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Old 08-14-2009, 01:01 AM    (permalink
someone447
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That doesn't make any sense. You've got it backwards. Basing your betting patterns on being "hot" is stupidity. There is nothing skillful about that at all. You can roll a 7 fifty times in a row, but your odds are still 1 in 6 on every roll thereafter.

Throwing the dice though? That certainly can be a skill. Just as throwing a curve ball just over the inside corner is a skill. Most people can't do it, but some can with regularity and precision.

So, it's not a skill if you're talking about some random guy who's just mindlessly tossing dice, but it is a skill if somebody spent hours upon hours practicing until he got to the point where he could throw certain numbers significantly more often than odds would dictate.

I know a lot of people who look real goofy trying to swing a golf club. Where the ball lands or whether they even hit it seem to be pure chance. The majority of people don't appear to have any skill whatsoever when it comes to the game of golf. With enough practice though?

The answer to this question depends entirely on who is rolling the dice.
Unfortunately that isn't possible. Otherwise dice wouldn't be in Vegas casinos.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:18 AM    (permalink
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Unfortunately that isn't possible. Otherwise dice wouldn't be in Vegas casinos.
That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying guns can't misfire because if they could, cops wouldn't carry them. Whether something exists in Vegas casinos has no bearing on whether or not a person can be skillful at it. Many people have the skills to beat blackjack and sportsbooks, win at poker...all these things exist in casinos. Like I said, not everybody is just mindlessly throwing their money around while gambling. There are many people out there who make a living at it. It may be considered cheating to manipulate the outcome of a dice roll, but that doesn't mean it's not skillful when somebody does it.

If you don't think it's possible, I don't know what else to say. They are simply two cubes that you have complete control over. They aren't ping pong balls flying around in a machine. You actually toss them with your own hand. Just like a baseball. Just like how people can manipulate a deck of cards. Like I said, when most people toss dice, it ends there. There's nothing skillful about it. But with enough practice, a human being is certainly capable of becoming skillful at it.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:19 AM    (permalink
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If he is convinced its a skill make him give you odds. Tell him you will put 5 bucks against his 7. You'll come out ahead every time.
There is no need for a person to possess all skills that they recognize as skills. I sure as hell have no skills when it comes to playing the guitar, but I can acknowledge and appreciate it as a skill. Same thing with rolling dice. I can't manipulate the damn things, but I'm not so ignorant to believe that no human being is capable of doing so.
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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That doesn't make any sense. That's like saying guns can't misfire because if they could, cops wouldn't carry them. Whether something exists in Vegas casinos has no bearing on whether or not a person can be skillful at it. Many people have the skills to beat blackjack and sportsbooks, win at poker...all these things exist in casinos. Like I said, not everybody is just mindlessly throwing their money around while gambling. There are many people out there who make a living at it. It may be considered cheating to manipulate the outcome of a dice roll, but that doesn't mean it's not skillful when somebody does it.

If you don't think it's possible, I don't know what else to say. They are simply two cubes that you have complete control over. They aren't ping pong balls flying around in a machine. You actually toss them with your own hand. Just like a baseball. Just like how people can manipulate a deck of cards. Like I said, when most people toss dice, it ends there. There's nothing skillful about it. But with enough practice, a human being is certainly capable of becoming skillful at it.
Even in sports betting, the line makes sure the casino always has the advantage. They win money on almost every game the lay odds on. In Blackjack the house still has an advantage against a card counter, the only way to actually beat the game is through collusion. A casino will never have a game that can legitimately be beaten. It is just bad business, and casinos don't make a habit of bad business.

Poker is a completely different beast. For one, in Poker you aren't playing against the house. The casino takes a rake from every hand, so they don't care whether you win or lose, they still get their money.

You don't have complete control over them due to the shape of the dice. Even rolled exactly the same way, the dice will produce different results. Go ahead and try to figure out how to beat craps, you will have as good of luck as you would trying to beat roulette.
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Old 08-14-2009, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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There is no need for a person to possess all skills that they recognize as skills. I sure as hell have no skills when it comes to playing the guitar, but I can acknowledge and appreciate it as a skill. Same thing with rolling dice. I can't manipulate the damn things, but I'm not so ignorant to believe that no human being is capable of doing so.
It is no more ignorant to say control of dice throwing isn't possible as it is to say that roulette systems don't work, both are just a fact of the universe. Without weighted dice you have the same odds of throwing a 7 as does anyone else.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Even in sports betting, the line makes sure the casino always has the advantage. They win money on almost every game the lay odds on.
Never implied otherwise. I simply stated that there are professional sports bettors out there who make a living off it. Just because the book makes money on most games does not mean an individual player can't beat the juice on a regular basis. The casino is not betting against you. They're simply raking in the pile of money that sits between the winners and losers of each game. It's not the casino you're beating when you win consistently; it's all the people who lose consistently.

