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Old 05-25-2009, 06:37 PM    (permalink
the decider13
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
I never expect a poor performance from Bradford but I agree that, considering how terrible every OU linemen other than Trent Williams played, Bradford had a good game. People tend to act like Florida had a run of the mill SEC defense last year but the fact is that Florida had a defense almost on par with USC's, if you ask me, and not many quarterbacks could have done as well as Bradford against them.
Florida's defense was insane...The other SEC defenses probably sat around and talked about how awesome Florida's defense was lol
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Old 05-25-2009, 06:50 PM    (permalink
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Considering at least 8 of the defensive starters for the Gators in last year's NC will be mid to high round draft picks, ( I'm being conservative about that number 8), Bradford's performance IMO wasn't that bad.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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hmm, you make a good argument. I'm convinced. I don't think he's worth a first rounder.
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Old 05-25-2009, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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I see we're starting the overanalysis of Bradford really early.
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:28 PM    (permalink
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BigBanger, if Bradford is nowhere near the top QB prospect, then who is?
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:38 PM    (permalink
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I see we're starting the overanalysis of Bradford really early.
If you are in the minority that is very skeptical of Bradford, then you are probably the only one who is analyzing him.

I have wasted a lot of time in the past watching top rated QBs, only to find huge flaws in their game, and the bash the living hell out of them... mostly because I hate watching poor QB play, and if people are saying so and so is a top rated player, and I watch Andre Woodson and come away thinking... WTF are these morons talking about? I'm gonna let it be known, because assholes like that, that have no NFL future just wasted my time.

Brian Brohm was so average it made me sick. Brady Quinn was so average it made me sick. Andre Woodson had more holes in his game than the Iraqi Navy, but some morons stuck in the top 10 of Mock Drafts. Some people thought that worthless little ****, Colt Brennan was the exception and would be a first round pick even though he has horrible arm strength and very low delivery. Not to mention his system inflated his numbers, and his numbers were the only reason people knew who he was.

Sam Bradford hasn't even be scouted yet, because if he was, people would start to see a guy that just doesn't do much of anything other than watch his receivers pile up the YAC.

Don't let me convince you he's terrible. Listen to my points, then watch him with what I've said in mind and see if it sounds crazy.
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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BigBanger, if Bradford is nowhere near the top QB prospect, then who is?
In the upcoming draft?

Sneed looks like he has the most potential. First round potential that is. I don't know if he's going to be a high first round pick, and I need to see a lot more out of him, but right now, he's the only guy that makes me think a first round draft choice should be possible.


I was very high on Stafford last year (1st overall). I really liked Sanchez as well (5th overall). I think Freeman is a 4th round type guy, so I didn't like him and I think he could be a big bust in Tampa.

Matt Ryan is getting a little overrated, but he was every bit a top 5 prospect.

I like some QBs, but they get overhyped and overrated every single year.
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:46 PM    (permalink
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I really like Tim Hiller out of Western Michigan. Doesn't face top notch competition but he's a very smart quarterback in the pocket, has good overall intangibles and a pretty good arm.
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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I really like Tim Hiller out of Western Michigan. Doesn't face top notch competition but he's a very smart quarterback in the pocket, has good overall intangibles and a pretty good arm.
I'm with you there. Tim Hiller and Rusty Smith are both going to be intriguing QB prospects come draft time
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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If you are in the minority that is very skeptical of Bradford, then you are probably the only one who is analyzing him.

I have wasted a lot of time in the past watching top rated QBs, only to find huge flaws in their game, and the bash the living hell out of them... mostly because I hate watching poor QB play, and if people are saying so and so is a top rated player, and I watch Andre Woodson and come away thinking... WTF are these morons talking about? I'm gonna let it be known, because assholes like that, that have no NFL future just wasted my time.

Brian Brohm was so average it made me sick. Brady Quinn was so average it made me sick. Andre Woodson had more holes in his game than the Iraqi Navy, but some morons stuck in the top 10 of Mock Drafts. Some people thought that worthless little ****, Colt Brennan was the exception and would be a first round pick even though he has horrible arm strength and very low delivery. Not to mention his system inflated his numbers, and his numbers were the only reason people knew who he was.

