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Old 10-14-2009, 03:15 PM    (permalink
d34ng3l021
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Originally Posted by Jughead10 View Post
The biggest test this week is for the NO defense. Much improved it's been this year, but between the Vikings, Giants, and Saints, the Saints defense is the one unit that can be questioned the most.
I am really liking Eli's progression this year, but I am still not completely sold on the Giants passing offense. Manning has put up some great numbers this year, but the level of competition is just terrible. He has dominated WAS (2-3), DAL (3-2), TB (0-5), KC (0-5), and OAK (1-4), which is the only thing he could really do, but what is going to happen to the 'uber balanced' Giants and their offense if they run into MIN, SF, or PHI in the playoffs? Or a decent team for that matter. It will be interesting to see how this passing offense progresses over the course of the season with the young wideouts.

I am still questioning the Saints defense. Everyone says it has changed and is good enough for the Saints to reach the SB, but, once again, look at who the Saints defense has to deal with at QB: Stafford (1st career start), Kolb (1st career start), Edwards (26th start) Sanchez (4th career start). Not only is there hardly any experience there, but the quality of the passers hasn't been that great either. I think we will get a better grasp of how legit this Saints D is when they play franchise QBs in Eli Manning and Matt Ryan in 2 of the next 3 weeks (Chad Henne in between).
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
oh, right, just like YOU'RE assuming the broncos would have the same gameplan. when it's actually fairly obvious to anyone who's watched that the offense has completely changed from week one.
No, not at all? You're a moron. I never said the Broncos would have the same game plan. The whole point of my post was that both teams would be so different I doubt that the out come would be anything similar.


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seriously? THIS is what you come back with? i'm glad your fellow fans CAN'T WAIT for a rematch with a 5-0 team because injuries happen. bloody brilliant argument. i'm so glad you were here to bring that up.
Once again, you took 1 part of my argument and decided to to attack that, instead of the whole paragraph (or post). I'm not going to sit here and correct your terrible debating techniques, but seriously open your eyes and read the entire paragraph, it was a 3 point argument.



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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
no, i'm taking a jab at fans who say stupid things and don't bother following up with remotely worthwhile arguments supporting what they think. but hey, blind homerism must look logical when you agree with it.
Once again, this is just a soft jab that has nothing to do with football, my argument or even me. I didn't say "stupid things", I followed it up with a relevant point, and I never had blind homerism. In fact, I never even said Cinci would win a game against Denver in January - my whole point was our offense will be very different by then, as will their defense, our defense and their offense.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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I reserve the right to wait a little while longer before I proclaim Eli Manning as having broken out. He looks great, Smith and Manningham have made plays, he is much more accurate and poised than he used to be. However, he has yet to finish a season strong. Part of that is the weather in Giants Stadium, but not all of it can be attributed to that. That being said I think he has passed Roethlisberger on my personal QB depth chart.
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Old 10-14-2009, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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I reserve the right to wait a little while longer before I proclaim Eli Manning as having broken out. He looks great, Smith and Manningham have made plays, he is much more accurate and poised than he used to be. However, he has yet to finish a season strong. Part of that is the weather in Giants Stadium, but not all of it can be attributed to that. That being said I think he has passed Roethlisberger on my personal QB depth chart.
I think Eli is 3rd for me, but I haven't really thought about QB rankings in a long time :P
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Flyboy View Post
Definitely. This is a game we have to get good production from our front four - what they did against the Jets' offensive line was impressive, but we'll need a repeat performance if we're hoping to win. I think Gregg Williams attacks Eli early to disrupt him.
How has Sedrick Ellis been playing?
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Old 10-14-2009, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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How has Sedrick Ellis been playing?
He's been a disruptive force in the interior, he only has 1 sack but he has been pushing the pocket, and drawing a lot of attention which opens things up for our Ends, and blitzers.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:32 PM    (permalink
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What Auron said.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i'm curious if you've read any part of the original comment or post that i replied to, or if you just saw "bengals" and started foaming at the mouth with an uncontrollable urge to defend something that you shouldn't be defending. your bengals fan buddy said "i'll sneeze at the denver win over cincinnatti. i hope we see them in january." i'm refuting that by suggesting that sneezing at a game in which you utterly failed to play anything remotely resembling offense is bloody asinine. please TRY to keep up. or at least don't jump into arguments when you don't have the faintest bloody clue what's being argued.
Why is asinine to suggest that we would be a better team come January? why is it asinine to suggest that we are a better team now even?

