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Old 09-28-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by terribletowel39 View Post
While Butkus was something special and he was first. I still think Lambert was more prolific. It was basically Butkus, Lambert, LT, and then a break until Ray Ray. Butkus in the until 73', Lambert from 74'-84', and LT from 81'-93'.

Sacks were officialy kept up with until 82'. Lambert retired in 84' after missing most of the season cause of injury and had 23.5 sacks. So he could have in the range of 110-130 sacks as well.
Im torn on my greatest MIKE of all time list. I have Butkus as the consensus #1, but ive fluctuated between Lambert and Singletary as #2.

Ray Lewis is probably #4 on my list.

As for MIKEs in general, I think Sam Huff was the first of the "modern" MIKEs. Tom Landry invented the 4-3 defense with the Giants and built it around Sam Huff.

So Huff is the first true 4-3 MIKE to play the game, and is an obvious HOFer, but I think Butkus was the most dominant of the bunch.

If we go by eras, it was probably

Huff 50s
Nietscke 60s
Butkus 70s
Lambert 70s/early 80s
Singletary 80s
Jr Seau 90s
Ray Lewis 2000s
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Yea, its almost too impossible to rank them. I put Lambert ahead because of my Steeler bias. But it's not like it can't be argued. It's not that far out there.

Thing that impresses me the most, is Lambert played at around 210 lbs probably. His rookie year he weighed in almost under 200 lbs. I'm almost positive Butkus played at around 230+ atleast. Which was around the size of most linemen.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by CC.SD View Post
Yes he is, and so is Joe.

Junior! Junior Junior Junior, too many people just remember the broken down version that has been lurking around the NFL the last few years.
No he's not and neither is Joe.

See that was subjective and easy.

Junior? and how just old are you wise one?
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:18 PM    (permalink
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I think the hagiography of these old players from the 70s and 80s, most of whom none of us have ever seen play, is a little ridiculous. I can tell you that twenty years from now Ray Lewis will be "the best LB of all time." Because there will be a few people pumping him up based on nostalgia and the young people will simply accept it.
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:29 PM    (permalink
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I think the hagiography of these old players from the 70s and 80s, most of whom none of us have ever seen play, is a little ridiculous. I can tell you that twenty years from now Ray Lewis will be "the best LB of all time." Because there will be a few people pumping him up based on nostalgia and the young people will simply accept it.

While I agree, I don't think it is proper to list the study of Ray Lewis as hagiography. ha
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Old 09-28-2009, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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He waits......

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Old 09-28-2009, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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He waits......

Ah yes. My favorite young LB
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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I think the hagiography of these old players from the 70s and 80s, most of whom none of us have ever seen play, is a little ridiculous. I can tell you that twenty years from now Ray Lewis will be "the best LB of all time." Because there will be a few people pumping him up based on nostalgia and the young people will simply accept it.
I wouldnt assume that if i were you.
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:33 PM    (permalink
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Yea, its almost too impossible to rank them. I put Lambert ahead because of my Steeler bias. But it's not like it can't be argued. It's not that far out there.

Thing that impresses me the most, is Lambert played at around 210 lbs probably. His rookie year he weighed in almost under 200 lbs. I'm almost positive Butkus played at around 230+ atleast. Which was around the size of most linemen.
I remember watching how Butkus was as big as most OL.. Guess it was true
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:41 PM    (permalink
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No he's not and neither is Joe.

See that was subjective and easy.

Junior? and how just old are you wise one?
Judging by your tone I would say older than you. :D I grew up overdosing on Junior fever.

LT and Montana in a class by themselves might be subjective, but I wouldn't consider it an unpopular opinion.
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Old 09-28-2009, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by terribletowel39 View Post
Yea, its almost too impossible to rank them. I put Lambert ahead because of my Steeler bias. But it's not like it can't be argued. It's not that far out there.

Thing that impresses me the most, is Lambert played at around 210 lbs probably. His rookie year he weighed in almost under 200 lbs. I'm almost positive Butkus played at around 230+ atleast. Which was around the size of most linemen.
Butkus played at around 6-3 and 250 lbs. Which was about the size of most interior O-linemen, which ironically he was (Center+ MLB) when he played at Illinois.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:06 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe no one has mentioned the Manster, Randy White.

I don't think anyone has mentioned Jack Youngblood, either. I hated him because he gave us fits in the 70s, but he was a hell of a player.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:14 PM    (permalink
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I can't believe no one has mentioned the Manster, Randy White.

I don't think anyone has mentioned Jack Youngblood, either. I hated him because he gave us fits in the 70s, but he was a hell of a player.
How could we forget Randy White? Once they moved him to the DL he was All World.

I loved Youngblood playing with the broken leg, they'd be out a year if that happened nowadays.
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Old 09-28-2009, 06:34 PM    (permalink
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While I agree, I don't think it is proper to list the study of Ray Lewis as hagiography. ha

Touche..

Honestly you cannot compare players now to the dominant players of past decades. The game was different, and our perspectives are skewed to the great players back then. We all know that Champ Bailey wasn't really a "shutdown" corner, although he was very good. Yet in ten to twenty years his performance will be exaggerated: "teams never even through to his side!"
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Old 09-28-2009, 09:56 PM    (permalink
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Touche..

