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Old 09-28-2009, 01:50 PM    (permalink
katnip
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Default Most dominating Defensive Star(s) ever???

Who would your list consist of and who's the best ever up to today to you?

I got to give props to the "Minister," Reggie White. Like, I'd always put him above the real L.T., because you knew what Reggie White was all about. A beast D-Lineman who spent his first 2 pro seasons not in the NFL.

Here's a few names I really respect after watching/reading about them, off the top of my head.

Reggie White
Deacon Jones
Dick Butkus
Deion Sanders
Lawrence Taylor
Ronnie Lott
Joe Greene

^ Is that plausible
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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I don't care what anyone says, Ray Lewis is as good as any defensive player I've ever seen. Maybe as good as anyone ever. He's still a top LB a decade and a half into his career.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Rod Woodson.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Another LB.

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Old 09-28-2009, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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Nnamdi Asomugha the last 2-3 seasons....
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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LT is in a class of his own.

My personal top 10 defensive player list of all time, taking all positions into account:

1. Lawrence Taylor
2. Dick Butkus
3. Deacon Jones
4. Reggie White
5. Jack Lambert
6. Deion Sanders
7. Mike Singletary
8. Ronnie Lott
9. Joe Greene
10. Allan Page

Its hard making a top 10 including all positions, but I tried my best. Im sure many of you will disagree and include some names I left out, but when we're talking top 10 including all positions, its not just about being good, its about being a game changer, a trend setter. So guys like Ray Lewis (as the most popular name) get left out bc they weren't the best at their position, and didn't redefine position either.

For me personally, the hardest names to leave off this list were Jack Ham, Sam Huff, Gary Nobis, Ray Nietske, Ed Jones, Nightrain Lane, etc.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Its hard making a top 10 including all positions
Yes yes. Very hard to do.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Lawrence Taylor changed the way the game was played forever.

He's far and away the greatest defensive player in NFL history.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
LT is in a class of his own.

My personal top 10 defensive player list of all time, taking all positions into account:

1. Lawrence Taylor
2. Dick Butkus
3. Deacon Jones
4. Reggie White
5. Jack Lambert
6. Deion Sanders
7. Mike Singletary
8. Ronnie Lott
9. Joe Greene
10. Allan Page

Its hard making a top 10 including all positions, but I tried my best. Im sure many of you will disagree and include some names I left out, but when we're talking top 10 including all positions, its not just about being good, its about being a game changer, a trend setter. So guys like Ray Lewis (as the most popular name) get left out bc they weren't the best at their position, and didn't redefine position either.

For me personally, the hardest names to leave off this list were Jack Ham, Sam Huff, Gary Nobis, Ray Nietske, Ed Jones, Nightrain Lane, etc.
Showing your age with some of these names (that's a good thing). To me it would be LT and Deion Sanders because they forced offenses to literally play with less than a full field. Texas Tommy Nobis by the way.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:53 PM    (permalink
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It should be a crime to leave Derrick Thomas off of a list like this.
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Old 09-28-2009, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
1. Lawrence Taylor
2. Dick Butkus
3. Deacon Jones
4. Reggie White
5. Jack Lambert
6. Deion Sanders
7. Mike Singletary
8. Ronnie Lott
9. Joe Greene
10. Allan Page
I like the list and agree for the most part.

1. LT
2. Deacon
3. White
4. Lambert
5. Butkus
6. Sanders or Woodson, they both changed the way. the position was played. I know Sanders gets most of the pub.
7. Lott
8. Ham
9. Page
10. Huff

I think Ham and Huff were better than Singletary. And both Lambert and Ham were more important than Joe Greene. Also think Page was more important to the DT position than Greene. I would almost go as far to say Sapp was too. Sapp and Green basically played the same position in cover 2 variations. And Sapp was just as dominant if not more.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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For playing a majority of his career at 3-4 DE, Bruce Smith is deserving of being top 3-4. LT is one of course. The next group is Rod Woodson, Bruce, Reggie, Deacon, Butkus and Lott.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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IMO Deacon Jones is the best most feared imo. He had more sacks than he's given credit because he played a few years without them keeping track of them.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:11 PM    (permalink
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"LT is in a class above his own". " LT far and away".


LT was a great great player no doubt, but there are surely some other great players in the same class as him. He wasn't that much better than the other greats.

It's like saying Joe Montana is in a class of his own... He is in the company of the other greats. He may be the best of the best, but he's not in his own echelon, and there in the hall of fame along with him because they were in the same "class" as him. Saying otherwise is subjective.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Didn't LT change how people blocked?
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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Didn't LT change how people blocked?
Yes he did. Instead of letting a 3-4 rush backer have a free shot on the QB they actually started to block him!
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by TitleTown088 View Post
"LT is in a class above his own". " LT far and away".


LT was a great great player no doubt, but there are surely some other great players in the same class as him. He wasn't that much better than the other greats.

It's like saying Joe Montana is in a class of his own... He is in the company of the other greats. He may be the best of the best, but he's not in his own echelon, and there in the hall of fame along with him because they were in the same "class" as him. Saying otherwise is subjective.
Yes he is, and so is Joe.

Junior! Junior Junior Junior, too many people just remember the broken down version that has been lurking around the NFL the last few years.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by no bare feet View Post
Yes he did. Instead of letting a 3-4 rush backer have a free shot on the QB they actually started to block him!
http://cornellsun.com/node/19046

Quote:
“The offenses started throwing the ball more, and then he came along and made them readjust all their schemes to be able to account for the great defensive player,” Knowles said.

For the first time in years, offenses had to adjust to Taylor and attacking defenses, not the other way around, and this created modern football.