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the game would be different? whoop-dee-fricking-doo. what a brilliant statement.
you're the one that suggested we would perform in a similar fashion putting up no points for 3 and a half quarters.


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i'm sorry, do you not understand breaking up your quote into parts? or do you have some bizarre notion that i have to respond to the entire thing all at once? do i need a topic sentence?
Alright moron, here's how it went; I originally made a 3 point argument that involved the topic of injuries. You decided to quote the entire 3 point argument, and then only focus on the injury part of it.

I don't care if you break my post up. Hell, the post you just responded to was broken up into quotes by me.

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
which is good, because you wouldn't know where to start.
Let's avoid this one all together. Nothing worse than 2 internet idiots arguing over who argues better.

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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
you're telling me to read the argument? when you've demonstrably failed to read anything that precipitated your "ZOMG THINGS WOULD BE DIFFERENT!?!?!!" garbage? that's fun. say something else ironic.
Never once did I use the word zomg, nor did I capitalize all of my words. But once again, instead of using an argument against me, you just attack me with me a soft jab.

By the way, yes, I'm telling you to the read argument. It had 3 points in it, to reiterate, here they are:

1) New coaching staffs have zero tape on them in week 1, this will change by January. No one knew what McDaniels had in mind both offensively and defensively. Even in week 5, we still don't know everything he has planned. However, we know more now than we did in week 1 and we'll know more in week 16 than we do now.

2) Teams are not in a rhythm in week 1 and generally need to shake a little rust off or get use to a play book, both offensively and defensively. Both teams played poorly in week 1, to say the least. I believe that both would play at a much higher level of competition if they were to play against again sometime in the play offs.

3) Teams change from week 1 to the play offs. Players get cut / traded / injured. That is a big part of football, regardless if you want to dismiss it or not. Ask the Chargers fans here how they felt about L.T. being injured in their last several play off games or ask the Patriots how they felt when Tom Brady went down last year.

I even made them longer, so you don't have to infer much from it. When I first posted I assumed you knew all these things, but now it sounds like you don't.


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it clearly has nothing to do with you, since i wasn't bloody talking to you in the first place. for the love of god learn how to read.



no, you followed it up with a stupid point. your fellow fan displayed the homerism. but remember, that would've required having some idea what was going on before hitting "SUBMIT REPLY". i know it's a big shiny button, but please try to refrain in the future.



yet again, epic. i still don't understand why you had to play white knight when you didn't even know who or what you're defending, but props. you've made yourself look thoroughly silly.
This is all just you throwing out attacks at me that really don't have anything to do my argument, so I'll leave them alone.
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Old 10-14-2009, 10:56 PM    (permalink
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:grabs popcorn:
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Old 10-14-2009, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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:grabs popcorn:
No point, going to stop now because it's turning into "you're saying x" and the other guy saying "you're arguing Z". It's gotten out of hand, and that was my fault - I apologize.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:04 AM    (permalink
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I reserve the right to wait a little while longer before I proclaim Eli Manning as having broken out. He looks great, Smith and Manningham have made plays, he is much more accurate and poised than he used to be. However, he has yet to finish a season strong. Part of that is the weather in Giants Stadium, but not all of it can be attributed to that. That being said I think he has passed Roethlisberger on my personal QB depth chart.
I don't know how you missed it but Eli has been a great QB across the board since 07. Since that playoff run he hasn't posted any really bad performances in his own right, even in the 08 playoffs. I know you're not a "win games lol" crazy poster, so I don't really know what your reasoning is here.

