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Old 10-01-2009, 12:01 PM    (permalink
Staubach12
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I look at Randy Moss like I look at Barry Sanders: a dominant yet inconsistent walking highlight real. Sanders would be the best of all time if he was always on, but he wasn't. The reason Walter Payton is the best of all time, is that he was the best on a consistent basis. Same thing with Moss. Moss is incredible when he's on the top of his game, but he can't be consistent, and he's not always a team player, two things that Jerry Rice did along with being utterly dominant.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Moss can go up the middle and run short routes. He did it plenty against the Bills.

When asked to do it, he does it and does it well.

But theres really no point of him doing that. His job is to stretch the field. His deep routes are the reason why Wes Welker is so effective underneath. He stretches and opens up the field for the rest of his team to catch underneath routes.

He's at his best when he's stretching the field and taking both safeties along with him for the ride.

Asking him to run up the middle underneath is like having a Ferrari and taking it grocery shopping.

You have the beater car for that.
never said he couldnt or that he wasnt great at it...rice is simply better in this role...just like rice can stretch the field but not as good as moss....besides that i completely agree with your post.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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never said he couldnt or that he wasnt great at it...rice is simply better in this role...just like rice can stretch the field but not as good as moss....besides that i completely agree with your post.
oh absolutely, i agree with you.


I can only imagine how dominant Moss couldve been if he had the qb support that Rice had throughout his career. Thats taking nothing away from Rice, Rice is easily the greatest WR ever, but Moss is a badass in his own right.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Moss can go up the middle and run short routes. He did it plenty against the Bills.

When asked to do it, he does it and does it well.

But theres really no point of him doing that. His job is to stretch the field. His deep routes are the reason why Wes Welker is so effective underneath. He stretches and opens up the field for the rest of his team to catch underneath routes.

He's at his best when he's stretching the field and taking both safeties along with him for the ride.

Asking him to run up the middle underneath is like having a Ferrari and taking it grocery shopping.

You have the beater car for that.
This is the correct way of thinking, I agree that most of the 'weaknesses' people point out in Randy's game are more attributable to coaching. When you have the scariest deep threat around, you're going to stretch the field. Although I have seen some pretty effective Randy screens, those are fun.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:24 PM    (permalink
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well, and the fact that he regularly falls down to avoid contact of any kind. i can't imagine that lends itself to people thinking of him as an over-the-middle target.
this is true, but Owens does the same. and he's been known as a guy who works the quick slant as good as anyone.

you don't have to be a YAC machine to be effective up the middle of the field.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:30 PM    (permalink
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I'd put him at #3...He is undeniably the most talented WR of his time but I think CJ is ready to step into those shoes and may even be more talented than Moss.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Definitely top 3 receivers of all time, I'd probably have him at 2 just because I've always been a big fan of his. Maybe the most dominant ever, but it's not even disputable that Rice is the greatest. If all positions are equal, Rice is by far the greatest football player ever. Don't think that Rice was just great over a long period of time, he has the greatest yardage season ever, and the greatest TD season ever when he had 22 in only 12 games.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:43 PM    (permalink
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I going to play devil's advocate and say that Randy Moss is the greatest WR of all time:

1. No one has the physical ability he has; when he came into the league no one knew how to defend him and they still don't well into his career. He redefined what the WR position was about.

2. Unlike Jerry Rice he didn't have a Hall of Fame QB passing to him until 2007, and Rice had two of those Quarterbacks. Randy Moss made the likes of Matt Cassel, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins have productive seasons, something that they did not do without him. Even Tom Brady did not have prolific statistics, until he got Moss that is.

3. He may not have Rice's longevity, but in terms of dominance Moss has had more great seasons. He is the only WR in history to have three seasons of 17 or more touchdowns, that is out of this world. He averaged 12 per year for his first eight seasons. Rice's 87 season was better than Moss' 07 year, but overall I would take Randy Moss' career prime over Jerry Rice.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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I going to play devil's advocate and say that Randy Moss is the greatest WR of all time:

1. No one has the physical ability he has; when he came into the league no one knew how to defend him and they still don't well into his career. He redefined what the WR position was about.

