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Old 07-24-2009, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Why didn't they adjust the offense when Plax went down? I understand that you can't revamp the entire playbook, but still. Honestly, what receiver should teams be afraid of? Who's going to command double teams the way Plax did? Who's going to take that extra safety out of the box?

Why didn't they adjust it when plax went down? No time! We keep getting week 4 bye!!!!! LOL. Can't do anything after that. Do you know what it is like week after week to prepare as a coach? You are set in your routine and don't have time to re-adjust everything! You have to just continue on. You can add a play or too, but if you managed to create a scheme for Plax's skillset, and he is not there, you're screwed! You simply have no time to do anything else during a game week.

Why do you need to be afraid of any WR? This isn't a video game! Football is a game of matchups, so all we need do now is adjust it to our existing wrs, and use our personnel packages accordingly. So it depends on the team we play, and what their weakness is. And from there we utilize our WRs and TEs accordingly.

Keep in mind we win games because we run the ball, control the clock, and play good defense. Now that we have our guys back and added extra, we will be fine.

You do realize you don't double team every single play even when plax was there. But now, teams will play man on man, probably with no double teams meaning we will force them to creep the safety down, and when they do, we can use play action or find a matchup and work it. We have the WRs, it's up to the teams to have the depth at CB.

I would be curious to see how Beckum does against the SS. He would be a great mismatch if he can stay healthy. We are not a vertical stretch offense to begin with. So what we'd probably do is throw short to intermediate routes and move the chains that way, especially considering we get 5 yard s a pop per carry.

Again it's no need to be worried, now that veteran offensive coaches have a full offseason to draft and re-adjust this passing scheme.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Bob Sanders Dreadlock View Post
According to this thread: Dallas, all the NFC south, giants, falcons, ravens, patriots, Miami, jets, houston, bears, and Cincinnati, almost half of the league. Hard to believe the colts are overrated, Manning will be starting injury free, and the offense should be enough to carry them to the playoffs.
Yep, and according to the other thread about half the league is underrated leaving it balanced in the end.
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Old 07-24-2009, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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I think the Ravens will fall back down to be a 7ish win team, not really overrated because people aren't talking them up too much. I also think the Titans and Dolphins will come back down and miss the playoffs.

In the NFC the Falcons will come back down, I could also see the Giants not living up to expectations just because.
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Old 07-24-2009, 09:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shockey+Manning=Shocking View Post
Why didn't they adjust it when plax went down? No time! We keep getting week 4 bye!!!!! LOL. Can't do anything after that. Do you know what it is like week after week to prepare as a coach? You are set in your routine and don't have time to re-adjust everything! You have to just continue on. You can add a play or too, but if you managed to create a scheme for Plax's skillset, and he is not there, you're screwed! You simply have no time to do anything else during a game week.
Doesn't it concern you a little bit that they weren't able to find a way to at least tweak the playbook? I mean, 3-4 in your last seven, including losing at home in the playoffs and never threatening to score in that game, can't be comforting.

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Why do you need to be afraid of any WR? This isn't a video game!
This has nothing to do with video games. The Eagles, for one, showed that they were petrified of Plax. Jim Johnson said that in the first game, they doubled Plax around 70% of the time. That's quite a bit. Look at the difference it made.

@ Philly- Giants won 36-31 with Plax
Eli Manning- 17-31, 191 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT
Running game- 45 carries, 219 yards, 4.9 ypc, 2 TD

@ NY- Eagles won 20-14 w/o Plax
Eli Manning- 13-27, 123 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT (Garbage time TD with 0:15 left)
Running game- 24 carries, 88 yards, 3.7 ypc, 0 TD

@ NY- Eagles won 23-11 w/o Plax
Eli Manning- 15-29, 169 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT
Running game- 32 carries, 138 yards, 4.3 ypc

Look at the games against Dallas.

@ NY- Giants win 35-14 with Plax
Eli Manning- 16-27, 147 yards, 3 TD, 1 INT
Running game- 34 carries, 200 yards, 5.9 ypc, 2 TD

@ DAL- Cowboys win 20-8 w/o Plax
Eli Manning- 18-35, 191 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT
Running game- 17 carries, 72 yards, 4.2 ypc

Look how much everything dropped without Burress.

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Keep in mind we win games because we run the ball, control the clock, and play good defense. Now that we have our guys back and added extra, we will be fine.
Despite running the ball, having great defense and killing clock, you still need effective passing. Manning's completion % dropped something like 8% and his passer rating dropped 40ish points without Burress. Eli Manning without Burress was generally not an effective passer. It remains to be seen if he will be.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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here's my take if your calling the Giants over-rated:

if it's because we lost Ward. shut up. never speak of football again. Ward was an average back who was a product of our OL and system. Bradshaw, Ware and Brown are more talented backs and will probably produce more. Ward became from under-rated, to good, to ridiculously over-rated in like, 6 games. I like him, but his loss won't effect us at all.

