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Old 10-14-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
Halsey
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People love to go back to the Ravens team from a decade ago in an attempt to devalue QB's. There's some problems with that, however. First, why do they need to keep relying on a team from a decade ago. Secondly, rules have changed since then to benefit the passing game. Finally, if the Ravens didn't think QB was highly important why have they spent high picks and big money trying to find a franchise QB since that Super Bowl. They've drafted Kyle Boller in the first, Chris Redman in the 3rd, paid McNair 12 mill when he played for them and then drafted Flacco in the first. People saying the Ravens prove it's all about supporting cast are actually arguing against the Ravens...
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Old 10-18-2009, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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Carson Palmer: Was considered one of the Big 3 (Peyton Manning, Tom Brady and Carson Palmer) in 2005 and 2006, then had some minor injuries in 2007 along with a horrible defense and a offensive line that was about as strong and consistent as a wet piece of toilet paper. Then in 2008 had a major elbow injury that was being called an injury he would have to get Tommy John Surgery to fix, opted not to have the surgery and is supposedly 100% healthy going into 2009.

This year he finally doesn't have to score 30+ points just to be in games because his defense keeps opponents from slicing through them like warm butter and he finally has a running game that reminds people of the Rudi Johnson days of 2005. His offensive line has also gotten better but they are still not at the level they should be. Also, top pick, Andre Smith has yet to play in a single game this year at LT.

His Stat Line:
120 Completions, 203 Attempts, 1,375 Yards, 59% Completion Percentage, 8 TD, 7 INT, 78.9 QB Rating

Obviously not his best work, and obviously not even close to what people expect of him. But is this his supporting cast or is this him?

I'm stumped on Palmer. I know what he is capable of, and I have seen what he is capable of. In 205 and 2006 you would have a hard time finding a better QB then him and you could even argue him against both Peyton Manning and Tom Brady. So why has he fallen from top 3 QB in the league as just a top 10 or maybe even lower?

He is only 29 years-old, and will be turning 30 in December, which means he will still be younger than most of the top QB's in the league. In there still some things that he can correct through out the year? If you have watched him this year, you would have seen that he definitely is gaining more comfortable running around in the pocket, just watch the last 3 games of Ravens, Steelers and even Green Bay. He has also been better about his decision making from game to game. I have also not seen any flubbed throws or any ducks from him sense the Packer game. So I think his arm is getting stronger as the year goes on.

Anyway, what do you guys think?
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Old 10-18-2009, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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It's a combination of both, but I definitely think a good/great supporting cast can make up for the shortcoming of a QB.

We saw it with Rex Grossman when the Bears were in the Super Bowl. We saw it with Derek Anderson in 2007 with Derek Anderson (some people look at stats and figure he was actually good that year. As someone who saw almost every Browns game, I can tell you he was bailed out by Winslow and Edwards every other play).

I still think the most important thing to the success of an NFL franchise is the offensive line. I've maintained this line of though as long as I can remember. They keep the offense functioning. A running game and a passing game cannot flourish without good blocking.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
How many superbowls has Peyton been to? The Answer is just as many as that Baltimore defense has been to.

As for the number of high caliber QBs who've one the superbowl I'd like to see how many high caliber defenses one the superbowl vs mediocre defenses, same for running games. Having a high caliber QB is important, but having the supporting cast is just as important. Otherwise the Cutlerzz would be superbowl contenders.
The difference between Dilfer and Peyton is that the Colts make the playoffs every year, Dilfer did it once. Nobody is mistaking the Indy defense as being special, it certainly isn't rated highly.
Nobody is saying that teammates aren't important but by far and large, franchise QB's have dominated not only the Super Bowl but the playoffs as well. GM's when asked will say the NFL is a schedule/QB league. The schedule if tough, will kill off any team that isn't strong at QB including teams that are strong defensively. Baltimore has trouble being a consistent playoff team because they have lacked a decent QB for years. They had solid OL's and RB's but without a QB their playoff appearances have been spotty. On the other hand teams that have franchise QB's repeat their playoff appearance year after year no matter what schedule they draw. They carry their teams through very tough schedules unlike team that are one dimensional.
GM's have clearly shown in the draft that they realize the importance of the QB position by drafting QB's 9 out of the last 12 first overall picks. That is a 75% average. Only 25% of the time and it usually occurs when no franchise type QB is available will they draft another position with the 1st overall pick. For me this clearly demonstrates that GM's throughout pro football don't agree with your analysis.
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Old 10-18-2009, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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Great point. A lot of people don't realize that one of the separating factors of the NFL from other leagues is the schedule. You only play 16 games, and every single game is super important. If the Yankees mess up a game and lose, they have 100 other games to fix their record. If the Giants (sticking with New York here) mess up a game, they only have 15 or less to fix their record.

When you add in that a QB could single handily win or lose 3-4 games for you a year, that's a huge importance for 1 position.

However, not to contradict myself but, this is a team sport. Quarterbacks can't do it alone and teams can't do it without a QB (There are some exceptions, but not many).
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Old 10-14-2010, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Shiver View Post
I think we will have a good look at which makes the other better based on the performance of this man:



He has been a mediocre QB his entire career, he actually had "decent" stats last year. Now he will be on an offense that is:

1) QB friendly, lots of screens and quick passes,
2) Has legitimate weapons like Marshall, Royal, Scheffler,
3) Has one of the best offensive lines in football, he may not even be touched by a defensive lineman.

How much is QB performance based on the supporting cast? I guess we will find out.
Uh, yeah. Looks like we might have our answer boys.
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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Philip Rivers hasn't had his best receiver or left tackle so far this year, and he's playing the best football of his career.
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Old 10-14-2010, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Philip Rivers hasn't had his best receiver or left tackle so far this year, and he's playing the best football of his career.
Antonio Gates > Vincent Jackson
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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I think some of this is real talent from Orton. Remember that his career was already on an upward progression in Chicago, one of the worst offensive environments in the league at the time, and that a good deal of opinion formed on him was when he started as a rookie 4th round draft pick. Also it's worth noting that the Brandon he's throwing to this year is Lloyd, not Marshall

With that said, I seem to recall the Patriots passing offense really taking off around the same time Josh McDaniels became their OC (of course this also coincided with the Moss years...)
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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I agree. Orton's good. He showed signs in Chicago, but we all know Chicago's offensive system and weapons have sucked for...I can't remember when they didn't suck on that side of the ball. He was the ideal type of QB to come in and execute that offense right away.

McDaniels had a tough time adjusting to being the playcaller in his first year, but he got a **** ton better as a play caller in his second and third years.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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Antonio Gates > Vincent Jackson
I literally meant wide receiver, not pass catcher.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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I will take the QB thank you very much you can build around him later.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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coaching has to be the third option
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Old 10-14-2010, 07:08 PM    (permalink
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I literally meant wide receiver, not pass catcher.
While what you say is true that offense is loaded for with tall receivers still and Rivers is a great passer.

Floyd is filling in amazingly for VJ.
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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As much as I want to downplay Orton to defend our trade for Cutler, you can't deny what Orton is doing. He's making good decision and is accurate.
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Old 10-18-2010, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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A lot of the plays last night, he had great position but it was a perfect throw. You really can't defend a perfect throw.
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