2. Unlike Jerry Rice he didn't have a Hall of Fame QB passing to him until 2007, and Rice had two of those Quarterbacks. Randy Moss made the likes of Matt Cassel, Randall Cunningham, Jeff George, Daunte Culpepper, Kerry Collins have productive seasons, something that they did not do without him. Even Tom Brady did not have prolific statistics, until he got Moss that is.

3. He may not have Rice's longevity, but in terms of dominance Moss has had more great seasons. He is the only WR in history to have three seasons of 17 or more touchdowns, that is out of this world. He averaged 12 per year for his first eight seasons. Rice's 87 season was better than Moss' 07 year, but overall I would take Randy Moss' career prime over Jerry Rice.
*bites fist*

I can't say it. I just can't say it. Rice personifies the WR position. Its like saying Kevin Greene is better than LT bc he has more sacks. The stats may sound convincing when you sit back and look at it, but you just know its not true.

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definitely, and i'm not claiming this makes him a worse receiver. but it certainly impacts perception of his ability to do anything other than go deep.

i always wonder what moss would've been if you'd put rice's brain into his body.
Yeah, i definitely agree with that.

Or Rice's heart, or work ethic. Although Moss gets unfairly criticized for his work ethic. He has a great work ethic but Rice's was out of this world.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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I look at Randy Moss like I look at Barry Sanders: a dominant yet inconsistent walking highlight real. Sanders would be the best of all time if he was always on, but he wasn't. The reason Walter Payton is the best of all time, is that he was the best on a consistent basis. Same thing with Moss. Moss is incredible when he's on the top of his game, but he can't be consistent, and he's not always a team player, two things that Jerry Rice did along with being utterly dominant.
Inconsistent as in '2 yards, 2 yards, 60 yards??' or 'averaging a little over 1500 yards a year over 10 years with the line that he had??'

I know this is a thread about Moss but I have to stick up for Barry. Whichever inconsistent you mean, I respectfully disagree. (I know the 'if' game) If Barry had Emmits line, it would have been 60 yards, 60 yards, 59 yards and probably close to 1800 yards a year over 10 years.
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Old 10-01-2009, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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When comparing Rice to Moss, let's also remember the rule changes.

The rule change of not allowing CBs to rough up WRs beyond 5 yards has led to an exponential growth of #1 WRs.

Moss was dominant before the rule change, but you still have to factor in that half his career was played with CBs trying to outrun him after 5 yards.

Which obviously plays in Moss's favor.
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Old 10-01-2009, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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Inconsistent as in '2 yards, 2 yards, 60 yards??' or 'averaging a little over 1500 yards a year over 10 years with the line that he had??'

I know this is a thread about Moss but I have to stick up for Barry. Whichever inconsistent you mean, I respectfully disagree. (I know the 'if' game) If Barry had Emmits line, it would have been 60 yards, 60 yards, 59 yards and probably close to 1800 yards a year over 10 years.
You're overestimating the Lions O-line here if you think Barry would have been limited to 1800 per year with that group of Cowboy blockers :D
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Old 10-01-2009, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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While the argument for Jerry has already been made, I'd like to add that Moss has a problem with the dropsies. As far as I know (and I'll admit, I wasn't around to watch back then) Jerry never had that problem, and was always incredibly consistent.
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Old 10-01-2009, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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Jerry Rice was almost run out of San Francisco because he had a terrible case of the dropsies early in his career, very early I should add.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:00 PM    (permalink
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It should also be said that while no one ever questioned Rice's heart or work ethic, his attitude both towards coaches and teammates (not even to bring up opposing players) wasn't always smooth sailing. I know that's often glossed over now that he's out of the game (and I imagine a lot of Moss' problems will be mostly forgotten shortly after he retires), but there's plenty of times where Rice was a less than great teammate.

