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Old 09-09-2009, 08:00 PM    (permalink
DMWSackMachine
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Originally Posted by Saints 4 Lyfe View Post
i find that really hard to believe.
That's because you've swallowed the pill the national media is serving you regarding Romo choking under pressure. If you had actually watched for a second with an unbiased eye you would know that he is one of the very best in the game in pressurized situations. Not sure if this is true, but I saw during a telecast last year that Romo had the most come from behind game winning or tying drives in the NFL since he became a starter.

....and that's why this thread was made. To separate perception from reality.
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He was protecting his self
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From what? His leg?
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That leg has had it out for him since day 1.
"We're the quiet guys, the guys before the storm. And then we hit you."

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Old 09-09-2009, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Can't come back unless you let your team fall behind :P
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DMWSackMachine View Post
That's because you've swallowed the pill the national media is serving you regarding Romo choking under pressure. If you had actually watched for a second with an unbiased eye you would know that he is one of the very best in the game in pressurized situations. Not sure if this is true, but I saw during a telecast last year that Romo had the most come from behind game winning or tying drives in the NFL since he became a starter.

....and that's why this thread was made. To separate perception from reality.
Until Romo translates Pro Bowl regular season stats into key wins in December, he will be considered lacking as a franchise QB.

As the Cowboys main signal caller, the Cowwboys have consistently played below their own and national expectations for some reason. He's talented, but I'm sure many Dallas fans would trade stats for clutch performances and playoff wins.
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Old 09-09-2009, 08:44 PM    (permalink
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Trent Cole only had nine sacks, he led the league in plays made by an end, stops (tied with Justin Tuck), defeats, and was fourth in the league in hurries. When the opposing team ran to the left side of their line (the right side of the Eagles) Trent Cole shut them down and the Eagles ranked 5th when ran on to the left and 3rd when the other team ran behind their LT. The offense was held to less than 3.31 yards a carry in both categories. Trent Cole has 65 negative plays in 3 and a half seasons of starting. Out of this world from a DE. The only rival to that is Jared Allen with his mind boggling numbers of 79.5 negative plays over the past four years of starting.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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Trent Cole only had nine sacks, he led the league in plays made by an end, stops (tied with Justin Tuck), defeats, and was fourth in the league in hurries. When the opposing team ran to the left side of their line (the right side of the Eagles) Trent Cole shut them down and the Eagles ranked 5th when ran on to the left and 3rd when the other team ran behind their LT. The offense was held to less than 3.31 yards a carry in both categories. Trent Cole has 65 negative plays in 3 and a half seasons of starting. Out of this world from a DE. The only rival to that is Jared Allen with his mind boggling numbers of 79.5 negative plays over the past four years of starting.
Great post, he was a really inspired pick for the Eagles. Plus my mullet sporting monster gets a mention. Think playing the run, whilst being an excellent pass rusher is a massively underrated trait of a good DE.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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It's both Broken and missed tackles, part of me thinks Williams is so high not just because he's a quick shifty guy but because he's got a nasty stiff arm too.



I don't know much about BYU but is that the school that has a lot of mormons or former missionaries or something?
Alright well nevermind then, lol/

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Old 09-10-2009, 08:52 AM    (permalink
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Until Romo translates Pro Bowl regular season stats into key wins in December, he will be considered lacking as a franchise QB.
Really. He pulls a mets. Maybe it's not considered 'choking in the 4th quarter', but he chokes entire games.

Sept-Nov. 66% comp, December, 58.9%

TD/INT ratio Sept-Nov. 67/27, December: 14/19

lets not talk about the fumbles either.
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:11 PM    (permalink
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Really. He pulls a mets. Maybe it's not considered 'choking in the 4th quarter', but he chokes entire games.

Sept-Nov. 66% comp, December, 58.9%

TD/INT ratio Sept-Nov. 67/27, December: 14/19

lets not talk about the fumbles either.
Poor, poor romo, he's an adequate quarterback and has at times played extremely well, but he's probably the most hated as well.

All I know is, there's a lot of teams in the NFL who'd rather him than their current starter.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:09 PM    (permalink
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Poor, poor romo, he's an adequate quarterback and has at times played extremely well, but he's probably the most hated as well.

All I know is, there's a lot of teams in the NFL who'd rather him than their current starter.
Teams i'd start with:

Browns, Niners, aaaaaand maybe TB.

That's probably it.
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Old 09-10-2009, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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lol wut???
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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How about this.......