This is not a discussion about casinos and how they win on every game in the house. That's both obvious and irrelevant.


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In Blackjack the house still has an advantage against a card counter, the only way to actually beat the game is through collusion. A casino will never have a game that can legitimately be beaten. It is just bad business, and casinos don't make a habit of bad business.
Ok, this is not true. With a reasonably sized shoe on down to a single deck, a card counter has an extreme advantage over the house. Problem is, most games have giant shoes which are constantly being reshuffled and card counting is illegal.

All this is irrelevant when discussing whether or not the actual act of counting cards is a skill or not. I never said that casinos don't always win at their table games.

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Poker is a completely different beast. For one, in Poker you aren't playing against the house. The casino takes a rake from every hand, so they don't care whether you win or lose, they still get their money.
Again, you're stating the obvious.

I brought up poker in response to you stating that it's not possible to be skillful at rolling dice because otherwise it would not exist in casinos.

By saying that, you implied that one cannot play a game of skill in a casino.

In other words, if you don't think one can become skillful at rolling dice, it needs to be for some other reason than the existence of craps tables in casinos.

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You don't have complete control over them due to the shape of the dice. Even rolled exactly the same way, the dice will produce different results. Go ahead and try to figure out how to beat craps, you will have as good of luck as you would trying to beat roulette.
You do have complete control over them in the sense that you hold them in your hand however you choose, you toss them with the amount of force you choose, the angle you toss them at is your choice...etc. It's all up to you to get those dice from point A to point B. With enough practice, that path can become more and more precise. Humans can be pretty damn precise with their movements. I personally have no desire to spend countless hours trying to master dice manipulation, but I know for a fact that humans are capable of it.

Same way we're capable of throwing a curve ball or skipping rocks across a lake. Dice may require a lot more time and effort to master, but there's no question it can be done.

A roulette table on the other hand, you have no control over unless you're the operator. Tough to be skillful at something that you have no control over. And there is a way to beat the game of roulette regularly. Problem is, you need unlimited cash and a no limit table. All you have to do is double your bet every time. Point is the game itself is beatable.

Again, whether or not a person can walk into a casino and cheat at craps is irrelevant. This discussion is about whether or not a human being is capable of manipulating the outcomes of dice rolls.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:03 AM    (permalink
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It is no more ignorant to say control of dice throwing isn't possible as it is to say that roulette systems don't work, both are just a fact of the universe. Without weighted dice you have the same odds of throwing a 7 as does anyone else.
A fact of the universe? Wow.

You and I and most others may require weighted dice in order to roll a given number more frequently than odds would dictate, but it is definitely possible for a human being to accomplish that on their own with a true set.

Oh, and not all roulette systems work as their supposed to. There is such a thing as a biased wheel.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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A fact of the universe? Wow.

You and I and most others may require weighted dice in order to roll a given number more frequently than odds would dictate, but it is definitely possible for a human being to accomplish that on their own with a true set.

Oh, and not all roulette systems work as their supposed to. There is such a thing as a biased wheel.
Roulette systems don't work, UNLESS it is a biased wheel. Just the same with dice. If it is a fair set of dice, you cannot control the outcome. Just like you can't control the outcome of a coin flip. Many people say they can, but it is just that your brain remembers when you call it correctly, not when you don't.
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Old 08-14-2009, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Roulette systems don't work, UNLESS it is a biased wheel. Just the same with dice. If it is a fair set of dice, you cannot control the outcome. Just like you can't control the outcome of a coin flip. Many people say they can, but it is just that your brain remembers when you call it correctly, not when you don't.
K when you said roulette system, I thought you meant the actual wheel mechanics.

You're wrong about dice and you're wrong about the coin flip. You can impose a set of rules around either of these things to negate a person's skill, but a person is capable of manipulating the outcome of either event.

Even I can make a coin land heads or tails more often than it should. Question is if there's a rule on how high I have to toss it or how many times it must flip. If you just tell me to flip it, I can toss it up and have it only flip 5 times if I want to. That's pretty damn easy.

Dice would be much more difficult. But the reality is that they are just two little cubes. They land wherever we toss them. Some tosses are more practiced and precise than others. Some people are more patient and skilled than others.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:35 AM    (permalink
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Same way we're capable of throwing a curve ball or skipping rocks across a lake. Dice may require a lot more time and effort to master, but there's no question it can be done.

A roulette table on the other hand, you have no control over unless you're the operator. Tough to be skillful at something that you have no control over. And there is a way to beat the game of roulette regularly. Problem is, you need unlimited cash and a no limit table. All you have to do is double your bet every time. Point is the game itself is beatable.

Again, whether or not a person can walk into a casino and cheat at craps is irrelevant. This discussion is about whether or not a human being is capable of manipulating the outcomes of dice rolls.
You can't control the way the dice bounces, even if you hold the dice the same way and throw with the exact same force at the exact same angle, the dice will bounce different ways, because of the way they are designed.