Even with all Moss has accomplished, he'll be a player that most people acknowledge had some unfulfilled potential. That alone probably keeps Rice as the majority choice for best receiver of all time, as there's few people who don't think he maximized his opportunities. That said, if I have choose between taking one for a year in their respective primes, there's no question that I'm picking Moss.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:05 PM    (permalink
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It should also be said that while no one ever questioned Rice's heart or work ethic, his attitude both towards coaches and teammates (not even to bring up opposing players) wasn't always smooth sailing. I know that's often glossed over now that he's out of the game (and I imagine a lot of Moss' problems will be mostly forgotten shortly after he retires), but there's plenty of times where Rice was a less than great teammate.

Even with all Moss has accomplished, he'll be a player that most people acknowledge had some unfulfilled potential. That alone probably keeps Rice as the majority choice for best receiver of all time, as there's few people who don't think he maximized his opportunities. That said, if I have choose between taking one for a year in their respective primes, there's no question that I'm picking Moss.
I think that's true with most great players....the competitor in them will get the best of them from time to time. They're all gonna be less than stellar teammates at one point.

Thing is....its been well documented that Moss will take plays off and that hurts his team. Jerry played his heart out every play.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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Except that if you ask any defensive back who has had to cover Randy Moss, they say that the hardest thing to do is to get a proper bead on him because he runs his routes are varying speeds all the time. And that includes jogging them.

Now, I know that Moss does give up on plays. I saw him do it routinely in his last year with the Raiders. And it was endlessly frustrating. But the fact that Moss doesn't go 100% speed all the time actually serves to make him that much more difficult to cover.
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Old 10-01-2009, 02:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
Except that if you ask any defensive back who has had to cover Randy Moss, they say that the hardest thing to do is to get a proper bead on him because he runs his routes are varying speeds all the time. And that includes jogging them.

Now, I know that Moss does give up on plays. I saw him do it routinely in his last year with the Raiders. And it was endlessly frustrating. But the fact that Moss doesn't go 100% speed all the time actually serves to make him that much more difficult to cover.
Well I'm pretty sure if you ask many of the CBs that covered Rice would say his pin point route running made him incredibly tough to cover as well.

No doubt that Moss has more talent than Jerry but like we used to say in the wrestling room....hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard.....I'm not saying Randy doesn't work hard but Jerry's out of this world commitment puts him ahead of Moss in my book.....

And uummm....my #2 is Timmie Brown but that's just homerism i think
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
When comparing Rice to Moss, let's also remember the rule changes.

The rule change of not allowing CBs to rough up WRs beyond 5 yards has led to an exponential growth of #1 WRs.

Moss was dominant before the rule change, but you still have to factor in that half his career was played with CBs trying to outrun him after 5 yards.

Which obviously plays in Moss's favor.
Good point, but Rice also was playing in a revolutionary offensive system that teams didn't know how to defend for a very long time.
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Old 10-01-2009, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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1. Jerry Rice
2. Randy Moss
3. Don Hutson

Rice is the best because he ran every route perfectly and had some of the best hands of all time. I think I saw him drop maybe 3 balls in his career. Rice also went all over the field where Moss lives on the outside and deep.

Randy Moss is the most talented draft prospect I have ever evaluated. His combination of height, incredibly long arms, huge hands, leaping ability, and incredible speed and quickness are unmatched in history. If someone wanted to create the perfect WR from scratch I think Randy Moss would be the model.

I have never seen anyone eat up a cusion like Randy. Usually a speed WR has his man beat when they get even with the CB, but Moss has them beat when he gets within 3-5 yards of them. His acceleration from 10-50 yards is unparalleled. He beats defeners who have great angles on him easily. Most pure speed WR's are not great changing direction, but Moss is incredible at maintaining speed out of breaks.

DeAngelo Hall was twice the NFL's fastest man and you saw what Randy did to him in that video.