He's a solid quarterback who's capable of winning games with his arm and has done so on several occasions.

I don't know what more Eli has to do to get more people on board.

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Definitely. This is a game we have to get good production from our front four - what they did against the Jets' offensive line was impressive, but we'll need a repeat performance if we're hoping to win. I think Gregg Williams attacks Eli early to disrupt him.
The biggest thing in this game is the Saints running backs and how they play.

Consider that the Giants have the ability with their backs, line and myriad of emerging receivers to march a balanced drive down the field against just about any defense in the NFL, will give their impressive line a decent period of rest.

The Saints could run the risk of gassing their defense if they get behind early and then end up going three and out more than once or if they quick strike for a score.

I know the first half this isn't really an issue, but when you've got a defense predicated on the line play as Williams' defenses tend to be, you've got to put together sustained clock draining drives that give the line plenty of chance to catch their breath and recharge.

If the Saints depleted running back core fails to fire and be effective, the game will go to the giants. Then again, the flipside is the same, if the Giants fail to establish the running game, or the backs falter, it could be a Saints win.

All about the trenches and backs in this one imo.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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If the Saints depleted running back core fails to fire and be effective
Huh? We're just coming off a bye week and all three of our backs will be active and a go on Sunday including Mike Bell.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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My bad, I thought Mike Bell was still out, even so, the crux of the argument still holds merit.
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Old 10-15-2009, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how you missed it but Eli has been a great QB across the board since 07. Since that playoff run he hasn't posted any really bad performances in his own right, even in the 08 playoffs. I know you're not a "win games lol" crazy poster, so I don't really know what your reasoning is here.

He's a solid quarterback who's capable of winning games with his arm and has done so on several occasions.

I don't know what more Eli has to do to get more people on board.

When I say "broken out" I mean he has become a top-5, truly elite QB. He is getting there though. I see no reason for him not to be there at the end of this season. I was disappointed by how he handled the absence of Burress/Shockey late last year, but I am more than impressed with what he has done with Manningham, Nicks and Smith this year.
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Old 10-15-2009, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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When I say "broken out" I mean he has become a top-5, truly elite QB. He is getting there though. I see no reason for him not to be there at the end of this season. I was disappointed by how he handled the absence of Burress/Shockey late last year, but I am more than impressed with what he has done with Manningham, Nicks and Smith this year.
The big thing will be the late season home games like you said. I truly think it is a weather thing. Eli across his career has always played better in warm weather/domes. Even played very well in milder late season games such as week 17 in 2007 against the Pats. That was a pretty mild weather game for late in December. Compared to a late November game that year against the Skins when the weather was absolutely terrible. When that wind is blowing, its tough for him. And the fact that we played the Eagles and McNabb last year, it just made it so much more obvious cause McNabb has a super strong arm. That being said, I'd rather have Eli than Donovan at this point.
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Old 10-15-2009, 11:14 AM    (permalink
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cinci fans shouldn't ***** about the loss to denver, considering the pathetic excuse for an offense they had. feel free to argue with what i actually said, instead of whatever you've decided you wanted me to say.

ie, and it's largely why you lost. blame it on tape, or your coaching staff or whatever you want, but it's not like no one's ever seen mike nolan's defense or josh mcdaniels' offense. as much as you'd like to pretend they haven't.

i don't care how they'd play in the playoffs. you lost largely because your offense was incompetent. let's see if repeating my original point helps it sink in.

i don't bloody care how any of those fans "felt" about their players going down. you had your studs in week one and they didn't produce. we had a dumbed down version of our offense and barely produced. it's not largely relevant to me what would happen by january until january.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OneiE...eature=related . That's all I really need to justify my original post. Palmer takes it 11 plays 91 yards in the last five minutes, sparking an offense that was largely ineffective and inefficient during the game. Then the Broncos win on that play. The Broncos total yards before that play: 215.