Every gambling game is beatable by using the Martingale system. The problem is that no one has infinite money, and almost every table now has bet limits, made specifically to counter that system.

I'm saying it is impossible to manipulate the outcome of dice rolls. Dice are designed specifically to bounce in unexpected ways.

Find a table and drop a die from exactly 12 inches up, hold the die the exact same way and do it again. Keep repeating, you will come up with each number roughly 1 out of 6 times.
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Old 08-14-2009, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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K when you said roulette system, I thought you meant the actual wheel mechanics.

You're wrong about dice and you're wrong about the coin flip. You can impose a set of rules around either of these things to negate a person's skill, but a person is capable of manipulating the outcome of either event.

Even I can make a coin land heads or tails more often than it should. Question is if there's a rule on how high I have to toss it or how many times it must flip. If you just tell me to flip it, I can toss it up and have it only flip 5 times if I want to. That's pretty damn easy.

Dice would be much more difficult. But the reality is that they are just two little cubes. They land wherever we toss them. Some tosses are more practiced and precise than others. Some people are more patient and skilled than others.
Of course you can make a die only flip over once, but that will never be allowed in any game of dice, same with a ******** coin flip where it only flips over a couple times.
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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You can't control the way the dice bounces, even if you hold the dice the same way and throw with the exact same force at the exact same angle, the dice will bounce different ways, because of the way they are designed.
Not true. A person may not be able to produce the same number every single time, but they are certainly capable of producing the same number more frequently than odds dictate. Or more specifically, not producing a specific number.

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Every gambling game is beatable by using the Martingale system. The problem is that no one has infinite money, and almost every table now has bet limits, made specifically to counter that system.
Right, I already said that.

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I'm saying it is impossible to manipulate the outcome of dice rolls. Dice are designed specifically to bounce in unexpected ways.
Dice are simple little cubes. It may seem impossible to manipulate them to bounce your way more frequently than they should, but that just isn't true.

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Find a table and drop a die from exactly 12 inches up, hold the die the exact same way and do it again. Keep repeating, you will come up with each number roughly 1 out of 6 times.
Can you do that? And since when is that how you roll a set of dice? See, what these guys will commonly do is "set" the dice. Meaning they pick them up so they are positioned in a precise way. Using very precise movements, they are able to roll the dice in a manner that keeps them on the same axis. Meaning the two numbers facing outward stay outward for the entire roll. This technique is not impossible, and is very well known. It requires great skill.
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Old 08-14-2009, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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Of course you can make a die only flip over once, but that will never be allowed in any game of dice, same with a ******** coin flip where it only flips over a couple times.
Right. Never said it about the dice, and I was just making a point that even I am capable of flipping a coin to the same side more than 50% of the time. I already mentioned that it depends on any rules involved. Obviously the further a person is required to toss the dice or flip the coin, the more difficult it becomes to manipulate the outcome.

Seriously. We're talking about a simple two sided coin and a pair of 6 sided dice. Humans are capable of a hell of a lot more than you give us credit for.

The bottom line is that tossing dice can be a skill. That is inarguable. There is nothing to argue. This stuff is common knowledge and has been for a long time. Casinos know about it and watch for it.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe this has gone on longer than it has, but i'm EASILY siding with Duck on this one. I've seen it myself countless of times, i even know of some friends that designed a make-shift dice tumbler to use during games because of a kid that would always hustle everyone.

There's videos on it, i've seen it in person, and i've even tried doing it myself. It is totally possible to manipulate dice. Rolling dice is definitely a skill.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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It can be a skill.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by tjsunstein View Post
It can be a skill.
It's a skill regardless of you being good at it or not. If you throw from a different angle/motion/strength every time, then you're skilled at changing it up. lol
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:16 PM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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It's a skill regardless of you being good at it or not.
2 a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3 : a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

You have to be able to do anything effectively for it to be considered a skill.
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Old 08-14-2009, 03:33 PM    (permalink
MetSox17
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Originally Posted by tjsunstein View Post
2 a : the ability to use one's knowledge effectively and readily in execution or performance b : dexterity or coordination especially in the execution of learned physical tasks
3 : a learned power of doing something competently : a developed aptitude or ability

You have to be able to do anything effectively for it to be considered a skill.
Yes, i agree. And you're effectively throwing out a different roll each time. So i'm right.
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Old 08-14-2009, 04:03 PM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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Yes, i agree. And you're effectively throwing out a different roll each time. So i'm right.
No. You said it is a skill if you are good at it or not. If you're not good at it then what makes it a skill? Otherwise, it's just something you do like anything else.
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Old 08-14-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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If you need a special board-not a skill.
so, i guess diving isn't a skill either? :)
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