Simply put, Randy is the most freakish athlete to ever play WR, but it is a shame that he failed to learn to run precise routes and go over the middle. Also, his hands fail him at times. He makes some of the most incredible catches look routine and turns some routine catches into drops.

People need to also remember that Moss was the reason that the Patriots took the late lead in the Super Bowl against the Giants catching the go ahead TD pass, and had an incredible game. He also had a great game in the 1998 Championship against Atlanta, when Gary Anderson decided to miss his first field goal of the season.

Rice is the GOAT, but Moss in his prime would be the one I would pay to see play.
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Paranoidmoonduck View Post
Except that if you ask any defensive back who has had to cover Randy Moss, they say that the hardest thing to do is to get a proper bead on him because he runs his routes are varying speeds all the time. And that includes jogging them.

Now, I know that Moss does give up on plays. I saw him do it routinely in his last year with the Raiders. And it was endlessly frustrating. But the fact that Moss doesn't go 100% speed all the time actually serves to make him that much more difficult to cover.
Im so glad someone mentioned this. A lot of times its perceived that he's dogging it, but its simply not true. He likes lining up his DB's body in a position relative to his own so that when he explodes and turns on the 6th gear, he'll blow right by him.

If Moss just ran full speed down the field on every play, he'd be easy to cover. But his ability to really make DBs guess his speed and how to align their bodies relative to his is why he can run downfield every play and still get open.

And once you start giving him too much cushion, he runs those come back routes and just screws you.


Ive also seen him mix up his speed midroute to align a DB with another body and create his own pick. Randy Moss gets killed as a bad route runner, but thats far from the truth. Moss is a very good route runner. Nobody runs teh deep patterns better than him.

Yes, he does dog it once in awhile, but honestly, ever WR does. He just gets more pub for it bc its Randy Moss. He doesn't help his cause either by saying some of the things he says to the media about it. It only magnifies it.

Im glad someone else brought this up.
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Old 10-01-2009, 06:33 PM    (permalink
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Greatest receiving playmaker of all time.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:31 PM    (permalink
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He had back-to-back 100 catch seasons, in 2002 and 2003. He, along with Wes Welker, Sterling Sharpe, Jerry Rice, Herman Moore, Cris Carter, Marvin Harrison, and Rod Smith are the only receivers to accomplish this feat.
I know it wasn't the basis or point of your argument, but you left Brandon Marshall off of this list of accomplishments. 102 catches in 07, and 104 in 08. Didn't read through the whole thread to see if this was pointed out or not.


Now as far as Moss, right now he's not the greatest WR ever, but when you look at the pace he's still going at, putting up the insane number of catches he is this year, and having Brady for the last few years of his career, I definately think he'll at least make an argument.


For so long it's always been Jerry Rice [/argument] when it comes to greatest WR ever. If Moss can sustain this level of play 4 or 5 more years I see no reason why he wouldn't be.
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Old 10-01-2009, 10:43 PM    (permalink
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I know it wasn't the basis or point of your argument, but you left Brandon Marshall off of this list of accomplishments. 102 catches in 07, and 104 in 08. Didn't read through the whole thread to see if this was pointed out or not.


Now as far as Moss, right now he's not the greatest WR ever, but when you look at the pace he's still going at, putting up the insane number of catches he is this year, and having Brady for the last few years of his career, I definately think he'll at least make an argument.


For so long it's always been Jerry Rice [/argument] when it comes to greatest WR ever. If Moss can sustain this level of play 4 or 5 more years I see no reason why he wouldn't be.
Very good point, he should have three or four more productive seasons left in him. (unlike T.O) He will be 2nd in every significant WR category.
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:00 PM    (permalink
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Very good point, he should have three or four more productive seasons left in him. (unlike T.O) He will be 2nd in every significant WR category.
I have a suspicion Randy has quite a few years left in him honestly. He will always have length and hands to rely on when his speed drops off.
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