The Steelers will be favored for every game this season. The Rams will be underdogs every game.
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Old 09-11-2009, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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Teams i'd start with:

Browns, Niners, aaaaaand maybe TB.

That's probably it.
I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.
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Old 09-11-2009, 07:38 AM    (permalink
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I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.
But, most of those teams are 'set' for the most part with their QB's... Minnesota was the closest team i'd put in there followed by Washington, Buffalo and Denver.

I'm going to be honest here, and say, yeah, most teams would probably be like PRO BOWL QB DO WANT. but, when they get their hands on the goods, he won't produce like he does in Dallas.

Take Witten, Roy Williams, and Barber/Jones out of the equation.
Put in Issac Bruce, Vernon Davis and Frank Gore in. Does he look as good?
How about: Javon Walker, Zach Miller and McFadden?
Or: Torry Holt, Troy Williamson, and MJD?
Maybe: Braylon, Cribbs and Jamal Lewis?
Or: Michael Clayton, K2, and Caddy/Ward/Whoever?
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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As for the Meadowland wind thing. I don't think you neccessarily need a strong armed QB. It would help. Problem is when the wind is really blowing in the Meadowlands, the passing conditions are extremely difficult even if you have a strong arm.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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And?

Most fans are as baseless of their opinions as you are.

LETS PLAY A GAME.

Which quarterback career stat line is which: Eli or Pennington

Yards/Attempt: 6.4
Yards/Attempt: 6.3

Yep. So. Same Y/A... and about 10% greater completion rate... what is it? Both were running first teams... in the same stadium. One has CONSIDERABLY more arm strength than the other... Hell, they have around the same pass attempts and about the same number of starts... (although Penningtons Career is a bit longer)... Why?

Tell me BBD, what is it that makes the meadowlands need a qb with such a great arm strength?
LMAO. You seriously don't understand the benefits of having a big arm in a windy stadium? Aren't you a Bears fan? Didn't you guys just give up the farm for Jay Cutler? Don't you follow the draft and see scouts drool over arm strength? Seriously, if I need to explain the benefits of a big arm to you then i don't know what to tell you...

And if youre a stat junky, don't waste your time with me either. That stat doesn't account for screen passes. Which btw, the Jets ran a ******** of times during the Pennington era with Curtis Martin and Sanata Moss for considerable gains. The Giants contrarily, are arguably the worst screen pass team in the league and almost never run screens (im hoping that changes this year with Bradshaw getting touches).

But you would know that bc you watched the games right? Oh wait...
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.
Ugh, please no. I'd rather take Cassel 100 times out of a 100. Keep Romo away from KC. :(
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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i'm no romo fan, but that's just stupid.



fyi, in 2008, even though the jets were pretty solid overall on screen pass productivity, they were only gaining 5.9 ypa. so assuming the numbers are similar (and, without actual evidence, it's difficult to assume they were substantially better at them while pennington was there), that's still UNDER the ypa average aq quoted. which makes the above irrelevant at best.

come on bbd, i remember when you had better arguments/insight than this.
it still doesn't account for completion percentage. Chad clearly has a much higher completion percentage, and that factors in when you do a ypa stat.

bc obviously, for a missed pass, you just had an attempt for 0 yards. You can't use ypa as a baseline to show that one qb throws the ball downfield more than the other.

Its an extremely vague stat. It doesn't account for YAC either. Its just not a very good stat to use. Especially when trying to convince me that Chad Pennington throws it downfield as regularly as Eli. Come on now, im not watching the games with a blindfold on.

Anyone who's watched the Jets and Giants play regularly during the Pennington era would agree. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched multiple times in his career.
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Old 09-12-2009, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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LMAO. You seriously don't understand the benefits of having a big arm in a windy stadium? Aren't you a Bears fan? Didn't you guys just give up the farm for Jay Cutler? Don't you follow the draft and see scouts drool over arm strength? Seriously, if I need to explain the benefits of a big arm to you then i don't know what to tell you...
We gave up the farm because Jay Cutler was significantly better by both production and measurables than any quarterback we had, not because of his arm strength... i mean, ffs, Grossman had an 'arm'. Look at what that did for him... ended up backup in Texas. Would he have been superior in the Meadowlands because of it? Scouts drool over arm strength, in my eyes, the same way baseball scouts drool over velocity. Does it make sense to me? No. Why? Because superior arm strength, while nice, doesn't automatically make you a better passer. People believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. Arm Strength into Skill. Arm Strength, in a lot of scouts minds, has become the penultimate measurable. And I believe it has in your mind too.

