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Old 04-28-2010, 04:30 PM    (permalink
Go_Eagles77
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Originally Posted by Morton View Post
Remember 2003 when we moved up to #15 to select a DE named Jerome McDougle? And immediately after that at #16 a safety was selected whose name was Troy Polamalu?

The safety turned out to be a pretty decent player. The DE? Not so much.

This draft felt eerily similar to me. Let's just hope it doesn't turn out the same way.
We didn't exactly need a safety that year with Brian Dawkins in his prime and a young Michael Lewis already on the team.
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Old 04-28-2010, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Remember 2003 when we moved up to #15 to select a DE named Jerome McDougle? And immediately after that at #16 a safety was selected whose name was Troy Polamalu?
So that automatically means that Graham will bust and Thomas will be a stud? Tremendous logic.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:30 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Morton View Post
Remember 2003 when we moved up to #15 to select a DE named Jerome McDougle? And immediately after that at #16 a safety was selected whose name was Troy Polamalu?

The safety turned out to be a pretty decent player. The DE? Not so much.

This draft felt eerily similar to me. Let's just hope it doesn't turn out the same way.
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We didn't exactly need a safety that year with Brian Dawkins in his prime and a young Michael Lewis already on the team.
Exactly, its a different situation, not to mention Graham and McDougal are different types of players, and Thomas and Polamalu are COMPLETELY different types of players.
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Old 04-28-2010, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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I think those are different scenarios, people weren't clamoring for a FS at that time because they had Dawk who was better than Troy P. So they don't look at that draft and say, we should've taken Troy! But in this case, I think since so many people were thinking Earl Thomas, and since FS was a gaping need they will always look back and compare the two and the Eagles will either look really good or really stupid. I think they look really good right now but we'll see.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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I think those are different scenarios, people weren't clamoring for a FS at that time because they had Dawk who was better than Troy P. So they don't look at that draft and say, we should've taken Troy! But in this case, I think since so many people were thinking Earl Thomas, and since FS was a gaping need they will always look back and compare the two and the Eagles will either look really good or really stupid. I think they look really good right now but we'll see.
Definitely, I would've loved Thomas, but he has holes in his game that I would think are what made Graham the pick over him.

Name one hole in Graham's game that even approaches the severity of Thomas' lack of tackling ability... you can't.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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Definitely, I would've loved Thomas, but he has holes in his game that I would think are what made Graham the pick over him.

Name one hole in Graham's game that even approaches the severity of Thomas' lack of tackling ability... you can't.
How about the fact that his ceiling is significantly lower than Thomas'? Dont get me wrong, I think Brandon Graham is a great player, but I dont think he will get much better than he is right now.

He could come in and be a 6-10 sack guy his rookie year, but I wouldnt be surprised if he was just a 6-10 sack guy for the rest of his career. Not bad production at all, but its what separates the elite from the good.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:30 PM    (permalink
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How about the fact that his ceiling is significantly lower than Thomas'? Dont get me wrong, I think Brandon Graham is a great player, but I dont think he will get much better than he is right now.

He could come in and be a 6-10 sack guy his rookie year, but I wouldnt be surprised if he was just a 6-10 sack guy for the rest of his career. Not bad production at all, but its what separates the elite from the good.
There's where you and I disagree, I see Graham eventually becoming a consistent ~12 or more sack player in three years.

And that's not really a hole in his game, it would be considered his hole as a prospect... But you could pose simlar questions about Thomas.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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How about the fact that his ceiling is significantly lower than Thomas'? Dont get me wrong, I think Brandon Graham is a great player, but I dont think he will get much better than he is right now.

He could come in and be a 6-10 sack guy his rookie year, but I wouldnt be surprised if he was just a 6-10 sack guy for the rest of his career. Not bad production at all, but its what separates the elite from the good.
I don't agree with that at all. I thing Graham has the ability to be a double-digit sack guy year in and year out. He could be better than Trent Cole (who I'm sure we can all agree is elite). Earl Thomas on the other hand will be a great ball hawk but his lack of ability to help in the run game will always keep him from being an elite player.
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Old 04-28-2010, 07:36 PM    (permalink
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I don't agree with that at all. I thing Graham has the ability to be a double-digit sack guy year in and year out. He could be better than Trent Cole (who I'm sure we can all agree is elite). Earl Thomas on the other hand will be a great ball hawk but his lack of ability to help in the run game will always keep him from being an elite player.
I agree with this all except I don't necessarily agree with how this last sentence was worded. He very well could be elite, but he will have to build up his ability in the run game to where he is at least average. He looks like he will cnsisitently be a great player in coverage, making plays against the pass. But Graham has the potential to be great in both the run and pass game. If you ask me, I'd rather have a guy you is great in all phases of his game than another guy who is elite in one phase and mediocre in the other.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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graham is not just gonna get sacks though, with his motor he is gonna rack up hurries as well as TFL's
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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How about the fact that his ceiling is significantly lower than Thomas'?
He's been playing DE for three years. You're right. He certainly can't get any better.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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He's been playing DE for three years. You're right. He certainly can't get any better.
Limited athletically, limited physically, and often gets engulfed by bigger offensive linemen. Considering pretty much every offensive linemen he will see in the NFL will have a significant size advantage on him, he will either have to get better or try and get by off his elite motor.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:33 PM    (permalink
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How about the fact that his ceiling is significantly lower than Thomas'? Dont get me wrong, I think Brandon Graham is a great player, but I dont think he will get much better than he is right now.