I'm sorry, I'm not a true believer in the Denver Broncos as a surefire playoff team. This isn't blind homerism, I've been lucky enough to watch the Broncos play the Bengals, Browns, Cowboys, and Patriots. I was impressed by the progression of the Broncos team, that running game, and Kyle Orton. That team is really coming along and playing hard for McDaniels.

I've also been lucky enough to watch the Bengals in all five of their games this season. I watched two incredible games against strong division rivals, the sloppy, inconsistent game they played against Cleveland, the offensive breakout and Antwan Odom show in Green Bay, and of course the Denver game. I wouldn't have made this argument before last week's respective games against Baltimore and New England. I saw both these teams pull out hard-fought wins. I've seen the Broncos' second gear. I've also seen the Bengals'.

Both offenses have found the identity they didn't have in the first week of the season. The Bengals are right now flexing their power in game-winning spurts. No quarterback in the league is playing better in the clutch than Carson Palmer, not even Kyle Orton who has won some close games late himself. The Bengals ran for 100 yards against both the Steelers and the Ravens, who at 2nd and 4th respectively, are both still ahead of the Broncos in that category. What I've realized after watching both team's games, the Broncos have progressed as a team greatly, but the Bengals clearly came in to the season overlooking Denver, at the same time not really knowing what to expect, they played very much like they did against the Cleveland Browns.

What it comes down to is I feel more impressed with the wins against Pittsburgh and last week in Baltimore, than I do the win over the Cowboys, and Patriots. I simply think the Bengals on their game are a stronger team than the Broncos on their game and I like the long-term potential of this season for the Bengals more so than the Broncos.

After reading your argument above, I think I'd be foolish not to provide reasoning with that last statement. I think the reason I say that stems from three units primarily: the Bengals Offensive Line, Wide Receivers, and Linebackers.

The Offensive Line really showed what it was made of last week and in Week 3's win against the Steelers, allowing all of two sacks combined in tose two games and leading the way for over 100 yards rushing. The unit including Andrew Whitworth, Evan Mathis, Kyle Cook, Bobbie Williams, Dennis Roland, and Anthony Collins has surprising versatility, exceptional run-blocking ability, and is not yet complete. The reason I'd watch the Bengals offensive line, in addition to the way they are currently playing, is the late season push that could be Andre Smith.

It'd be nice to think Andre, who should be cleared to practice soon, would be in the starting lineup after the bye week. Though that's not likely, he has done very well with his conditioning and has been drawing compliments from Marvin Lewis. The thought of a healthy, well-conditioned Andre Smith at Right Tackle makes me think this team is just going to get better. If Smith claimed that starting Right Tackle spot, say around Nov. 22nd against Oakland, this offense could take off... especially that ground game. Dennis Roland, who the club obviously likes a lot, has played as a 2nd TE on the right side (functioning as an OT) a lot this season, and could move back to that role alongside Smith. Andrew Whitworth is one of the league's elite run blocking tackles, Smith has the potential to be that type of player on the right side for the Bengals which already includes Bobbie Williams, who exceeds 340 pounds. That's going to be a big, powerful, physical offensive line.

As for WRs, the Bengals are just starting to get there. Chad Ochocinco's getting there, as is Chris Henry. Andre Caldwell, on the other hand, has began to emerge as T.J. Houshmanzadeh's replacement in the slot. Meanwhile you have Laverneus Coles there as well. The timing is getting there, and that's what I thought was evident last week in Baltimore. I'm interested to see what the receivers can do this week against Houston and next week against Chicago. I expect them to become more of a priority as Palmer's confidence has returned.

And the LBs, they're starting to get there as well. Rey Maualuga had perhaps his best game yet against the Ravens. The same could be said for Dhani Jones. Keith Rivers is quietly a very good player and will continue to improve. Backup LB Brandon Johnson may be our best coverage LB at WLB, and Rashad Jeanty is still a more than serviceable player. This unit is starting to gel and has some real potential. You have to like the amount of players on the Bengals defense that like to be tone-setters. I would imagine that the Bengals Linebackers will be the signature unit of the Bengals Defense if we are to make the playoffs/win the AFC North.