Taylor spawned the need for a new breed of offensive lineman, and consequently, they ballooned in size and speed, especially on the quarterback’s blind side. (Michael Lewis, author of Moneyball, recently published a book about this evolution.) Blocking schemes changed to stop Taylor from blitzing unhindered. Before him, backs had picked up linebackers on all plays. But Taylor — who amassed 132.5 sacks in his career, the second-highest total ever at his retirement — could run through or around them to the ball carrier. New formations were created, such as Hall of Fame coach Joe Gibbs’ twin tight end or single back sets, in order to get a bigger player to block Taylor.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Jason Taylor
Ronnie Lott
Junior Seau
Joey Browner
Deion Sanders
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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A few that deserve mention,
-DT Warren Sapp, he was a force. Pass rusher, run stopper. He changed how teams played every week
-DE Bruce Smith, great combination of size and speed/athletic ability.

I don't know if people will accept this one or not, but I'm gonna throw it out there; Sean Taylor. The last two years of his career/life he was becoming one of the most disruptive forces I've seen on a football team. He covered so much ground and did everything you ask a safety to do and did it well. Wish we could have seen him really reach his full potential.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:56 PM    (permalink
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Its hard comparing pass rushers from different eras, but nobody impacted an offensive gameplan or the way offenses played in general than LT.

Deacon was dominant. Reggie was dominant. But they didn't change anything. Teams blocked them the same way they did the greats before them.

That said, Titletown is right. He's not necessarily in a league of his own, but in my eyes theres no question he was the greatest defender ever.

Whats overlooked is how Dick Butkus was LT before LT (not as dominant but the closest to LT). Butkus was close to as dominant, but he lacked the pass rushing element that LT had.

Oddly enough, and maybe bf51 can back me on this bc im sure he knows about Butkus, I personally feel that Butkus couldve changed the game before LT did. Butkus would blitz up the middle and was unstoppable. Papa Bear just didn't do it often enough.

I think if Butkus rushed the passer as much as LT did, he couldve had 130 or so sacks as well from the MIKE position. Maybe change blocking assignments the way LT did.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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Its hard comparing pass rushers from different eras, but nobody impacted an offensive gameplan or the way offenses played in general than LT.

Deacon was dominant. Reggie was dominant. But they didn't change anything. Teams blocked them the same way they did the greats before them.

That said, Titletown is right. He's not necessarily in a league of his own, but in my eyes theres no question he was the greatest defender ever.

Whats overlooked is how Dick Butkus was LT before LT (not as dominant but the closest to LT). Butkus was close to as dominant, but he lacked the pass rushing element that LT had.

Oddly enough, and maybe bf51 can back me on this bc im sure he knows about Butkus, I personally feel that Butkus couldve changed the game before LT did. Butkus would blitz up the middle and was unstoppable. Papa Bear just didn't do it often enough.

I think if Butkus rushed the passer as much as LT did, he couldve had 130 or so sacks as well from the MIKE position. Maybe change blocking assignments the way LT did.
Butkus could very well have had close to 100+ sacks, sacks weren't tracked as a stat until 1982.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:01 PM    (permalink
Babylon
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A few that deserve mention,
-DT Warren Sapp, he was a force. Pass rusher, run stopper. He changed how teams played every week
-DE Bruce Smith, great combination of size and speed/athletic ability.

I don't know if people will accept this one or not, but I'm gonna throw it out there; Sean Taylor. The last two years of his career/life he was becoming one of the most disruptive forces I've seen on a football team. He covered so much ground and did everything you ask a safety to do and did it well. Wish we could have seen him really reach his full potential.
So many great players you could add:

Mike Curtis
Cornelius Bennett
Roger Wehrli
Mel Blount
Bob Lilly (imagine nobody mentioning Bob Lilly)
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Butkus could very well have had close to 100+ sacks, sacks weren't tracked as a stat until 1982.
i know that. but even so, i don't think he had 100 sacks. he didn't blitz often enough.

Butkus played in an era where he was as big as the linemen in front of him, and he was a standup MIKE. Teams didn't know how to block that.

Some will say that Deacon deserves to be higher on the list than Butkus, but I think Butkus gets a slight nod over him.

Deacon had help on that dline. The Fearsome Foursome was dominant. Butkus really didn't have anybody like that to play next to.

One knock on Butkus was his coverage. The guy wasn't Ray Lewis in coverage, but the guy was good in coverage. He played his zone, he played it well, and if you came in his area he'd crack you in your ribs.

His real downfall, and perhaps critique, was his health. The guy couldn't stay healthy. He blames Chicago for that, but who knows.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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Its hard comparing pass rushers from different eras, but nobody impacted an offensive gameplan or the way offenses played in general than LT.

Deacon was dominant. Reggie was dominant. But they didn't change anything. Teams blocked them the same way they did the greats before them.

That said, Titletown is right. He's not necessarily in a league of his own, but in my eyes theres no question he was the greatest defender ever.

Whats overlooked is how Dick Butkus was LT before LT (not as dominant but the closest to LT). Butkus was close to as dominant, but he lacked the pass rushing element that LT had.

Oddly enough, and maybe bf51 can back me on this bc im sure he knows about Butkus, I personally feel that Butkus couldve changed the game before LT did. Butkus would blitz up the middle and was unstoppable. Papa Bear just didn't do it often enough.

I think if Butkus rushed the passer as much as LT did, he couldve had 130 or so sacks as well from the MIKE position. Maybe change blocking assignments the way LT did.
While Butkus was something special and he was first. I still think Lambert was more prolific. It was basically Butkus, Lambert, LT, and then a break until Ray Ray. Butkus until 73', Lambert from 74'-84', and LT from 81'-93'.

Sacks were officialy kept up with until 82'. Lambert retired in 84' after missing most of the season because of injury and had 23.5 sacks. So he could have in the range of 110-130 sacks as well.
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