Sam Bradford hasn't even be scouted yet, because if he was, people would start to see a guy that just doesn't do much of anything other than watch his receivers pile up the YAC.

Don't let me convince you he's terrible. Listen to my points, then watch him with what I've said in mind and see if it sounds crazy.
I watched your video earlier, I saw 5 NFL caliber throws in it, of which Bradford completed 3 in very impressive fashion:

1) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.
2) Double coverage on Gresham, Bradford splits the double and puts the ball in Gresham's breadbasket.
3) Seam route to Gresham in 1-on-1 coverage, Bradford places the ball perfectly so that only Gresham has a shot at it, goes for a TD.
4) Deep post to Manuel Johnson, Bradford hits it in stride, goes for a TD as a result. Bradford places that throw any differently, it's an incompletion, interception, or best case, a catch for a long gain but no TD.
5) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.

As for your criticism that he dumps off too much, the Colts throw to their RBs in the flats a lot, and the Patriots run a ton of WR screens, does that make Peyton Manning and Tom Brady terrible QBs?
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Old 05-25-2009, 08:59 PM    (permalink
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So that has nothing to do with the Big XII offenses? And why are you talking about SEC defenses? Did I ever say they weren't the best?
No, you didn't say that and I didn't say you did. You did say they were very good, which they're not. Either that or you have very low standards.

And yes, the offenses have a big impact on the poor defenses since offenses are so spread out that they can dictate the coverages and tie the hands of a D coordinator into playing simple Cover 2 man under schemes that don't bring any pressure or give QBs different looks.

I was just showing you how much better the SEC is than the Big XII. When you consider Bradford had, by far, the worst game of his career against an SEC defense, which was the only legit defense he faced all year long, it should be something to consider. You don't have to if you don't want to.

Just consider how much better the SEC is compared to the Big XII. Then consider just how much better the Detroit Lions defense is than the best defenses the college game has to offer.

Bradford is going to see defensive packages he's never seen before because his system creates so many easy match ups. He's not going to have those easy reads with one-on-one match ups all game long. He is underdeveloped. It's not his fault. It's the system. It kills the growth of a QB.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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I will say this about that Youtube clip - that Texas Tech defense can't run or tackle for their lives.

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I have wasted a lot of time in the past watching top rated QBs, only to find huge flaws in their game, and the bash the living hell out of them...I'm gonna let it be known.
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And hell, I kinda agree with you. I really like Sam Bradford and want him to do well. But with an objective eye, no, I don't think he's a first round talent and he leaves me with a lot of questions. I agree with the vast majority of your points - I think you're right about his accuracy, but for the wrong reasons.

What I think is his biggest problem for the NFL is his throwing style. And I don't mean the sidearm. I like the sidearm. I don't know what all the fuss is about the sidearm.

What I mean is the way he's always throwing flat-footed. Barely any torque from the hips. He's throwing purely with his arm. And to generate the power, he doesn't extend his arm in his release, but instead sorta whips his forearm over his elbow and his wrist over his forearm. It's a quick, compact throwing motion, yes, but the ball speed's just way too slow.

He puts more hip into the throw on deep passes, but these seem to be his most inaccurate and he seems to struggle to get the ball out there.

These two things, I think, are the reasons for his occasional inaccuracy. On short passes, he's very accurate, but anywhere over fifteen yards, he seems to have problems.

He definitely stares down his receivers. He's making the read before the snap and working out the timing for the receiver he knows he'll throw to. He shows difficulty reading the field.

Also, I don't like his footwork and occasionally seems oblivious to pressure.

Besides the NC game against Florida, I'd suggest watching the Fiesta Bowl against West Virginia. WVU absolutely dominated that game and Bradford looked completely lost. WVU's defense is a weird one and Bradford seemed unable to make sense of it. And man, he got sacked like crazy.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:37 PM    (permalink
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I watched your video earlier, I saw 5 NFL caliber throws in it, of which Bradford completed 3 in very impressive fashion:

1) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.
2) Double coverage on Gresham, Bradford splits the double and puts the ball in Gresham's breadbasket.
3) Seam route to Gresham in 1-on-1 coverage, Bradford places the ball perfectly so that only Gresham has a shot at it, goes for a TD.
4) Deep post to Manuel Johnson, Bradford hits it in stride, goes for a TD as a result. Bradford places that throw any differently, it's an incompletion, interception, or best case, a catch for a long gain but no TD.
5) Comeback route to the sideline, incomplete.