Honestly you cannot compare players now to the dominant players of past decades. The game was different, and our perspectives are skewed to the great players back then. We all know that Champ Bailey wasn't really a "shutdown" corner, although he was very good. Yet in ten to twenty years his performance will be exaggerated: "teams never even through to his side!"
+1

I think it's silly that teens or guys in their twenties will say Butkus was the best LB ever or Joe Greene was the best DT ever. Judge the guys from your era, not guys you've never seen play.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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Nnamdi Asomugha the last 2-3 seasons....
DEF. NOT!

has he been good? of coarse

but Champs 05-07 years were WAY better than Nnamdi's Champ was 2nd in DMVP voting that year....


Nnamdi has never been close to winning d player of the year
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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When I hear this question I think of Lawrence Taylor.
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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When I hear this question I think of Lawrence Taylor.
Yea LT, and Ray Lewis come to mind for me
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Old 09-29-2009, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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Champ from 05-07(3 years)

230 tackles, 44 passes defended, 21 Ints, 3 TD's


Nnamdi 05-08(4 years)

184 tackles, 41 passes defended, 10 ints, 1 TD's





And in those years champ played under coyer and bates, and the broncos CB played the most man to man match ups in the NFL...i think it was like 72% man coverage....and bailey was the least targeted in those 3 years

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Old 09-29-2009, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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1. Deion Sanders
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:26 AM    (permalink
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Lawrence Taylor changed the way the game was played forever.

He's far and away the greatest defensive player in NFL history.
There are others who changed the way the game is played at their position too.

Darrell Green and Deion were one of the first CBs who didn't play LCB or RCB, instead they lined up on an opponent's best WR.

Plenty of great DTs who changed the way OCs designed interior blocking schemes.

But whenever you see a big butt OT lined up in a two point stance selling out on a pass play, you can thank LT. No tackle in a three point stance could ever block him on passing downs. People talk about LT's sack numbers, but what they fail to mention is during the first 5-6 years of his career, whenever he rushed the QB, he always ended up in the backfield, sack or not. His pressure numbers on pass downs must be close to .850.


This list could be 50 deep easily. Where's Bruce Smith??

And Jack Tatum was a true psychotic at the safety position, the man who inspired the play of Ronnie Lott.

Start at 1960, and for each decade pick your top 10. That should give you roughly 30 to 40 of the best to ever play on the defensive side of the ball.
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Old 09-29-2009, 01:46 AM    (permalink
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Cool thread.

As someone who has only been following the sport for 5 years it is kind of fun to learn about the past, obviously I have made an effort to watch what I can, but in Australia that means internet only for getting games from the past so it is limited at best.

I wonder if in 20 years time the bias placed on past players will be as strong given that it is now very easy to obtain copies of every game online, will that clear and accessible footage lead to those players being downgraded as the game naturally gets bigger, faster and stronger?

I have followed basketball for basically 20 years now(17-18 to be precise) and I haven't noticed the same "love" for the 90's guys as I do for the 80s players. Guys like Stockton, Payton and Mark Price amongst others have basically been thrown under the bus since their retirement, it becomes particularly evident when you hear people talk about Steve Nash, who isn't half the player any of those 3 were but if you asked 10 average fan now he would be more highly regarded. Guys like Barkley, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Malone amongst others don't seem to get the love that lesser players are now and from the 80s did, they are almost a forgotten generation of players and that is just the stars, never mind the lesser players.

As for my take... the most "dominating" players that I have seen in my 5 years would be the following guys, trying to break it down a bit by position but mostly just going with the guys who have stood out...

DE - Jared Allen - Has been consistently dominant the last few years, both on a poor line and a great line.
DT - Kevin Williams - Has been the best DT in a 4-3 that I have seen in my time watching. Shaun Rogers and Tommie Harris have both had comparable seasons or individual games but Williams just stands out.
LB - Ray Lewis - Even at the end of his career, still dominant, still a star.
LB - Patrick Willis - Is every bit the defensive player that AD is offensive player. Willis is a genuine superstar in my book and a freak to boot.
OLB - Shawne Merriman - Was just so dominant a couple of years ago, genuinely created fear in offenses, I never get that same "vibe" off of Ware though he is every bit as good statistically.

CB - Bailey/Nmandi - On that same shutdown level.
CB - Antoine Winfield - Honourable mention for the way he plays the run, is not close to elite as a coverage man, but his run skills are as dominant as I have seen in a corner.

S - Sean Taylor - Was scary for the year a bit before he was killed. Such a pity as he was fun as hell to watch.
S - Polamalu/Reed - How do you separate these two? Reed is a game changer against the pass on another level, Polamalu more of an all around game changer but on the same level of impact.

I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, but those are the guys who stand out to me and came to mind when seeing the thread title.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:11 AM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babylon View Post
How could we forget Randy White? Once they moved him to the DL he was All World.

I loved Youngblood playing with the broken leg, they'd be out a year if that happened nowadays.
I love me some Youngblood, but playing through his injury wasn't some superhuman feat. He had a broken fibula, which is the non-weight bearing bone in the leg. I remember Khalif Barnes playing through a similar injury for Jacksonville early in his career.
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Old 09-29-2009, 03:18 AM    (permalink
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Lawrence Taylor was just dominant. I think he's the reason for the short intermediate passing game.
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Old 09-29-2009, 06:56 AM    (permalink
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I just loved hearing announcers claim Ray Lewis as "the best defender ever." Thats the biggest load of **** I've ever heard.
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