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And if youre a stat junky, don't waste your time with me either. That stat doesn't account for screen passes. Which btw, the Jets ran a ******** of times during the Pennington era with Curtis Martin and Sanata Moss for considerable gains. The Giants contrarily, are arguably the worst screen pass team in the league and almost never run screens (im hoping that changes this year with Bradshaw getting touches).
I know that stat doesn't account for screen passes... but you have to be ******* kidding me. You're the one who hasn't watched the Giants over the same time period.

Tiki Barber didn't have 60 receptions a year going deep. Tiki out of the screen was, dangerous, and both Coughlin and Fassel used a lot.

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But you would know that bc you watched the games right? Oh wait...
actually. i do watch a lot of games. thanks. that's why i know the above and you don't.

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i'm no romo fan, but that's just stupid.
i'd agree. but that's only because i think cassel is a fluke.

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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
bc obviously, for a missed pass, you just had an attempt for 0 yards. You can't use ypa as a baseline to show that one qb throws the ball downfield more than the other.

Its an extremely vague stat. It doesn't account for YAC either. Its just not a very good stat to use. Especially when trying to convince me that Chad Pennington throws it downfield as regularly as Eli. Come on now, im not watching the games with a blindfold on.

Anyone who's watched the Jets and Giants play regularly during the Pennington era would agree. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched multiple times in his career.
Exactly, it doesn't account for YAC. Which is why it IS a fantastic stat to use. I never said he was great at throwing downfield, but what I am saying is, he's as effective in the Meadowlands as any other quarterback, and that superior arm strength isn't necessary to be successful. That's what I've always said. Watch how he plays with Ginn. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched. But it wasn't because of his inability to throw the ball. More that the Jets were bad.
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Old 09-12-2009, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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We gave up the farm because Jay Cutler was significantly better by both production and measurables than any quarterback we had, not because of his arm strength... i mean, ffs, Grossman had an 'arm'. Look at what that did for him... ended up backup in Texas. Would he have been superior in the Meadowlands because of it? Scouts drool over arm strength, in my eyes, the same way baseball scouts drool over velocity. Does it make sense to me? No. Why? Because superior arm strength, while nice, doesn't automatically make you a better passer. People believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. Arm Strength into Skill. Arm Strength, in a lot of scouts minds, has become the penultimate measurable. And I believe it has in your mind too.
You drafted Grossman in the 1st round bc he had arm strength. You went after Cutler bc of he is an elite qb with an arm. You didn't go after guys like Matt Cassell and Chad Pennington bc they don't have elite arms. Jerry Angelo is no dummy. He knows a weak armed qb will have a much harder time playing in Chicago. The Jets passed on Leinart bc his arm wouldn't hold up in Jersey. I think the Jets know more about Giants stadium than you do.

Of course you don't need a huge arm to play well in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that its not preferred. The bottom line is a big armed qb can make all the throws, and a weak armed one can't. Football is an athletic sport. It requires measurables such as arm strength. Do you need great measurables to make it in the NFL? No, but it is preferred. Thats why there are 7 rounds in the draft. The top athletes go early. Its why a CB who runs a 4.7 tanks out of the first round. Whether you like it or not, athleticism and measurables dominate the NFL. Its why rookies struggle to adjust to "NFL speed". Its why a big armed qb can throw into tighter windows than a weak armed one.

People don't believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. What they do believe in, is that guys with bigger arms have higher ceilings than guys with weaker ones. And they are right.

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I know that stat doesn't account for screen passes... but you have to be ******* kidding me. You're the one who hasn't watched the Giants over the same time period.

Tiki Barber didn't have 60 receptions a year going deep. Tiki out of the screen was, dangerous, and both Coughlin and Fassel used a lot.
A checkdown route and a screen pass are 2 different plays. Eli never played for Fassel. We rarely ever run screen plays under Coughlin.

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actually. i do watch a lot of games. thanks. that's why i know the above and you don't.
I don't watch Giants and Jets games living in New Jersey? That was cute.

But I guess maybe Eli must have played for Fassel during the time I wasn't watching the Giants. My bad. Oops.

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Exactly, it doesn't account for YAC. Which is why it IS a fantastic stat to use. I never said he was great at throwing downfield, but what I am saying is, he's as effective in the Meadowlands as any other quarterback, and that superior arm strength isn't necessary to be successful. That's what I've always said. Watch how he plays with Ginn. There's a reason why Pennington has been benched. But it wasn't because of his inability to throw the ball. More that the Jets were bad.
The Jets were bad bc they benched a good qb? Riiight. Qbs don't get benched for playing well. Use your brain.