He could come in and be a 6-10 sack guy his rookie year, but I wouldnt be surprised if he was just a 6-10 sack guy for the rest of his career. Not bad production at all, but its what separates the elite from the good.
If we can get 10 sacks opposite Trent Cole, then Graham is a good pick. He doesn't need to have 20 sacks. Graham needs to be solid against the run and a 10 sack player. If he can do that, then he is a great pick.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:36 PM    (permalink
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Limited athletically, limited physically, and often gets engulfed by bigger offensive linemen. Considering pretty much every offensive linemen he will see in the NFL will have a significant size advantage on him, he will either have to get better or try and get by off his elite motor.
You are out of your mind. Gets engulfed by blockers? He was one of, if not the best run defender in the draft. And you must not have watched Brandon Graham at all, he completely destroyed Bulaga and Stafford in college, two players who profile as starters at the NFL level and he completely dominated at the senior bowl as well. He dominated the best talent he went against. And significant size advantage? At about 6'1" and 268 pounds his girth is not a problem, he is a solidly built guy. And you fail to mention the quickness and suddenness advantage he will have against any RT he will go against.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:48 PM    (permalink
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Limited athletically, limited physically, and often gets engulfed by bigger offensive linemen. Considering pretty much every offensive linemen he will see in the NFL will have a significant size advantage on him, he will either have to get better or try and get by off his elite motor.
You honestly have zero ******* clue as to what you're talking about.

Graham apefucked the best competition all season. He literally and figuratively beat the everloving **** out of Bryan Bulaga. He made Gabe Carimi his *****. He made a mockery out of Ohio State's entire offensive line. Seriously. Go watch tape before you come around here spouting off **** that you obviously have zero ******* clue about.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Hell, just watch 5 minutes of the Senior Bowl practices.
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Old 04-28-2010, 08:52 PM    (permalink
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I have to say... I would've loved Brandon Graham for the Cowboys. As either an ILB or OLB in our 3-4 system. As far as hit fit as a traditional DE in the 4-3, I don't think that's his best NFL fit. He needs to be an OLB like Woodley... we all saw what a difference the switch made for Elvis Dumervil. I think he's a 9-12 sack guy in the 4-3, but in the 3-4, he'd rip off a few more.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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You are out of your mind. Gets engulfed by blockers? He was one of, if not the best run defender in the draft. And you must not have watched Brandon Graham at all, he completely destroyed Bulaga and Stafford in college, two players who profile as starters at the NFL level and he completely dominated at the senior bowl as well. He dominated the best talent he went against. And significant size advantage? At about 6'1" and 268 pounds his girth is not a problem, he is a solidly built guy. And you fail to mention the quickness and suddenness advantage he will have against any RT he will go against.
I'm not arguing his talents, I'm pointing out his weaknesses. I'm also not the only person who thinks this.

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The Bad: Struggles against large tackles and engulfed at the point of attack. Displays marginal skill moving in reverse if asked to play in coverage.
scouting report on Philadelphiaeagles.com

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Cons

A bit shorter than your prototypical Defensive End
Does not have great speed for his size
Sometimes, can get engulfed by big Lineman
Has a tough time with double teams.
scouting report from nfldraftgeek.com

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Doesn't have the ideal height you look for --- Short arms --- Frame may be maxed out --- Not a great athlete --- Average speed, quickness and agility --- Not real explosive --- Lacks a burst --- Struggles in space --- A tad inconsistent --- Might have to change positions --- Upside is limited.
our own Scott Wright

I agree he had some EXTREMELY nice plays against Bulaga, but it was expectedly inconsistent. Its not like he was beating him up every play. Bulaga has some highlight reel material as well from that game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DYk6GzwHC4

You bring up the senior bowl, which I agree he did well at, but its relative. In practice you saw him go up against Ed Wang (5th round pick). During the game, Graham went up against Selvish Capers (6th? round pick), and ate his lunch, as well as Ciron Black (UDFA).

His is a 1st round caliber player, but to think he will have a seemless transition to the NFL is idiotic. To act like he is not limited in some aspects is also completely idiotic.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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You honestly have zero ******* clue as to what you're talking about.

Graham apefucked the best competition all season. He literally and figuratively beat the everloving **** out of Bryan Bulaga. He made Gabe Carimi his *****. He made a mockery out of Ohio State's entire offensive line. Seriously. Go watch tape before you come around here spouting off **** that you obviously have zero ******* clue about.
Take a step back from your computer, take your homer goggles off, come back and put a coherent argument together.

You keep on saying he made all these left tackles his *****, but he lined up on both sides of the dline. I understand he made good plays. He did it all season long.

