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Old 09-12-2009, 11:08 PM    (permalink
Shiver
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McNabb is getting up there in age and Romo has been just as productive.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BlindSite View Post
I'd add chicago and the giants to the list.
They would, but they would be wrong in that assessment.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:09 PM    (permalink
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There are eight teams I count that would be better off with their guy over Romo:

New England
New Orleans
Indy
San Diego
Atlanta
Pittsburgh
Baltimore
Green Bay

That's about it, all the other teams would gladly take him.
We know you hate Eli and the Giants but...really?
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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They would, but they would be wrong in that assessment.
you're right, you know more than those teams, coaches and scouts. I'm glad we cemented this fact.

I mean, I'd much rather have Romo than Eli. WHY ISN'T ELI OUR HOLDER? WHY HASN'T HE FUMBLED A SNAP? DAMMIT!

all he got our team is that heavy, uncomfortable ring on their fingers. damn you Eli
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:11 PM    (permalink
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Hate is such a strong word. And I don't hate the Giants team, they have a lot of players I wish we had. Umenyiora, Tuck, Ross, Snee, etc. etc. I just do not think Eli Manning is as good as Tony Romo. (flame war upcoming) There is no empirical reason why Eli Manning is better.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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Hate is such a strong word. And I don't hate the Giants team, they have a lot of players I wish we had. Umenyiora, Tuck, Ross, Snee, etc. etc. I just do not think Eli Manning is as good as Tony Romo. (flame war upcoming) There is no empirical reason why Eli Manning is better.
it is, I didn't mean it like that, I through hate around too much, BUT

the way you made the "well, they're wrong" argument with Romo andEli is just silly. Romo very well may be a better QB, but to say the Giants would be wrong in keeping Eli instead of having Romo is just plain old silly.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:16 PM    (permalink
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I say in a world where you could make a swap like that without worrying about extracurricular things (salary cap, media coverage, etc.) I think they would be better off making that trade; and they as an organization might think the same way.
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Old 09-12-2009, 11:24 PM    (permalink
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After that SB run by Eli and the Giants, it's hard to write him off as a JAG QB, because we as fans have seen in crunch time that Eli has a reservoir of greatness he can tap into, unlike Romo thus far.

I think in some ways Romo is a better statistical QB than Romo, yet I'm almost certain if Romo was the QB of that SB team, the Giants never would have made it to the championship game.
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Old 09-13-2009, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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Hate is such a strong word. And I don't hate the Giants team, they have a lot of players I wish we had. Umenyiora, Tuck, Ross, Snee, etc. etc. I just do not think Eli Manning is as good as Tony Romo. (flame war upcoming) There is no empirical reason why Eli Manning is better.
There's no Emperical reason why Matt Ryan is better.

Yet you chose to include him in that list.

Nice going shivs.
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Old 09-13-2009, 09:50 AM    (permalink
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There's no Emperical reason why Matt Ryan is better.

Yet you chose to include him in that list.

Nice going shivs.
He put Flacco and Ryan because of the promise they showed after only 1 season of NFL football. I guarantee Ryan will have better stats than Manning this year and probably not Flacco quite yet but soon.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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He put Flacco and Ryan because of the promise they showed after only 1 season of NFL football. I guarantee Ryan will have better stats than Manning this year and probably not Flacco quite yet but soon.
Bingo.

I mean, I disagree with Shivs fundamentally on the quality of the upgrade for the teams (mostly because i underrate Romo's ability). But, the fact of the matter is, why wouldn't he put detroit on that list? or oakland, or the jets? i mean, they, too, like the ravens and falcons, have spent lots of money on a quarterbacks in the past 3 years... I bet if this was last year, Shiv wouldn't have put the Broncos on that list...
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Bingo.