As for your criticism that he dumps off too much, the Colts throw to their RBs in the flats a lot, and the Patriots run a ton of WR screens, does that make Peyton Manning and Tom Brady terrible QBs?
I didn't see some of those throws as impressive. He didn't make one NFL read the entire game and he stairs down each and every target and hits his first option on almost every pass attempt (unless he dumps it off to the RB). With that said, I'll go through the NFL caliber throws since he didn't make one NFL read. This is what scares me the most with Bradford and most people probably don't know how big of a concern it is, but he went an entire game without making one NFL read. Stafford didn't go a quarter without making an NFL read. He probably didn't go back-to-back drives without making and NFL read.

1. 12 seconds -- 9 route goes incomplete. Tight coverage on the outside. One-on-one. NFL pass attempt. High level of difficulty. Over threw target by about 5 yards.

2. 20 seconds -- 17 yard come back. Very tight coverage. Incomplete. Highest level of difficulty on any throw of the game. NFL throw. Actually a good thing that it went incomplete. Bad thing... arm strength? I wont answer that for you. I'll let you and everyone else make of that what you will.

3. 1:22 -- Seem route to Gresham. Dropped. Excellent ball placement and split the CB and S. Coverage wasn't tight and Gresham was open. Low level of difficulty. Gresham drops an easy TD. For those who don't know. Germain drops a lot of passes (had two drops in this game alone).

4. 2:25 -- Deep post. TD. Very good ball, around 45 yards in the air. Coverage was very poor. No safety help. Low level of difficulty.

5. 2:43 -- 15 yard come back from the middle of the field on the move. NFL Throw. Anticipated his first throw of the game and threw to a spot. Fairly high level of difficulty. Target was open. Threw it short. Incomplete. Arm strength?


Of those 5 throws. Only 3 were difficult in my book. All 3 went incomplete.

The Gresham TD was a blown coverage by the LB. He was uncovered and the safety came over way too late. Wide open. Not really what I would call an NFL throw. I mean, there has to be coverage. Someone has to be covering the guy.

I also don't know what pass you're talking about with Gresham into double coverage. He's hardly ever single covered in this game. He had a couple catches that were easy pitch and catch plays. About 15 yard pass that went for about 40 yards (30 seconds in). The other was 37 seconds in where Gresham sits down in a zone between a MLB and an OLB and makes the catch. This is a very easy pitch and catch. About a 7 yard pass.
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Old 05-25-2009, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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I'm not nearly as astute as you, Belichick, but I can spell "stares", "seam", and "Jermaine" correctly. Can I also e-flex now?

The top quarterbacks every year get nit-picked to an incredible degree, and it seems Bradford's turn is starting extra early. But hey, no QB ever develops past their 2nd starting year in college, so Bradford's worthless.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:37 PM    (permalink
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Brady Quinn looked average? Enlighten por favor.
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Old 05-25-2009, 10:57 PM    (permalink
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Brady Quinn looked average? Enlighten por favor.
I debated Brady Quinn for over a year. I'm done bashing him and I'm not going to get into that.

Until he proves me wrong (second round caliber QB), I'm not going to talk about him. Right now he's disappointing me and not living up to my expectations and my expectations were lower than most. He should be a capable starter.
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Old 05-26-2009, 12:48 AM    (permalink
TACKLE
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The top quarterbacks every year get nit-picked to an incredible degree, and it seems Bradford's turn is starting extra early.
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The Detroit Lions sign Matthew Stafford to a six-year 78 million dollar deal with 41.7 million guaranteed.
Well thank god for nit-picking. Taking a top QB is kind of a big deal high in the draft is kind of a big deal.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:33 AM    (permalink
Me Likey Rookies
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Some people thought that worthless little ****, Colt Brennan was the exception and would be a first round pick even though he has horrible arm strength and very low delivery.
I thought this was uncalled for.

