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View Poll Results: Best NFC East DB?
Asante Samuel, CB, Philadelphia 28 37.33%
Corey Webster, CB, New York 24 32.00%
Sheldon Brown, CB, Philadelphia 14 18.67%
Carlos Rogers, CB, Washington 1 1.33%
Other (please indicate who) 8 10.67%
Voters: 75. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 11-10-2009, 11:42 PM    (permalink
herniateddisc
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Great example, except it disproves your point about Webster's talent, Webster played well against NO, in fact both of our outside guys did well in that game, we just got torn a new ass hole in the middle where CC Brown is turrible and with Boley out our LBs were slower than dirt as well. So our pass d struggled. There's absolutely no way you can fault Webster for our middle cover guys sucking. As for this why go after Webster notion, teams don't really, but that's because he's great at covering guys, that's why his averages are so great, he doesn't give up big catches and does a great job preventing catches. What's impressive aren't his totals which would be effected by being shied away from but his averages.
I think Webster is talented but he is not a top 5 CB. Sorry. Never will be IMHO.

His stats right now are more an indication of how easy it is to abuse other than it is to abuse him.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:42 PM    (permalink
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Call me a dunce but if I am throwing the ball versus the GMen, I would go after everyone but Webster for obvious reasons.

If throwing the ball v the Cowboys, that call is somewhat more difficult becasue the Secondary in Dallas is a bit better right now.

So, not sure, the stats quite capture that nor is the data really supporting the argument.
How is the secondary in dallas better when both giants corners are playing better? Sure you don't have a CC Brown but that's one player, it's not like Web gets ignored because he's got CC Brown and Roy Williams at Safety with DeAngelo at the other corner spot. There's good coverage across from Web and there's good coverage at one of the safety spots. So teams do take advantage of Brown and the linebackers, but you still haven't explained how that in any way makes Web any less impressive.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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I think Webster is talented but he is not a top 5 CB. Sorry. Never will be IMHO.

His stats right now are more an indication of how easy it is to abuse other than it is to abuse him.
lol, when he's got a better second CB than Jenkins that's such a ridiculous point.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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How is the secondary in dallas better when both giants corners are playing better?
Last I checked Safeties count. And you are basing your CB play as being better based on what? 5-4? 15 TDs?

The puffed up stats from playing Jason Campbell, JeMarcus Russell???????

We have yet to benefit from that.

Every decent QB dropped 21 points plus on the GMen and you are 1-4 in those games.

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Sure you don't have a CC Brown but that's one player, it's not like Web gets ignored because he's got CC Brown and Roy Williams at Safety with DeAngelo at the other corner spot. There's good coverage across from Web and there's good coverage at one of the safety spots. So teams do take advantage of Brown and the linebackers, but you still haven't explained how that in any way makes Web any less impressive.
I think Webster is fine. I don't think he is top 5 though and I think RIGHT NOW I take Jenkins b/c he is a better play maker with more upside.

That was the Poll right? Best DB right now?

Heck, I could have talked Laron Landry. I was thinking CB. But I like him better than everyone else now that I think of it as a DB.

But, you can keep Webster. It is fine. Love him.

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Old 11-10-2009, 11:54 PM    (permalink
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Last I checked Safeties count.

And you are basing your CB play as being better based on what? 5-4?



I think Webster is fine. I don't think he is top 5 and I think RIGHT NOW I take Jenkins b/c he is a better play maker with more upside.

You can keep Webster. It is fine. Love him.
Safeties count but Michael Johnson is good in coverage. So what you're suggesting is that just because CC Brown is trash that makes the rest of our coverage players worse?

Webster's near the top 5 if he isn't top 5, he's been a great cover guy for 2 years now who doesn't give up many big plays, keeps a very low completion % and is great against the run. Jenkins is a better playmaker, but that has more to do with Webster's hands as he's dropped a couple of picks already this year, but still Webster is clearly a lot better in coverage which is much more important at the corner position.

As for what I'm judging Terrell Thomas on is his good play, he's played well and has been improving steadily, our record has nothing to do with that.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-11-2009, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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Jenkins is a better playmaker, but that has more to do with Webster's hands as he's dropped a couple of picks already this year, but still Webster is clearly a lot better in coverage which is much more important at the corner position.
... and herein lies the difference in opinion. Good analysis.