Now the only reason for our downfall would be WR. We dont have a true #1 which upsets me, it truly does. I was a major advocate of dealing a 2nd or so for Ocho or trying to get braylon. BUT

we've had a whole season to adjust the playbook and Eli to work with these young guns. He had maybe a month, if that, to work with Hixon and Smith in primary roles, which in the NFL, is NOT a lot of time at all.

Oh, and we're getting our best defensive player and top 5 DE Osi Umenyiora back, in case any of you forgot.
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 07-24-2009, 10:18 PM    (permalink
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here's my take if your calling the Giants over-rated:

if it's because we lost Ward. shut up. never speak of football again. Ward was an average back who was a product of our OL and system. Bradshaw, Ware and Brown are more talented backs and will probably produce more. Ward became from under-rated, to good, to ridiculously over-rated in like, 6 games. I like him, but his loss won't effect us at all.
I don't give a rat's ass about Ward. He's not good.

Quote:
Now the only reason for our downfall would be WR. We dont have a true #1 which upsets me, it truly does. I was a major advocate of dealing a 2nd or so for Ocho or trying to get braylon. BUT we've had a whole season to adjust the playbook and Eli to work with these young guns. He had maybe a month, if that, to work with Hixon and Smith in primary roles, which in the NFL, is NOT a lot of time at all.
The drop in Manning's play over the last seven games doesn't concern you at all? After all, this is a guy who you're thinking of giving $50 million guaranteed to, and he couldn't do better than 3-4? To be fair, call it 3-3. The Minnesota game doesn't count. You had two games without an offensive TD, and another one where your lone offensive TD came in garbage time with the game already decided. That doesn't concern you guys? ********.

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Oh, and we're getting our best defensive player and top 5 DE Osi Umenyiora back, in case any of you forgot.
Again, the defense and running game aren't/weren't the problem.
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Old 07-24-2009, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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I don't give a rat's ass about Ward. He's not good.



The drop in Manning's play over the last seven games doesn't concern you at all? After all, this is a guy who you're thinking of giving $50 million guaranteed to, and he couldn't do better than 3-4? To be fair, call it 3-3. The Minnesota game doesn't count. You had two games without an offensive TD, and another one where your lone offensive TD came in garbage time with the game already decided. That doesn't concern you guys? ********.



Again, the defense and running game aren't/weren't the problem.
1. I know, just addressing a generalization that's been put out there, not you.

2. It does concern me. It does a lot. BUT, i think we dont need him and a stud WR to be stellar. I think with a shorter passing game with more slants, curls and posts, Eli will be better. HOPEFULLY, Gillbride realizes this, and sticks with a power run game and a short-intermediate pass game. Again, i am scared, but we shouldn't be considered "over-rated".

3. I know, again, another generalization and people are forgetting about my Osi!
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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I'm gonna go this way...

Overrated - Vikings/Bears... Vikings are a good team but they have had no QB stability in recent years and although Jesus Christ is the second coming of Adrian Peterson I'm not sure he can carry the team all the way and if he goes down the Vikings are absolutely ******.

As far as the Bears go... They will be good, possibly playoff good, but I think people may over-estimate the impact of Jay Cutler if they can't get him a wide receiver before the season starts. Marshall/Royal/Scheffler were all great targets for Cutler in Denver.

Underrated - Broncos... For the same reason that the Bears are overrated the Broncos may be underrated. The Broncos are a good offensive team with or without Jay Cutler. Kyle Orton put up some decent numbers and started to come into his own last year as a QB and now he gets the same guys that Cutler lost plus Knowshon Moreno who I expect to be the rookie of the year.

Either way, I expect the overrated teams to compete for the playoffs but I also expect the Broncos to be an annoyance to the Chargers in the West... I expect SD to win the west but I could see the Broncos going 7-9 or 8-8 and playing the Chargers close.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
Doesn't it concern you a little bit that they weren't able to find a way to at least tweak the playbook? I mean, 3-4 in your last seven, including losing at home in the playoffs and never threatening to score in that game, can't be comforting.



This has nothing to do with video games. The Eagles, for one, showed that they were petrified of Plax. Jim Johnson said that in the first game, they doubled Plax around 70% of the time. That's quite a bit. Look at the difference it made.