I mean, I disagree with Shivs fundamentally on the quality of the upgrade for the teams (mostly because i underrate Romo's ability). But, the fact of the matter is, why wouldn't he put detroit on that list? or oakland, or the jets? i mean, they, too, like the ravens and falcons, have spent lots of money on a quarterbacks in the past 3 years... I bet if this was last year, Shiv wouldn't have put the Broncos on that list...
I'm assuming because Stafford and Sanchez have yet to prove anything yet in the NFL, if they play as well as Flacco and Ryan they would make the list as well. The Raiders is obvious, Russell has looked like a complete bust is thus far and has to prove otherwise this season. I can't vouch for that Broncos comment so who knows.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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I disagree on Jamarcus looking like a complete bust. Everyone knew the guy was raw coming out of college, and he has shown steady improvement since he came out. He's nowhere near elite yet, but he still shows promise and has a lot of time left to improve.
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Old 09-13-2009, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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I'm just showing inconcistancy in Shiv's statement by saying, what have these guys done to prove themselves? One season, but those aformentioned (by me) were considered better prospects than Flacco or Ryan.
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Old 09-13-2009, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Vernon Davis was named a captain for the 49ers. Could be a good sign.
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Old 09-13-2009, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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The three best teams last year at preventing pressures from turning to sacks i.e, QBs able to avoid pass rushers once they get off blocks were:
Indianapolis
New Orleans

Denver

:sigh:

He was good at that :(
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Old 09-15-2009, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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I drafted? I get paid by the Bears to draft ****** quarterbacks? NO WAY.

Man, I should be even richer than I already am.

I didn't like the Grossman pick. I wouldn't have gone after Cassell because he's a chump. I like how you're privy to every detail on the WHY front offices passed on certain players.



Sure. But it's only great if you can throw into a tighter window, if you could actually pass it in there... There's a difference between one that can make 'all of the throws' and one who can't... I'm there's a lot of quarterbacks, even with strong arms, who can't make all the throws? why? because the have ZERO precision. I think you're under the impression I'm a moron. Athleticism doesn't equate to arm strength. Skill doesn't equate to arm strength. Top athletes go early, no kidding, tell me something I don't know. But for the love god, why do we talk about QBs who bust all the time? QB's with great measurables, QB's with great arms that just, for the most part, suck balls... Why? Because it's been told time and time again, that the measurables that we look at aren't the key to success in the NFL... Sure, they're great, but they don't always translate into success in the "NFL speed".



And they're right. They're taking a craps shoot on their ability of their QB coach and to turn a mechanically unsound QB with accuracy issues into a QB without accuracy issues. How many QB's have we seen in our lifetime reach that 'high ceiling'. Few. Betting on a high ceiling is a joke. What people don't talk about is the Floors of these QBs. Most teams who are in need of a QB don't need one with the highest ceiling, especially in the top 5 picks, but the ones who are the most NFL ready. Watch the differences between Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco this year. Watch how much Stafford produces this year... The major difference between 'then' and 'now' is the patience and the cost of QBs. Now is not the time to waste 90mil and a first round pick on something that's not a sure bet. And what do you know? THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME. Arm Strength does not guarantee survival in the NFL, the Meadowlands, or Soldier field. If so, with my first pick, you'd see Michael Vick, Jamarcus Russel, Kyle Boller, and Ryan Leaf as my first 4 picks as a franchise in need of a QB.



I'm not talking Eli specifically here, I'm talking the giants, the Giants of New Jersey Meadowlands. And the fact that... Kerry Collins had a good, strong arm... Wait. I mentioned... how many QB's? Like, 7. From the last 40 years? Hmmm...



I thought they were the new york giants. BURRRRRRN.



I'd like to consistantly make jokes about the inability of Eli, but, no, the world doesn't revolve around his godliness.



Hi. Welcome to team sports 101. There's 12 other people you can blame for someones lack of performance in this situation, I wouldn't put everything on the 'incompetence' of pennington. Sure, he looked bad. He looked real bad. The teams weren't good, they had a young quarterback who was developmental, might as well see if it changed. And guess what. Kellens has considerably better arm strength. Did anything change? Nope. They still sucked. L2Compare.