Differences abound. Fair enuff. I prefer Jenkins. You Webster.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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This is ridiculous, what in the world has Jenkins done to warrant being named a better corner than Webster, Asante and Sheldon? Nothing. Is it because Jenkins has shadowed a bunch of nobodies while Newman matches up with the #1? Is it because he let Bobby Wade and Mark Bradley grab 7 catches for 77 yards? Because he shut down Michael Jenkins and a rookie Jeremy Maclin? Or is it because he let Deion Branch go for 3 receptions and 39 yards? Get real.

According to Profootball focus, Jenkins has been targeted 40 times and has allowed 22 receptions for 258 yards and 2 touchdowns. Please come and tell me when that matches up with 33 targets, 11 catches, 142 yards, 4 interceptions and 13 passes defended and 0 touchdowns from Sheldon Brown (that Miles Austin TD was on Jones who was supposed to have over the top coverage, which is why he gambled so much), or Asante Samuel's 24 targets and 14 receptions for 157 yards, 2 touchdowns and has 5 interceptions and 13 passes defended and in the past 3 1/2 regulard seasons, Asante Samuel has 25 interceptions, 60 passes defended, 2 touchdowns and if you add in the post season, that total jumps to 30 interceptions, 74 passes defended and 5 touchdowns, those would be great career numbers for most players.

And on the topic of Corey Webster, he has had two tough weeks but he is still shutdown. On the Maclin touchdown he had perfect coverage it was just a perfect throw and Maclin went and stole it out of the air. And Vincent Jackson has made everyone look bad, he scored touchdowns against Scrabble and Webster this season, that is like dividing by 0 twice.

And here are the numbers from last year:
Corey Webster, New York Giants
Season Totals: 66 attempts, 3.92 YPA, 65.15 Forced INC%, 1 TD, 3 INTs

Sheldon Brown, Philadelphia Eagles
Season Totals: 63 attempts, 4.84 YPA, 44.44 Forced INC%, 0 TDs, 1 INT

Asante Samuel, Philadelphia Eagles
Season Totals: 78 attempts, 6.51 YPA, 41.03 Forced INC%, 3 TDs, 4 INTs

Mike Jenkins, Dallas Cowboys
Season Totals: 38 attempts, 4.34 YPA, 39.47 Forced INC%, 2 TDs, 1 INT

Jenkins has potential that much is for sure but right now Samuel, Brown and Webster are top 10 corners in the NFL and Jenkins still has a way to go before he is on the level of two of the best man to man corners in the NFL and the best zone corner in the NFL.

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Old 11-11-2009, 08:11 AM    (permalink
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Asante had one amazing year -- 2006. He has greatly benefited by playing on above average Defenses. NE let him walk b/c they knew this. And according to your stats his YPA is pretty damn high which can cause me to draw some conclusion about him.

My eyeball check however is he is the biggest gambler of the bunch. He is constantly peaking into the backfield to jump routes. Constantly running into WR and forcing the Ref to either ignore or call -- his rep helps him greatly. Constantly benefiting from an effective blitz happy team and poor NE weather during the latter half of the season.

And just as importantly -- DC, Eagles and GMen have had MUCH BETTER SAFETY play over the last few years. Which greatly bolsters stats for CB.

With respect to Jenkins, he has one part-time year. Throw that out plus he was a rookie. I could care less about his stats right now. Talk about his stats end of this year and next. This is the first year in a long time the Cowboys have above average safety play in the secondary and Jenkins will benefit (second half moreso b/c Hamlin was a non-factor early on and has gotten marginally better). I would compare stats then.

All are above average guys. I am simply asking you actually watch him play, watch how he covers, watch how he plays the ball, watch how he is tackling and evaluate the RIGHT NOW.