@ Philly- Giants won 36-31 with Plax
Eli Manning- 17-31, 191 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT
Running game- 45 carries, 219 yards, 4.9 ypc, 2 TD

@ NY- Eagles won 20-14 w/o Plax
Eli Manning- 13-27, 123 yards, 1 TD, 0 INT (Garbage time TD with 0:15 left)
Running game- 24 carries, 88 yards, 3.7 ypc, 0 TD

@ NY- Eagles won 23-11 w/o Plax
Eli Manning- 15-29, 169 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT
Running game- 32 carries, 138 yards, 4.3 ypc

Look at the games against Dallas.

@ NY- Giants win 35-14 with Plax
Eli Manning- 16-27, 147 yards, 3 TD, 1 INT
Running game- 34 carries, 200 yards, 5.9 ypc, 2 TD

@ DAL- Cowboys win 20-8 w/o Plax
Eli Manning- 18-35, 191 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT
Running game- 17 carries, 72 yards, 4.2 ypc

Look how much everything dropped without Burress.



Despite running the ball, having great defense and killing clock, you still need effective passing. Manning's completion % dropped something like 8% and his passer rating dropped 40ish points without Burress. Eli Manning without Burress was generally not an effective passer. It remains to be seen if he will be.



It doesn't concern me that they couldn't tweak the playbook, because I coached, and I know during the season, you have no time and this is at the D3 level. Imagine the NFL level??? It's very, very hard! Why? Because when you adjust passing plays you have to adjust:

1. Protections
2. WRs routes and Depths
3. RB Routes and depths
4. TE routes and Depths
5. # of drop steps for the QB ( 1, 3, 5, or 7)
6. Progressions and reads for the QB
7. Hot routes and what not.
8. Indicate choice or option routes for CB technique AND/OR Coverage


This happens all for 1 play! Then during the week when the hell do you have time to practice this? Have you been to a NFL practice? It's very, very efficient, and fast paced. Once the airhorn blows, you go to your next period! You are not wasting time with anything. If it was training camp you have an install period, but during the season, no way in hell, are you going to sit and practice and install stuff to the degree we are talking about.

Of course 3-4 isn't an ideal record, but anyone around football knows if your passing game is centered around X wr, with Plax's skill set, and then that WR is done, you can't stick another WR in there with plays designed for Plax's skill set and expect to win. That's the media and avg. fan need to understand! That's where you are getting the media and even our giants fans to some degree have a knee jerk reaction to all this.

Now... if Gilbride AND Coughlin do nothing and sit with the same plays then yes, I will be very, very, very angry and worried! But the fact we drafted Beckum and talked about adjusting the passing scheme doesn't worry me. I understand what went wrong and I understand the issues surrounding the situation. Therefore I am not worried 1 bit.

I think Manning will be fine because of the stuff i listed above. When you take away someone whose passing plays all start with Burress and his skill set, and stick him with Hixon who is no Burress, then you're in trouble. I would be very surprised if Manning was successful throwing to the other WRs in a scheme that was centered around Burress.

I expect a drop in stats and that will effect the win/loss column.
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Old 07-25-2009, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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I think the Eagles are being overrated quite a bit. I think they should be a solid football team, and one of the better teams in the NFC South. But I think the addition of Jason Peters has been overrated. As good as Peters can be at times, he was below average last year. He can try to assign some of the sacks he has been credited with giving up to others. But when I watched him last season, he was repeatedly beat off the edge and looked very slow in the running game. He was certainly not the force we all saw in 2007. I think he can rebound and play comptently. But will he become the dominant force he was in 2007? Remains to be seen.

The loss of Brian Dawkins will hurt from a leadership standpoint. I think Demps, and the addition of Sean Jones will allow for the Eagles to continue to play well on defense. But Dawkins was the emotional leader of the defense, and his energy will be missed.

McNabb is always a question mark. Will he play like a top five QB or be erratic? The addition of Maclin could help but I think he will impact special teams more this year than the passing game. Westbrook's injury concerns also cannot be overlooked when judging the Eagles.

I know some people are also pointing to the loss of Jim Johnson. I actually like Sean McDermott. I had him as one of the top guys that I wanted for the open DC position for my team. I like the guy we chose better. But I think McDermott is an up and coming defensive mind who has years of experience working under Johnson. I think he'll bring Johnson's intensity to the game, and should also be able to recapitulate his scheme quite well. Where I do think he might struggle is having Johnson's wisdom to make the right call in certain situations. But I expect him to grow in this regard with experience.

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Old 07-25-2009, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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Not trying to sound like an asshole, but every year the saints have a new cornerback or new linebacker or several new draft picks or a new coach who's going to change things.