Hey. December 28th. 2008. Miami at NYJ.
Wind Speeds of up to 26 mph in East Rutherford, NJ.
Chad Pennington

22/30. 200 yards. 2 TD, long of 44 yards. To clinch the AFC East.

Yep. He can't play in the Meadowlands anymore. Not after that shoulder surgery, and spending time in balmy, but rainy, Miami, sipping cool Bahama Breezes and appearing in all those Citizen Watch ads... Wait. no... That's not the case.



Yeah. Totally. By the time Henne is ready (if he is... I mean, they did draft a QB in the second round... Wait? Not named kevin kolb?)... I'm pretty sure he'll be about 35, Peyton Manning will be 35 by then too.. Wait... They already drafted his replacement in Curtis Painter? Some dude I thought'd be a star? They're giving him 3 years to develop and work out his accuracy issues? Wait. He doesn't have accuracy issues? He just had ****** receivers at Purdue?



I never said he was 'god'. I'm trying to tell you you don't need arm strength to succeed in the Meadowlands. You say you do. I'm giving you examples of why you don't.



To this, I direct you to the following:

Lucky Ass David Tyree Catch.

And.

SEVEN. fourth quarter comebacks by Pennington. Sure, it's not a Manning (of Peyton), like number, but, it certainly isn't a terrible statistic.

Anyway, I'd rather have QB's who put a game away in the fourth quarter than have to in the last 2 minutes. Just an observation.
wow. this post had all kinds of fail in it.

my favorite part was how you mentioned they are the New York Giants, and took a jab at how I mentioned how i watch them every week living in Jersey. Bc you know, its not like the stadium is in Jersey....

Or that Jersey gets all the Giant games on TV...
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
wow. this post had all kinds of fail in it.

my favorite part was how you mentioned they are the New York Giants, and took a jab at how I mentioned how i watch them every week living in Jersey. Bc you know, its not like the stadium is in Jersey....

Or that Jersey gets all the Giant games on TV...
u do know that it was a joke...
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by *** Ork Wang View Post
u do know that it was a joke...
doesn't matter, there are so many things i could attack in that post but its not worth the time.

we're just wasting bandwidth.

she seems to be a stat lover, so we're naturally gonna disagree on a lot of things, seeing that i hate stats in football.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
doesn't matter, there are so many things i could attack in that post but its not worth the time.

we're just wasting bandwidth.

she seems to be a stat lover, so we're naturally gonna disagree on a lot of things, seeing that i hate stats in football.
Because stats tell you nothing about how a game is played? How players play?
Man, that Eli Manning's stats are awful, but he's so good as a QB.

I'm not a stat lover by any stretch of imagination. I'm passionate about the offensive line and defensive line play of teams, what stats do you use with that? Not much. I like integrating stats into thoughts to at least provide numerical context to what I say. I understand that stats in football are not like stats in baseball, that the possibilities of the game are more along the lines of 11! than the 18 possible end scenarios of a pitch event (k, strikeout, popup, ground ball, flyball, line drive, bloop, ball, walk, hit batsman, passed ball, wild pitch, foul, balk, pinch hit, relief pitching, home run, ground rule double, and rain delay). I realize that stats are the bane of your existence, but you're also trying to prove to me that you're more knowledgeable than I am in a purely subjective matter. I'm trying to add some more concrete proof of my correctness at your commonly held fallacy. Can't fault me in that.

As far as being sarcastic about you watching jets and giants game. That's my intention to be sarcastic, but to call my post 'all sorts of fail' is indeed a bunch of ****.

You give this line.

Quote:
Hey. December 28th. 2008. Miami at NYJ.
Wind Speeds of up to 26 mph in East Rutherford, NJ.
Chad Pennington

22/30. 200 yards. 2 TD, long of 44 yards. To clinch the AFC East.
I don't know if you watched that game. Pennington. Threw. Into. The. Wind.