And credit DraftParty, the greatest youtube channel of all-time, for the video in your first post.
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Old 05-26-2009, 01:50 AM    (permalink
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It's not that top picks shouldn't be nitpicked, it's just that many fans have become irrationally afraid of QB's and act as if other positions are always safe. I really have no idea about Bradford at this point, but people were really digging deep for reasons to not like Ryan and Stafford. Often people were just pulling criticisms from thin air that were totally invalid.
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Old 05-26-2009, 02:11 AM    (permalink
Bald_81
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Not gonna bash you or anything BigBanger because you do make some good points. I just have some questions as a Rams fan:

1. The Rams are installing a WCO. If they stink it up this upcoming season and are in line to draft him, does the fact that their system relies on quick reads and accuracy (Bradfords strengths) and not a really big arm (Bradfords weakness), does this make the transition to the NFL easier for him? I basically mean, will his success be optimized to the max in our offense?
2. I would like to know how you have the eligible QBs for the draft ranked this season based on this analysis. From what I can tell, you probably have Snead ranked ahead of him don't you?
3. If you would take Bradford in the fourth round, where would you take McCoy (who I'm not a big fan of)?

The one thing I will say is you talk about some of his negatives like level of competition and system, then I guess you must have had Joe Flacco as going undrafted.

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Old 05-26-2009, 04:19 AM    (permalink
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All you've proven IMO is that a QB who has the vision to find an open man, no matter how he got open, is a 4th round talent. Not disagreeing with you that he's overrated. I just think you could support it with better analysis.

Also...if you call someone a 4th round talent and they actually get drafted in the 4th round, it doesn't always mean that they're actually a 4th round talent. That's like saying Ryan Leaf is a 1st round talent and Tom Brady is a 6th round talent. Everyone and anyone who said Ryan Leaf is a 1st round talent would be considered a scouting genius with these low standards.

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Old 05-26-2009, 06:34 AM    (permalink
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I debated Brady Quinn for over a year. I'm done bashing him and I'm not going to get into that.

Until he proves me wrong (second round caliber QB), I'm not going to talk about him. Right now he's disappointing me and not living up to my expectations and my expectations were lower than most. He should be a capable starter.
he's played 1 game in the pro's without a broken hand and looked great in that game, so far the things are looking bad for you in that respect. To a certain degree i agree with you on bradford. I would like to see how he copes with the departure of that rediculous OLine in front of him. If he copes well and has a year similar to last year he deserves top 10 talk, right now he is a late first rounder to me.
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Old 05-26-2009, 06:54 AM    (permalink
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did he just diss Colt Brennan? That's just wrong.
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Old 05-26-2009, 07:45 AM    (permalink
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sam bradford sucks?
WTF is wrong with you people..
Hating on a guy because he mastered his offense really isn't a good argument.
What's wrong with a 6'4 220 QB with pinpoint accuracy thats extremely poised under pressure?
All of you chumps are overthinking his game. Sure he throws a lot of short passes, but what fuckinNFL QB doesn't?
Sam Bradford is a great QB, he's smart, knows how to manage a game, plays cool, and can make any throw he wants to.
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:30 AM    (permalink
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If people are expecting OU's offensive line to be significantly worse next year, I wouldn't hold my breath.

Granted they won't have the same amount of playing experience, but when's the last time their front five was subpar?
I can't imagine Braford will deal with much more pass rush pressure than he did the last two years.

The biggest transition will be at the WR spots, but even there I expect everyone to be up to speed in 5 games. Besides, with a QB like Bradford, if they can catch and run the proper routes, the ball will be there.

Lastly, on the subject of arm strength, some have noted he throws many balls with his upper body with very little push from his legs. This is a mechanical problem, a poor habit that can be coached and improved upon, IMO.

So wouldn''t this mean Bradford has the ability to play with a stronger throwing arm following improvements in his technique?

I know that SKins HC Jim Zorn has stated in interviews that Colt Brennan(!!) has a much stronger arm after one year in the Skins offseason weight training program, and has made significant improvements in his throwing style.
(Don't know what the last part means because he still has that 3/4-sidearm motion).

Not comparing the two, just making the point that one of Bradford's negatives, pedestrian arm strength, may not be as big a weakness as many people once thought.
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