I'll agree a lot of pieces of the puzzle have been added, largely due to the previous years drafting and signing so I expect an improvement, but I don't think you can simply be given benefit of the doubt, due to the track record.



A few years ago Tom Brady never threw more than 28 touchdowns, DeAngelo Williams never had more than 500 yards and Jay Cutler was a bronco.

We american football dude.

Keep in mind last year the Carolina backfield as a unit produced over 5 yards per carry...

Carolina line ranked first in both conversions on short yardage running plays with a 79 percent conversion rate and in percentage of yardage gained beyond 10 yards. In other words even in obvious running situations 4/5 times the Panthers converted and more often than anyone in the league one of the backs popped a run for more than 10 yards.

This is with the starting offensive line only having 7 games as a complete unit.

Behind Otah a rookie there was a DVOA average of 4.6ypc off right tackle.

Their sacks allowed was good enough for 9th in the league.

With a great offensive line and running game, not to mention a top 5 receiver and solid defense it's hard to see Carolina having a losing season.
So, if I am reading this right, you are suggesting that *** Ork Wang that track record matters with the Saints but, at the same time, are saying that track record should not matter with the Panthers? I think both teams have to figure out if they can get beyond their history.

The Saints must prove that the new additions on defense along with the presence of Gregg Williams can finally get them over the hump. My belief is that it will. If that defense is "only" marginally improved, they are a likely playoff team. For all their poor defense, they lost 6 games by a total of 18 points, and in two of those games they had missed FGs at the end, which cost them a victory. So any improvement on defense, and better play from the special teams (which they had under Hartley), should put them in position to challenge for the NFC South. That said, their schedule is daunting, and they won't have the benefit of having their starting ends for the first four weeks. The good thing is that they do have viable depth at DE, and the benefit of playing a manageable schedule for the first four weeks. They could very well walk away 3-1 going into the bye week when Will Smith and Charles Grant will return from their suspensions. I think outside of Jonathan Vilma, their linebackers are at best solid, more likely subpar. They have some young guys that they should be anxious to give a shot at cracking the starting lineup to. Guys like Jonathan Casillas, Jo Lonn Dunbar and Anthony Waters might prove more athletic in Gregg Williams' blitzing style of defense than Scott Shanle and Scott Fujita. But even with subpar backs, the team's biggest achilles heel has been their pass defense. They got to the NFC championship with Fred Thomas as a starting corner and Josh Bullocks/Jay Bellamy/Omar Stoutmire as their safeties. To take it a step further, Brian Young was their starting 3-tech. Now, they have Sedrick Ellis in his position, and have added Malcolm Jenkins, Darren Sharper, Jabari Greer and Tracy Porter (who played very well as a rookie). So, you have to think that if Williams can get this group clicking early, they can be very successful. On paper, they do look good and as though they will be a contender. Of course, the game is played on the field--a place where the Saints have found ways to underachieve the last couple of seasons (hough in their defense they were injury-riddled last year).

The Panthers must prove they can have back-to-back winning seasons, less they become the new Atlanta Falcons. In their favor, they have 21 starters returning. Of course, they have brought as many starters back in years' past and still found having success in back-to-back seasons daunting. It is up to John Fox to motivate these guys. But I think that while they have solid starting lineups, a large part of their issues are depth as it is for most teams. This past season, Carolina was pretty much injury-free. I hope they can continue to have that fate though we know in this business that is not always realistic. The other question marks are at QB. What Jake Delhomme will we get? There is the guy who can manage games for you as long as you are running the football instead of depending on him to win games. On the other hand, there is the guy who can be erratic, sometimes even when the Panthers are winning. The offensive line is stout but outside of Duke Robinson, there are some depth issues that could haunt the Panthers should one of its starting linemen go down with a significant injury. Finally, can Richard Marshall replace Ken Lucas? I believe he can and will. He's scrappy, and, to me, has been one of the better nickel cornerbacks in the league. My concern, however, is whether or not Sherrod Martin can replace Marshall. I know that John Fox will have him prepared. But I do not know if it will be enough in year one to make a seamless transition from Lucas to Marshall and from Marshall to Martin. In a league where pass happy offenses dictate running nickel coverages 60% of the game, rookie mistakes or, worse, plain poor play from Martin could hurt the Panthers chances, especially against such a tough schedule. Oh, and I did not even mention Ron Meeks who will run a similar defense to what the Panthers ran last year despite being a recent Tampa-2 disciple. How will the transition look? Remains to be seen but history has to be weighted with deference given these question marks.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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As far as the Bears go... They will be good, possibly playoff good, but I think people may over-estimate the impact of Jay Cutler if they can't get him a wide receiver before the season starts. Marshall/Royal/Scheffler were all great targets for Cutler in Denver.
I think people forget that Matt Forte and Greg Olsen are on the team as well, two dynamic players that will help Cutler out. He may not have elite WR targets but he does have talent around him that people are overlooking.
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Despite looking better against an underachieving Eagles team, I still think the Bears are one of the worst teams in the NFL. I smell a blowout victory by the Lions this week and a division sweep.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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I think the Eagles are being overrated quite a bit. I think they should be a solid football team, and one of the better teams in the NFC South. But I think the addition of Jason Peters has been overrated. As good as Peters can be at times, he was below average last year. He can try to assign some of the sacks he has been credited with giving up to others. But when I watched him last season, he was repeatedly beat off the edge and looked very slow in the running game. He was certainly not the force we all saw in 2007. I think he can rebound and play comptently. But will he become the dominant force he was in 2007? Remains to be seen.