And did just fine. THROWING. INTO. THE. WIND.

Sure, I'll concede that having a great arm will allow you to throw much further in the wind. But, no one's throwing 40 yards in 30mph wind anyway, because there's NO accuracy and it becomes a jump ball. How many games where the wind is over 35 mph do you see tons of passing? Ask the Steelers. Ask the Bears. Ask the Browns. So, having that 'arm' to pass in windy conditions are moot. In 10-20mph winds, Pennington could excel, in 25mph conditions, no one really has any better shot when you're throwing a .9 pound ball 40 yards with a 30 mph wind coming from the corner of an endzone or from one of the sidelines...

That's not stats. That's physics.
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Old 09-15-2009, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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Because stats tell you nothing about how a game is played? How players play?
Man, that Eli Manning's stats are awful, but he's so good as a QB.

I'm not a stat lover by any stretch of imagination. I'm passionate about the offensive line and defensive line play of teams, what stats do you use with that? Not much. I like integrating stats into thoughts to at least provide numerical context to what I say. I understand that stats in football are not like stats in baseball, that the possibilities of the game are more along the lines of 11! than the 18 possible end scenarios of a pitch event (k, strikeout, popup, ground ball, flyball, line drive, bloop, ball, walk, hit batsman, passed ball, wild pitch, foul, balk, pinch hit, relief pitching, home run, ground rule double, and rain delay). I realize that stats are the bane of your existence, but you're also trying to prove to me that you're more knowledgeable than I am in a purely subjective matter. I'm trying to add some more concrete proof of my correctness at your commonly held fallacy. Can't fault me in that.

As far as being sarcastic about you watching jets and giants game. That's my intention to be sarcastic, but to call my post 'all sorts of fail' is indeed a bunch of ****.

You give this line.



I don't know if you watched that game. Pennington. Threw. Into. The. Wind.

And did just fine. THROWING. INTO. THE. WIND.

Sure, I'll concede that having a great arm will allow you to throw much further in the wind. But, no one's throwing 40 yards in 30mph wind anyway, because there's NO accuracy and it becomes a jump ball. How many games where the wind is over 35 mph do you see tons of passing? Ask the Steelers. Ask the Bears. Ask the Browns. So, having that 'arm' to pass in windy conditions are moot. In 10-20mph winds, Pennington could excel, in 25mph conditions, no one really has any better shot when you're throwing a .9 pound ball 40 yards with a 30 mph wind coming from the corner of an endzone or from one of the sidelines...

That's not stats. That's physics.
omg, you still won't let it go?

first off, every stat in football doesn't tell the whole story, so while i understand using stats to make a point, its shakey at best considering any stat doesn't take into consideration scheme, line play, skill position talent, miscommunication on routes, etc.

to throw YPA stats at me like its the gospel is pretty foolish.

i never said i know more about football than you, but I do know I know more about Chad Pennington than you. Theres a difference. I watched him every sunday for 5 plus years. You seen him once a season (at best) for the past 5+ years.

Yes, I did watch that game. Funny you mention it. Bc both qbs looked pretty awful in that game. Pennington just happened to suck less. He had a couple of open WRs down field and missed them. He shouldve had 300 yards easy. The Jets gave him the deep ball all day.

You know why? BC HE CANT THROW IT. Mangini knew it. He coached the guy.

I'll give you a specific example. They ran 1 wildcat play where Chad threw to a wide open WR downfield and missed him completely. That right there wouldve sealed the game. But he screwed it up. Luckily Brett gave them the game.

They only won 24-17 after Brett threw 3 INTs, 1 for a TD btw. Chad was the same old Chad he always was in Jersey. His stat line made him look sooo much better than how he really played.