** Now watch him go out at Green Bay and stink up the joint in cold weather.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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Falling
2. Corey Webster, Giants cornerback: I thought this guy was an elite cornerback, but he's regressed in recent weeks. I didn't think he played well against the Chargers. In fact, second-year corner Terrell Thomas had a much better game, in my opinion. Webster had a horrible missed tackle against the Eagles. On Sunday against the Chargers, he wasn't reacting as quickly as he needed to.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/ca...atch-09-week-9

OMG Webster is the best! [/sarcasm]
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:38 AM    (permalink
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I always wonder how much Samuel benefits from playing across a shutdown corner like Brown. Probably much more than the other way around. Gimme Sheldon right now.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Webster has not been that good for the last two years. Your pass rush has. This year it has been bad and how has Webster looked??

All this Webster love started with the GB interception in the pen ultimum game of the year. Prior to that, everyone hate him and thought he was crap. All of a sudden he has a good year on a dominant D and he something special?? Whatever.

With respect to the Champ Bailey point, please read carefully. I wrote once he starts getting the calls like Asante does that it is off to the races in terms of EFFECTIVENESS. I am not saying Jenkins is as ACCOMPLISHED, I am saying that once he gets some REF respect he will be in that class of CB.

Why do I think this? B/c he is very physical, has good catch up speed, plays the ball as well as any CB in the league and has good hands. My Jenkins concerns are emotional maturity and in that sense he still has lots to prove.

But right now, pound for pound, he is better than all listed IMHO. Keep watching him ...
Yes he has. Last year our pass rush wasn't that good. Dallas's pass rush was better, as was a lot of teams in the NFL.

Webster and our secondary as a whole was better than our SB year, which masked it. Our defense last year was just as good as our SB team, but good in a different way. Our pass rush wasn't as good, but our coverage was much better.

Webster was the main reason for that. He was a top 5 CB in the league last year.

This year prior to Vincent Jackson, he's been lights out. Arguably top 3,4.

Jenkins has potential to be great, but right now he's a solid up and comer. And thats it. 3 games doesn't warrant any comparisons to Champ Bailey, regardless of how much of that comparison is a future projection.

Its a long season. Remember that.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Yes he has. Last year our pass rush wasn't that good. Dallas's pass rush was better, as was a lot of teams in the NFL.

Webster and our secondary as a whole was better than our SB year, which masked it. Our defense last year was just as good as our SB team, but good in a different way. Our pass rush wasn't as good, but our coverage was much better.

Webster was the main reason for that. He was a top 5 CB in the league last year.

This year prior to Vincent Jackson, he's been lights out. Arguably top 3,4.

Jenkins has potential to be great, but right now he's a solid up and comer. And thats it. 3 games doesn't warrant any comparisons to Champ Bailey, regardless of how much of that comparison is a future projection.

Its a long season. Remember that.
BBD, I realise this will sound odd but last year the GMen had a better and more consistent rush than the Cowboys. In fact, I found the Cowboys D last year to get quite reckless with the blitzing and pile don in certain games

I don't have the stats but I suspect the GMen last year blitzed less than the Cowboys but where pretty successful getting pressure -- even to the point teams "felt" pressure when none was there.

With respect to three games don't make a trend, OK, but RIGHT NOW given historical performance, context of play in the D strategy their teams take, and overall talent level .... gimme Mike.

Long seasons work both ways.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Despite Sean Jones' refusal to help Sheldon Brown, Brown's CB stats still probably blow Jenkins' out of the water.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Despite Sean Jones' refusal to help Sheldon Brown, Brown's CB stats still probably blow Jenkins' out of the water.
They do, right now Sheldon Brown is clearly better.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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BBD, I realise this will sound odd but last year the GMen had a better and more consistent rush than the Cowboys. In fact, I found the Cowboys D last year to get quite reckless with the blitzing and pile don in certain games

I don't have the stats but I suspect the GMen last year blitzed less than the Cowboys but where pretty successful getting pressure -- even to the point teams "felt" pressure when none was there.

With respect to three games don't make a trend, OK, but RIGHT NOW given historical performance, context of play in the D strategy their teams take, and overall talent level .... gimme Mike.