The loss of Brian Dawkins will hurt from a leadership standpoint. I think Demps, and the addition of Sean Jones will allow for the Eagles to continue to play well on defense. But Dawkins was the emotional leader of the defense, and his energy will be missed.

McNabb is always a question mark. Will he play like a top five QB or be erratic? The addition of Maclin could help but I think he will impact special teams more this year than the passing game. Westbrook's injury concerns also cannot be overlooked when judging the Eagles.

I know some people are also pointing to the loss of Jim Johnson. I actually like Sean McDermott. I had him as one of the top guys that I wanted for the open DC position for my team. I like the guy we chose better. But I think McDermott is an up and coming defensive mind who has years of experience working under Johnson. I think he'll bring Johnson's intensity to the game, and should also be able to recapitulate his scheme quite well. Where I do think he might struggle is having Johnson's wisdom to make the right call in certain situations. But I expect him to grow in this regard with experience.
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Originally Posted by Seasonticketholder View Post
So, if I am reading this right, you are suggesting that *** Ork Wang that track record matters with the Saints but, at the same time, are saying that track record should not matter with the Panthers? I think both teams have to figure out if they can get beyond their history.

The Saints must prove that the new additions on defense along with the presence of Gregg Williams can finally get them over the hump. My belief is that it will. If that defense is "only" marginally improved, they are a likely playoff team. For all their poor defense, they lost 6 games by a total of 18 points, and in two of those games they had missed FGs at the end, which cost them a victory. So any improvement on defense, and better play from the special teams (which they had under Hartley), should put them in position to challenge for the NFC South. That said, their schedule is daunting, and they won't have the benefit of having their starting ends for the first four weeks. The good thing is that they do have viable depth at DE, and the benefit of playing a manageable schedule for the first four weeks. They could very well walk away 3-1 going into the bye week when Will Smith and Charles Grant will return from their suspensions. I think outside of Jonathan Vilma, their linebackers are at best solid, more likely subpar. They have some young guys that they should be anxious to give a shot at cracking the starting lineup to. Guys like Jonathan Casillas, Jo Lonn Dunbar and Anthony Waters might prove more athletic in Gregg Williams' blitzing style of defense than Scott Shanle and Scott Fujita. But even with subpar backs, the team's biggest achilles heel has been their pass defense. They got to the NFC championship with Fred Thomas as a starting corner and Josh Bullocks/Jay Bellamy/Omar Stoutmire as their safeties. To take it a step further, Brian Young was their starting 3-tech. Now, they have Sedrick Ellis in his position, and have added Malcolm Jenkins, Darren Sharper, Jabari Greer and Tracy Porter (who played very well as a rookie). So, you have to think that if Williams can get this group clicking early, they can be very successful. On paper, they do look good and as though they will be a contender. Of course, the game is played on the field--a place where the Saints have found ways to underachieve the last couple of seasons (hough in their defense they were injury-riddled last year).

The Panthers must prove they can have back-to-back winning seasons, less they become the new Atlanta Falcons. In their favor, they have 21 starters returning. Of course, they have brought as many starters back in years' past and still found having success in back-to-back seasons daunting. It is up to John Fox to motivate these guys. But I think that while they have solid starting lineups, a large part of their issues are depth as it is for most teams. This past season, Carolina was pretty much injury-free. I hope they can continue to have that fate though we know in this business that is not always realistic. The other question marks are at QB. What Jake Delhomme will we get? There is the guy who can manage games for you as long as you are running the football instead of depending on him to win games. On the other hand, there is the guy who can be erratic, sometimes even when the Panthers are winning. The offensive line is stout but outside of Duke Robinson, there are some depth issues that could haunt the Panthers should one of its starting linemen go down with a significant injury. Finally, can Richard Marshall replace Ken Lucas? I believe he can and will. He's scrappy, and, to me, has been one of the better nickel cornerbacks in the league. My concern, however, is whether or not Sherrod Martin can replace Marshall. I know that John Fox will have him prepared. But I do not know if it will be enough in year one to make a seamless transition from Lucas to Marshall and from Marshall to Martin. In a league where pass happy offenses dictate running nickel coverages 60% of the game, rookie mistakes or, worse, plain poor play from Martin could hurt the Panthers chances, especially against such a tough schedule. Oh, and I did not even mention Ron Meeks who will run a similar defense to what the Panthers ran last year despite being a recent Tampa-2 disciple. How will the transition look? Remains to be seen but history has to be weighted with deference given these question marks.
I stopped reading once you said the Eagles are in the NFC South.


