDK, I'd rather have a guy with potential than a proven but wasteland dwelling conversion project.
So you would rather Chad Jackson over Randy Moss....;)

Just kidding...I get what you're saying. I wouldn't buy too much into what BB says to the media though. He never gives out a ton of information, and when he does it isn't always true.
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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So you would rather Chad Jackson over Randy Moss....;)

Just kidding...I get what you're saying. I wouldn't buy too much into what BB says to the media though. He never gives out a ton of information, and when he does it isn't always true.
lol. Yeah, I must have missed the years where Burgess was considered to be a candidate for GOAT. ;)



That and Chad Jackson is just misunderstood.
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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What do yous all think about Greg Ellis for a year if the Cowboys cut him. At 34 I wouldn't give anything up for him but for a one year deal he could still be successful. At least until next year's draft when the Patriots draft Greg Hardy and him and Shawn Crable get 30 sacks each for the next ten years.
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Old 05-26-2009, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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At least until next year's draft when the Patriots draft Greg Hardy and him and Shawn Crable get 30 sacks each for the next ten years.
Greg Hardy as a Pat = Me fainting on draft day. If he can stay healthy and put up a monster senior year, he will be off the board very quickly though. Hardy and Crable would be two serious athletes going after the QB with Adailus having a couple more years left in him and hopefully one of Woods/Redd being able to step up.
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