Long seasons work both ways.
That's how not great pass rushes work, ours was very patchy and got sacks in batches and often didn't get much pressure at all last year. As for your insistence to over-rate Mike, historical performance and context of play in the D work against him compared to the other 3. As for talent level Sheldon Brown and Webster clearly have more talent at sticking to their man and making every catch a tough one and Asante is a better ball hawk.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:22 PM    (permalink
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What's lost from this discussion is how the play of secondary also plays apart in the pass rush. So far the posts above only discuss how the pass rush has benefitted certain corners. When in fact, they go hand in hand which will only lead to passionate debate about an issue that can't really be answered definitively.

We all love our corners. How much does it matter? Not nearly as much as team wins. Wins is the only stat that counts. ...and what does it count towards? A SB. The discussion is fun, but remember this kind of discussion only goes in circles.

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Old 11-18-2009, 09:15 PM    (permalink
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What's lost from this discussion is how the play of secondary also plays apart in the pass rush. So far the posts above only discuss how the pass rush has benefitted certain corners. When in fact, they go hand in hand which will only lead to passionate debate about an issue that can't really be answered definitively.

We all love our corners. How much does it matter? Not nearly as much as team wins. Wins is the only stat that counts. ...and what does it count towards? A SB. The discussion is fun, but remember this kind of discussion only goes in circles.
Exactly. Prime example of this is how vs Philly Maclin burned Jenkins on a deep route and of course Hamlin was late getting help as usual, so it was a pretty easy 6 especially when Maclin had that many steps already. Ware ended up getting to McNabb and hitting his arm right as he was releasing the ball, but when they showed the replay it was pretty obvious Maclin was going to score on that play. Any corner can look better then what they really are if their asked to cover for less time, same goes for good corners who are asked to cover longer periods of time during one play.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:07 AM    (permalink
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Where are those great stats showing me how Corey Webster is great and the GMen DB are awesome!

Webster kind of struggles at bit with decent WR...... As I said, puffing up stats versus Tampa, Oakland, KC, etc is not a measuring stick to how good you are, or your DBs in General.

And with respect to the Cowboys, we will find out how good they are starting next week. 5 games to prove if this D is real.

?????
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:14 AM    (permalink
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As I said, puffing up stats versus Tampa, Oakland, KC, etc is not a measuring stick to how good you are
You don't seem to mind it when it's Miles Austin who's puffing up his stats against those teams.
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Old 11-27-2009, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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You don't seem to mind it when it's Miles Austin who's puffing up his stats against those teams.
Hate to point out the obvious but Webster piling up stats versus "those teams" is an indication of HOW BAD THE OFFENSES are.

Your point is the opposite. Austin puffing ups stats versus the Raiders DB would be calling those Defenses bad. And the Raiders DB are not that bad versus the Pass. Run not so much.

So, I already stated the Cowgirls season starts next Sunday and they have lots to prove.
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Old 11-27-2009, 11:59 AM    (permalink
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Yeah those one handed catches by Marshall where Webster was in good position really sucked.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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Yeah those one handed catches by Marshall where Webster was in good position really sucked.
Excuses. Excuses.

Solid corner no better than Terence Newman.

Again, he is very good just not the best.
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Old 11-27-2009, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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Excuses. Excuses.
No it's the truth. Webster didn't give up anything terrible yesterday like he did with Vincent Jackson. I think the problem you're seeing is that Sheridan loves to play a Cover 2 and our safties are terrible at it. Therefore you see Webster running to save someone's ass and you assume it was his guy when it wasn't. It's happened on numerous occasions this season.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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I've always said it's very close between him and Sheldon Brown. I think Webster gets the slight edge but I don't mind if people think Brown is better.
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Old 11-27-2009, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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No it's the truth. Webster didn't give up anything terrible yesterday like he did with Vincent Jackson. I think the problem you're seeing is that Sheridan loves to play a Cover 2 and our safties are terrible at it. Therefore you see Webster running to save someone's ass and you assume it was his guy when it wasn't. It's happened on numerous occasions this season.
Safeties fault. Never the CB.

Listen, not that I totally disagree with you but he just is not that good. His late 2007 and 2008 were a product of Spags brilliant work getting to the QB when it counted.

Great technician, decent athlete, would love him on my team, not a top-5 CB.
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