As for overrated? I say the Dolphins and the Ravens.
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Old 07-25-2009, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Ravens.

Just look at Flacco's #s.
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Old 07-25-2009, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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I'ma big Pats fan but I say the Patriots.
I won't feel good until I see Brady on Week 1 do great.
That ACL is no joke and regardless of reports- I need to see to believe.
I've followed the Pats long enough to know that 95% of the things they say are BS.
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:40 AM    (permalink
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So, if I am reading this right, you are suggesting that *** Ork Wang that track record matters with the Saints but, at the same time, are saying that track record should not matter with the Panthers? I think both teams have to figure out if they can get beyond their history.
I think it's pretty clear to everyone that I was saying track record gives the Panthers the highest likelihood of having a winning season and that the unexpected should be expected in the NFL.

Yeah the Saints could turn it around, but for 5 years now it's been everyone's big offseason prediction and for 5 years it's been a flop.

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Originally Posted by Seasonticketholder View Post
The Saints must prove that the new additions on defense along with the presence of Gregg Williams can finally get them over the hump. My belief is that it will. If that defense is "only" marginally improved, they are a likely playoff team. For all their poor defense, they lost 6 games by a total of 18 points, and in two of those games they had missed FGs at the end, which cost them a victory. So any improvement on defense, and better play from the special teams (which they had under Hartley), should put them in position to challenge for the NFC South. That said, their schedule is daunting, and they won't have the benefit of having their starting ends for the first four weeks. The good thing is that they do have viable depth at DE, and the benefit of playing a manageable schedule for the first four weeks. They could very well walk away 3-1 going into the bye week when Will Smith and Charles Grant will return from their suspensions. I think outside of Jonathan Vilma, their linebackers are at best solid, more likely subpar. They have some young guys that they should be anxious to give a shot at cracking the starting lineup to. Guys like Jonathan Casillas, Jo Lonn Dunbar and Anthony Waters might prove more athletic in Gregg Williams' blitzing style of defense than Scott Shanle and Scott Fujita. But even with subpar backs, the team's biggest achilles heel has been their pass defense. They got to the NFC championship with Fred Thomas as a starting corner and Josh Bullocks/Jay Bellamy/Omar Stoutmire as their safeties. To take it a step further, Brian Young was their starting 3-tech. Now, they have Sedrick Ellis in his position, and have added Malcolm Jenkins, Darren Sharper, Jabari Greer and Tracy Porter (who played very well as a rookie). So, you have to think that if Williams can get this group clicking early, they can be very successful. On paper, they do look good and as though they will be a contender. Of course, the game is played on the field--a place where the Saints have found ways to underachieve the last couple of seasons (hough in their defense they were injury-riddled last year).
So what you're saying is you've got a bunch of guys who've been hurt a lot in the past who're young and inexperienced or over the hill under a new D coord.

Try using the ENTER key. I can't read much more than a few lines of yours without getting a headache.

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The Panthers must prove they can have back-to-back winning seasons, less they become the new Atlanta Falcons. In their favor, they have 21 starters returning. Of course, they have brought as many starters back in years' past Wrong

and still found having success in back-to-back seasons daunting Every team in the NFL finds it daunting.

It is up to John Fox to motivate these guys. He's known for being a motivator

But I think that while they have solid starting lineups, a large part of their issues are depth as it is for most teams. This past season, Carolina was pretty much injury-free. Massive issues on the offensive line only 7 games with all 5 starters on the field, there were injuries at cornerback, Beason played something like 4 games with a torn shoulder and the defensive tackle position was decimated. There were massive injuries. The team overcame.