If he was soo effective for the Jets, they wouldve never tried using every opportunity imagineable to replace him. He was much better before his surgeries, but after the injuries, the guy just couldn't throw it in Jersey anymore. Pre shoulder injury Chad was a damn good qb, but after the surgeries, he just couldn't do it anymore.

Its why they got rid of him. Its why Miami will get rid of him after this year. He's a caretaker qb until Henne (who has a big arm by the way) gets up to speed. The Dolphins don't even hide that notion. They're very open about it.

And btw, I never said he was awful. I just said he is what he is. Im spot on with my analysis of him. He can manage a game, but if you need him to come from behind down 2 touchdowns with 8 or so minutes left in the game, he can't do it like other qbs can. Bc the guy is gonna dink and dunk for 7 minutes just to get 1 TD.

And you can't win a championship with a qb who can't do a 2 minute drill. So yeah, I take nothing back of what I said of him.
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Old 09-12-2009, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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You drafted Grossman in the 1st round bc he had arm strength. You went after Cutler bc of he is an elite qb with an arm. You didn't go after guys like Matt Cassell and Chad Pennington bc they don't have elite arms. Jerry Angelo is no dummy. He knows a weak armed qb will have a much harder time playing in Chicago. The Jets passed on Leinart bc his arm wouldn't hold up in Jersey. I think the Jets know more about Giants stadium than you do.
I drafted? I get paid by the Bears to draft ****** quarterbacks? NO WAY.

Man, I should be even richer than I already am.

I didn't like the Grossman pick. I wouldn't have gone after Cassell because he's a chump. I like how you're privy to every detail on the WHY front offices passed on certain players.

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Of course you don't need a huge arm to play well in the NFL, but that doesn't mean that its not preferred. The bottom line is a big armed qb can make all the throws, and a weak armed one can't. Football is an athletic sport. It requires measurables such as arm strength. Do you need great measurables to make it in the NFL? No, but it is preferred. Thats why there are 7 rounds in the draft. The top athletes go early. Its why a CB who runs a 4.7 tanks out of the first round. Whether you like it or not, athleticism and measurables dominate the NFL. Its why rookies struggle to adjust to "NFL speed". Its why a big armed qb can throw into tighter windows than a weak armed one.
Sure. But it's only great if you can throw into a tighter window, if you could actually pass it in there... There's a difference between one that can make 'all of the throws' and one who can't... I'm there's a lot of quarterbacks, even with strong arms, who can't make all the throws? why? because the have ZERO precision. I think you're under the impression I'm a moron. Athleticism doesn't equate to arm strength. Skill doesn't equate to arm strength. Top athletes go early, no kidding, tell me something I don't know. But for the love god, why do we talk about QBs who bust all the time? QB's with great measurables, QB's with great arms that just, for the most part, suck balls... Why? Because it's been told time and time again, that the measurables that we look at aren't the key to success in the NFL... Sure, they're great, but they don't always translate into success in the "NFL speed".

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People don't believe you can turn arm strength into accuracy. What they do believe in, is that guys with bigger arms have higher ceilings than guys with weaker ones. And they are right.
And they're right. They're taking a craps shoot on their ability of their QB coach and to turn a mechanically unsound QB with accuracy issues into a QB without accuracy issues. How many QB's have we seen in our lifetime reach that 'high ceiling'. Few. Betting on a high ceiling is a joke. What people don't talk about is the Floors of these QBs. Most teams who are in need of a QB don't need one with the highest ceiling, especially in the top 5 picks, but the ones who are the most NFL ready. Watch the differences between Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco this year. Watch how much Stafford produces this year... The major difference between 'then' and 'now' is the patience and the cost of QBs. Now is not the time to waste 90mil and a first round pick on something that's not a sure bet. And what do you know? THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME. Arm Strength does not guarantee survival in the NFL, the Meadowlands, or Soldier field. If so, with my first pick, you'd see Michael Vick, Jamarcus Russel, Kyle Boller, and Ryan Leaf as my first 4 picks as a franchise in need of a QB.[/quote]

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A checkdown route and a screen pass are 2 different plays. Eli never played for Fassel. We rarely ever run screen plays under Coughlin.
I'm not talking Eli specifically here, I'm talking the giants, the Giants of New Jersey Meadowlands. And the fact that... Kerry Collins had a good, strong arm... Wait. I mentioned... how many QB's? Like, 7. From the last 40 years? Hmmm...