You guys think me saying he's going to be a "6-10 sack guy" is a bad thing, but it isnt. All I'm saying is what I feel like he is going to do. This is one of those I'd be happy to be wrong about, but I have no reason to be believe otherwise.

I've watched the tape multiple times. Great college player. Amazing motor, great strength, and good pass rush moves.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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We got the best DE, in the draft and we find people who are hating on this pick, geez!
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Take a step back from your computer, take your homer goggles off, come back and put a coherent argument together.

You keep on saying he made all these left tackles his *****, but he lined up on both sides of the dline. I understand he made good plays. He did it all season long.

You guys think me saying he's going to be a "6-10 sack guy" is a bad thing, but it isnt. All I'm saying is what I feel like he is going to do. This is one of those I'd be happy to be wrong about, but I have no reason to be believe otherwise.

I've watched the tape multiple times. Great college player. Amazing motor, great strength, and good pass rush moves.

Yeah its really not, Trent Cole is 6-10 sack guy.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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You keep on saying he made all these left tackles his *****, but he lined up on both sides of the dline. I understand he made good plays. He did it all season long.
Carimi is a right tackle. Yes, that'd be the same right tackle that Graham obliterated with a speed rush to force a fumble which was recovered by Ryan Van Bergen and run in for a touchdown. Why yes, that is the same Gabe Carimi that is consistently listed as either the top or second-best OT for the 2011 draft.

Bulaga is a left tackle. Yes, that'd be the same left tackle that Graham obliterated with a speed rush and an inside move to get a pair of sacks. Yes, in case you're wondering, that is the same Bulaga that got drafted in the first round by the Packers.

I mean, yeah, we should definitely take your opinion on Graham over mine. It's not like I watched every single game the guy played in college or anything.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:27 PM    (permalink
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Yeah its really not, Trent Cole is 6-10 sack guy.
Trent Cole is a 9-14 kind of guy, he has gotten 34 sacks in the past three seasons and has hit 12.5 sacks twice while consistently rating as one of the highest defensive ends in hurries and QB hits. His numbers might even go up now that he has a potential impact pass rusher opposite him.
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:33 PM    (permalink
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Carimi is a right tackle. Yes, that'd be the same right tackle that Graham obliterated with a speed rush to force a fumble which was recovered by Ryan Van Bergen and run in for a touchdown. Why yes, that is the same Gabe Carimi that is consistently listed as either the top or second-best OT for the 2011 draft.

Bulaga is a left tackle. Yes, that'd be the same left tackle that Graham obliterated with a speed rush and an inside move to get a pair of sacks. Yes, in case you're wondering, that is the same Bulaga that got drafted in the first round by the Packers.

I mean, yeah, we should definitely take your opinion on Graham over mine. It's not like I watched every single game the guy played in college or anything.
You also have an INCREDIBLE bias. You've seen a lot of him, but what do you remember? You remember the good because he was a bright spot on a very bleak defense.

Brandon Graham showed up well in big games. He played well against good players, but there are reasons myself and scouts say things like "limited athletically" and "limited upside".

Gabe Carimi = "2009: Started all 13 games at left tackle" via Wisconsin athletic site
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Old 04-28-2010, 09:38 PM    (permalink
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Limited athletically, limited physically, and often gets engulfed by bigger offensive linemen. Considering pretty much every offensive linemen he will see in the NFL will have a significant size advantage on him, he will either have to get better or try and get by off his elite motor.
I love how people say Graham is limitted athletically, but performed right around the same at the combine as any of the other top DEs this year, who are labelled as physical freaks. Graham is shorter than the other top DEs in this draft, if you look back at his combine numbers, they are similar to any of the other top DEs. As far as his size... He weighs the same as Cole, and you know how he is doing. Like Cole, he plays with great leverage, and actually, Graham may be stronger than him, so with his stength and GREAT use of leverage, he does fine, hell, more than fine, he still dominates.

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I have to say... I would've loved Brandon Graham for the Cowboys. As either an ILB or OLB in our 3-4 system. As far as hit fit as a traditional DE in the 4-3, I don't think that's his best NFL fit. He needs to be an OLB like Woodley... we all saw what a difference the switch made for Elvis Dumervil. I think he's a 9-12 sack guy in the 4-3, but in the 3-4, he'd rip off a few more.
I have to say I disagree with you. I know he played LB in high school, but if you look at him now, his physique and his style of play, he is the perfect fit as a 4-3 LE. I have no doubt Graham would be able to learn and adjust to coverage if he was in a 3-4, but he is much better suited in the 4-3 where he won't be asked to do that nearly as much.

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Yeah its really not, Trent Cole is 6-10 sack guy.
Cole's only season with under 8 sacks was his rookie year. He had 8 his second year, 12.5 his third year, 9 his fourth, and 12.5 last year. If I remember correctly, he had an injury two years ago (ankle?) that slowed him down. I say Cole is a 10-12 sack type of guy, with the ability to get to 14, definitely not a 6-10 anymore. I expect Graham to have similar sack numbers, and actually, maybe a bit more. And like Cole he is great against the run as well, which has added value.
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