I hope they can continue to have that fate though we know in this business that is not always realistic. The other question marks are at QB. What Jake Delhomme will we get? There is the guy who can manage games for you as long as you are running the football instead of depending on him to win games. On the other hand, there is the guy who can be erratic, sometimes even when the Panthers are winning. His stats are bad because it's a run first offense and when he is passing it's generally down field deep where the windows are smaller and the likelihood of interceptions is higher. He had one meltdown last year, the rest of the time he was a good QB, the team didn't go 12-4 because Delhomme got sick. Before this Arizona game he was known for having a knack for comebacks and in the post season. You don't throw out a decent career for one game. Sure he's up and down, but he's not a detriment for the team by any means.

The offensive line is stout but outside of Duke Robinson, there are some depth issues that could haunt the Panthers should one of its starting linemen go down with a significant injury. Wharton can play either tackle spot as can Otah and Gross, Vincent can play either guard spot and the team is bringing in Cadogan as well, there's depth and the line is flexible, we only got rid for 2 guys from the backup positions in Bridges for off field stuff and Hangartner who was a huge loss.

Finally, can Richard Marshall replace Ken Lucas? I believe he can and will. He's scrappy, and, to me, has been one of the better nickel cornerbacks in the league. My concern, however, is whether or not Sherrod Martin can replace Marshall. I know that John Fox will have him prepared. But I do not know if it will be enough in year one to make a seamless transition from Lucas to Marshall and from Marshall to Martin. In a league where pass happy offenses dictate running nickel coverages 60% of the game, rookie mistakes or, worse, plain poor play from Martin could hurt the Panthers chances, especially against such a tough schedule. Oh, and I did not even mention Ron Meeks who will run a similar defense to what the Panthers ran last year despite being a recent Tampa-2 disciple. How will the transition look? Remains to be seen but history has to be weighted with deference given these question marks.
The team has light weight, fast swarming linebackers, three defensive ends who fit in Meek's system and cornerbacks and safeties with experience in the system... It won't be an issue.

Harris and Godfrey have been in a cover 2 before, Martin played in one in college as did CJ Wilson who will see time at Nickel, the linebackers are one of the best groups in the NFL and Meeks is a master at getting good play from less than stellar players, imagine what he can do with this defense which is staffed with solid contributors.

You're saying question marks abound, but they're the same questions people had last year, which were answered resoundingly. 12-4... That doesn't go away because the team's QB has one bad game, a D Coord universally hated by the fans and a few backups leave.
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Old 07-26-2009, 06:49 AM    (permalink
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Yeah the Saints could turn it around, but for 5 years now it's been everyone's big offseason prediction and for 5 years it's been a flop.
Besides the one time they made it to the NFCC
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Old 07-26-2009, 07:59 AM    (permalink
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As far as the Bears go... They will be good, possibly playoff good, but I think people may over-estimate the impact of Jay Cutler if they can't get him a wide receiver before the season starts. Marshall/Royal/Scheffler were all great targets for Cutler in Denver.
I highly doubt Royal and Scheffler will be much of anything without Cutler. Marshall is a great talent no doubt.

As for overrated, I'll go with the Packers. Foxsports has them ranked as the 9th best team in the league, and the Bears as the 20th best team in the league. That's the dumbest ******* thing I've heard in a long time.
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Old 07-26-2009, 12:59 PM    (permalink
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I'm not a huge fan of the Ravens this season. They lost a lot, but had players that can step in. I'm just not sure those players can play like the players that left. Rex Ryan is also a top 3 DC in the NFL.

Patriots are being SOO overrated. Its really annoying. People expect Tom Brady to comeback from his torn ACL like nothing happened, but I believe its going to effect his play next season.
Clearly you don't like NE....That is fine....Overrated is a stretch. They are one of ther top teams this year. They have the best head coach in the game. Brady doesn't have to carry this team.....They were talented enough to get 10 wins without him last year......With brady you figure they win a minimum of 11 games......Actually I think they will be 12-4 or 13-3......He doesn't have to be a stud for the Pats to win!
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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Clearly you don't like NE....That is fine....Overrated is a stretch. They are one of ther top teams this year. They have the best head coach in the game. Brady doesn't have to carry this team.....They were talented enough to get 10 wins without him last year......With brady you figure they win a minimum of 11 games......Actually I think they will be 12-4 or 13-3......He doesn't have to be a stud for the Pats to win!
My concern with the Patriots is the loss of Vrabel. He was never an "Amazing" player, but he could play all 4 LB positions and had a knack for causing several teams issues.

I think their pass rush is going to be a bit stymied especially if Adalius Thomas doesn't stay healthy... again.
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Old 07-26-2009, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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The saints on this board are being given more props than any other team in the south and unjustifiably so. They've been expected to fire for a while now since their NFCCG appearance and are yet to do so.