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I don't watch Giants and Jets games living in New Jersey? That was cute.
I thought they were the new york giants. BURRRRRRN.

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But I guess maybe Eli must have played for Fassel during the time I wasn't watching the Giants. My bad. Oops.
I'd like to consistantly make jokes about the inability of Eli, but, no, the world doesn't revolve around his godliness.

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The Jets were bad bc they benched a good qb? Riiight. Qbs don't get benched for playing well. Use your brain.
Hi. Welcome to team sports 101. There's 12 other people you can blame for someones lack of performance in this situation, I wouldn't put everything on the 'incompetence' of pennington. Sure, he looked bad. He looked real bad. The teams weren't good, they had a young quarterback who was developmental, might as well see if it changed. And guess what. Kellens has considerably better arm strength. Did anything change? Nope. They still sucked. L2Compare.

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If he was soo effective for the Jets, they wouldve never tried using every opportunity imagineable to replace him. He was much better before his surgeries, but after the injuries, the guy just couldn't throw it in Jersey anymore. Pre shoulder injury Chad was a damn good qb, but after the surgeries, he just couldn't do it anymore.
Hey. December 28th. 2008. Miami at NYJ.
Wind Speeds of up to 26 mph in East Rutherford, NJ.
Chad Pennington

22/30. 200 yards. 2 TD, long of 44 yards. To clinch the AFC East.

Yep. He can't play in the Meadowlands anymore. Not after that shoulder surgery, and spending time in balmy, but rainy, Miami, sipping cool Bahama Breezes and appearing in all those Citizen Watch ads... Wait. no... That's not the case.

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Its why they got rid of him. Its why Miami will get rid of him after this year. He's a caretaker qb until Henne (who has a big arm by the way) gets up to speed. The Dolphins don't even hide that notion. They're very open about it.
Yeah. Totally. By the time Henne is ready (if he is... I mean, they did draft a QB in the second round... Wait? Not named kevin kolb?)... I'm pretty sure he'll be about 35, Peyton Manning will be 35 by then too.. Wait... They already drafted his replacement in Curtis Painter? Some dude I thought'd be a star? They're giving him 3 years to develop and work out his accuracy issues? Wait. He doesn't have accuracy issues? He just had ****** receivers at Purdue?

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And btw, I never said he was awful. I just said he is what he is. Im spot on with my analysis of him. He can manage a game, but if you need him to come from behind down 2 touchdowns with 8 or so minutes left in the game, he can't do it like other qbs can. Bc the guy is gonna dink and dunk for 7 minutes just to get 1 TD.
I never said he was 'god'. I'm trying to tell you you don't need arm strength to succeed in the Meadowlands. You say you do. I'm giving you examples of why you don't.

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And you can't win a championship with a qb who can't do a 2 minute drill. So yeah, I take nothing back of what I said of him.
To this, I direct you to the following:

Lucky Ass David Tyree Catch.

And.

SEVEN. fourth quarter comebacks by Pennington. Sure, it's not a Manning (of Peyton), like number, but, it certainly isn't a terrible statistic.

Anyway, I'd rather have QB's who put a game away in the fourth quarter than have to in the last 2 minutes. Just an observation.
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Old 09-12-2009, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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Poor, poor romo, he's an adequate quarterback and has at times played extremely well, but he's probably the most hated as well.

All I know is, there's a lot of teams in the NFL who'd rather him than their current starter.
I wouldn't say he's the most hated, he's a good person and a lot of people respect him for that, he's also a good QB and a lot of people respect him for that, neither of those mean he isn't over-rated as a QB and that's where people who have beef with them come from.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 09-12-2009, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.
No thank you.
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Old 09-12-2009, 08:43 PM    (permalink
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I'd only add Tennessee, Houston, Jacksonville, Carolina, Washington, Miami, Buffalo, Denver, Kansas City, Oakland, Seattle, Minnesota and St. Louis. And I was being generous with some that I didn't name.
There are eight teams I count that would be better off with their guy over Romo:

New England
New Orleans
Indy
San Diego
Atlanta
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Green Bay

That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:39 PM    (permalink
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There are eight teams I count that would be better off with their guy over Romo:

New England
New Orleans
Indy
San Diego
Atlanta
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Green Bay

That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.
I'd add chicago and the giants to the list.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.
Philly wouldn't.
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