You act like Im saying Chad sucks. Chad doesn't suck, but he's not a qb you can win a SB with. Thats all there is to it.

If you want a caretaker qb who will do a decent job while you build your team for the future, go ahead and get Chad. But if you want a legit chance at the SB, you need a qb who can run a 2 minute drill.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Chad can throw into the wind just fine, it's just that it comes back and hits him in the face sometimes.
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Old 09-15-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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tball than you, but I do know I know more about Chad Pennington than you. Theres a difference. I watched him every sunday for 5 plus years. You seen him once a season (at best) for the past 5+ years.
Welcome to 2009. I wrote a huge TL DR in that I have the power of the internets to help me record every game. Ever. So. To say I haven't watched a TON of games is incredibly naive. I decided to cut down of every team i watch on a regular basis, how i have tv feeds from most games over the past 8 years... blah blah blah tldr.


Quote:
Yes, I did watch that game. Funny you mention it. Bc both qbs looked pretty awful in that game. Pennington just happened to suck less. He had a couple of open WRs down field and missed them. He shouldve had 300 yards easy. The Jets gave him the deep ball all day.
Do you understand what your saying? The jets gave him the deep ball, and he connected with Fasano and Ginn in the end zone for 20+ yards on each toss. He can't throw deep, BUT HE DID. That's what I don't get, I'm using empirical evidence, and you're trying to discount the events of the game? I remember the Wildcat play where Ronnie pitched the ball to Chad, Chad put it up to Ricky Williams... Ricky also didn't give him any favors on that play either... Didn't pay close attention to where the ball was and the play at hand. Subsequently, the ball followed where Ricky should have been, and ricky kept running. Second Quarter, Pennington went deep right and delivered the ball to Ginn in the end zone. Deep. Right. Up until that point (fyi, i got out my game binder so i'm not just rattling off what i remember), there were 3 short pass incompletions on two quick routes and one dumpoff pass. There were 5 short-mid range passes in the second quarter, and then when they went no huddle with about 4 minutes left to keep the tempo up, he hits 3 passes in a row, finishing with Ginn on a post route to the endzone. Yes, he threw it all 27 yards. In the wind. Then there was the Fleaflicker to Ginn down the middle that, i think he threw for 40 yards. Ginn got an extra 4 yards as he was coming down. And then again he went to Fasano who made a spetacular catch in the end zone. For 20 yards.

Most of his incompletions were under ten yards (5 of the 8 were under ten yards). He had 3 deep completions. Missed 3 times deep (one on that aformentioned wildcat play). So, he threw 50% on the deep ball. Not too bad.

Quote:
They only won 24-17 after Brett threw 3 INTs, 1 for a TD btw. Chad was the same old Chad he always was in Jersey. His stat line made him look sooo much better than how he really played.
They actually only had 7 points off of an interception. His first interception, The fins stalled through 6 minutes on the clock, gaining 55 yards, and punting. Merlin took one back for 6 in the second. His third pick came in the 4th giving the dolphins time to run the clock out with 5 minutes, they punt with under a minute to go.

Quote:
You act like Im saying Chad sucks. Chad doesn't suck, but he's not a qb you can win a SB with. Thats all there is to it.

If you want a caretaker qb, go ahead and get Chad. But if you want a legit chance at the SB, you need a qb who can run a 2 minute drill.
Why the 2 minute drill? I think that's arbitrary to the case. Sure, it's nice. But, i'd take 4th quarter comebacks over 2 minute drills any day. I also disagree that you need to have a QB who's great at 2 minute drills to have a legit chance at the superbowl. Sure, the last 2 of 3 games were close, and were decided in the last 5 minutes, not in the last 2 minutes. The last 2 minutes of the aformentioend Giants victory over the Patriots, were actually watching Tom Brady, the master of the 2 minute drill, not pull one off. So. I don't know how valid that nugget of information you choose to impart on the impressionable masses is... but, it's wrong.
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