There's no reason to expect Carolina or Atlanta to fall off. The Saints are still third in the division and Carolina and Atlanta are still two of the top teams in the NFC.
I think this guy disagrees.

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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 07-26-2009, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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The reason that I thin Atlanta falls off is due to their schedule and teams adjusting to Ryan. They're not playing Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland and Kansas City this year. Instead, they have to play the Giants, Eagles and the Patriots. Ryan had a bad December, but Gonzalez should help.
I am staying away from Turner this year in fantasy football, because of his high workload the year before and what I said before about their schedule. I don't think the Falcons are overrated, but I think they finish 8-8.
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MidwayMonster31 View Post
The reason that I thin Atlanta falls off is due to their schedule and teams adjusting to Ryan. They're not playing Detroit, St. Louis, Oakland and Kansas City this year. Instead, they have to play the Giants, Eagles and the Patriots. Ryan had a bad December, but Gonzalez should help.
I am staying away from Turner this year in fantasy football, because of his high workload the year before and what I said before about their schedule. I don't think the Falcons are overrated, but I think they finish 8-8.
I think people are too concerned about the harder SOS for the Falcons. Yes, the Falcons played a lot of bad teams last year, but it was through no fault of their own. Once given the easy schedule, the Falcons did what any other good team would have done: stomp on the bad teams. The Falcons were a combined 255-175 in 9 games against teams 8-8 or worse (average score: 28.3 to 19.4) and went 7-2, losing games in New Orleans and against the Broncos (both 8-8).

Even against the harder teams in the NFL, the Falcons held their own for the most part after disasters in Tampa Bay and Carolina in week 2 and 4, which can almost be expected. The Falcons were a young team and their first 2 road games were against division rivals with tough, tough defenses(despite that though, the Falcons were within 1 possession in the 4th for both games). Look at the other 3 losses.

Eagles in Philly. Ryan lead the Falcons to a 4th quarter, 84 yard drive that included a 4th and 5 conversion to bring the score within 6. The results of the 5 previous Falcon drives before that one? 4 punts and 1 interception. On the opposing possession, the Falcons defense got the ball back for the offense with about 2:15 on the clock remaining when the 'muffed' punt call happened. The PR closed in on the ball but backed away without actually touching the ball. The refs called it a fumble and Mike Smith was either out of timeouts or challenges and since it wasn't under 2:00 (15 ******* seconds off), it could not be reviewed. The Falcons let up and the Eagles scored another go ahead TD. I am not saying that the Falcons would have won that game (though I am pretty convinced Ryan could have led a GW drive), but the Falcons should have had the ball, while down by 6, with 2:00 to go in Philly. Not bad for a team predicted to get the #1 overall pick against the team that went to the NFCCG.

Broncos in Atlanta. A close game throughout, but a 4th quarter turnover by Ryan was difficult to overcome. Cutler found a receiver for a GW TD with around 7 minutes to go for a 24-20 lead. On the last possession for the Falcons, the Falcons found themselves on a 3rd and 18 when Ryan threw a perfect bomb to Roddy White for the TD, but the ball literally bounced right off of White's hands. Had that been a catch, the Falcons would have been up by 3 with 1:00 to go.

Saints in New Orleans. An even closer game throughout, this game featured many lead changes but the Falcons could not overcome the 90+ yard kickoff return (a TD following that) in the 4th quarter. After punting on a decisive 4th and 5, the Falcons defense couldn't get a stop and the Falcons lost 24-29.

Playoff Cards in Arizona. After being down 14-3 and then 30-17, the Falcons finally showed life when they drove 60 yards in 9 plays to score a TD in the 4th quarter. The Cardinals got the ball back with about 3:00 to go and the defense forces them into a 3rd and 16 situation with 2:30 to go. On the 3rd down play, Brooking bites on the underneath route and the Cardinals convert a ******* 3rd and 16 and the Falcons offense doesn't get a chance to see the ball again.

Now, it may seem as if I am just spewing out a bunch of excuses for the Falcons' losses, but that isn't the point. I am just trying to point out that even in the Falcons' losses, they showed a great amount of team chemistry and talent by never being out of a game against a good opponent. A correct call or a defensive stop coupled with an even better offense could make all the difference. [sorry for the long post. i just needed to get a lot of falcons talk out]
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Last edited by d34ng3l021 : 07-26-2009 at 05:48 PM.
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Old 07-26-2009, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Besides the one time they made it to the NFCC
Are you going to just continue to repeat what I've said?
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Old 07-26-2009, 08:58 PM    (permalink
Gay Ork Wang
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Are you going to just continue to repeat what I've said?
well in the last five years they made it into the NFCC once, its not like the Browns or something that havent done anything in forever
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