Those are three units for the Bengals that I think are very likely to show marked improvement as we move through the season and are reasons, that if the Bengals and Broncos were to be matched up against one another in January, I think the Bengals would win.

You may point to the Broncos WR's (Marshall/Royal/Gaffney), OL, running game, and ability to put pressure on the passer. That would be fine. Since we are talking about a hypothetical situation, I find it completely reasonable for there to be two or more different opinions on the subject.

The reason I said anything at all is because the original poster said their wins over Cincinnati, Dallas, and New England were nothing to sneeze at. Where they fought, clawed, and really earned it against both the Cowboys and Patriots, I said I'd sneeze at the win in Cincinnati. Sure I'm bitter about that loss and would love another chance. I remember when the game was going on the announcers said that they were two teams that were clearly just bad teams. Ironic, since that's the last day either of those teams lost, a combined 9-1 start. I said I'd love to see that matchup in January, and I absolutely would... you would too.

You may think the Broncos would win, I may think the Bengals would win. It's a hypothetical situation. Realistically, both these teams may be unlikely to both be standing in January, let alone play one another. How great an AFC Championship story would that be though? haha

Who knows, I could very well take back that opinion by next week if Cincinnati loses to Houston and Denver beats San Diego. Right now, though, I'd love to see a playoff matchup between these teams.
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:36 PM    (permalink
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The big thing will be the late season home games like you said. I truly think it is a weather thing. Eli across his career has always played better in warm weather/domes. Even played very well in milder late season games such as week 17 in 2007 against the Pats. That was a pretty mild weather game for late in December. Compared to a late November game that year against the Skins when the weather was absolutely terrible. When that wind is blowing, its tough for him. And the fact that we played the Eagles and McNabb last year, it just made it so much more obvious cause McNabb has a super strong arm. That being said, I'd rather have Eli than Donovan at this point.

Absolutely true.

Your point about arm strength being a great benefit in Giants stadium reminds me of all the idiot Jets' fans that wanted Matt Leinart back in '06. He isn't good in Arizona, in a dome, with Boldin and Fitzgerald; how bad would he have been with the Jets?
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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I don't know how you missed it but Eli has been a great QB across the board since 07.
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He's a solid quarterback who's capable of winning games with his arm and has done so on several occasions.
Is he great or solid?
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Absolutely true.

Your point about arm strength being a great benefit in Giants stadium reminds me of all the idiot Jets' fans that wanted Matt Leinart back in '06. He isn't good in Arizona, in a dome, with Boldin and Fitzgerald; how bad would he have been with the Jets?
I want to know how Carroll benched Cassell for Leinart... I know Leinart was amazing in college, but wouldn't Cassell have done even better then?
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Old 10-15-2009, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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I want to know how Carroll benched Cassell for Leinart... I know Leinart was amazing in college, but wouldn't Cassell have done even better then?
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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If only Carson Palmer didn't rely on the last drive of the game to turn it on. They can only coast on that for so long.
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Old 10-16-2009, 01:46 PM    (permalink
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If only Carson Palmer didn't rely on the last drive of the game to turn it on. They can only coast on that for so long.
Worked for eli for years. *shrug* at least for getting to the playoffs.
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Old 10-16-2009, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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If only Carson Palmer didn't rely on the last drive of the game to turn it on. They can only coast on that for so long.
Carson Palmer had his turning point in Week 4 against Cleveland. He had a game plagued by drops and inconsistency. It looked like the Bengals really may not be for real, and Palmer may not be fully back. But, a 4th and 11 play in which Palmer decided to take off and run with it, for 15 yards, changed the Bengals season. That play, right there, returned Carson Palmer's full confidence in his ankle and knee.

Early this season, and last season when Palmer had time, he could make plays. That was a pretty steep condition, as the offensive line wasn't healthy, tough, or talented. Psychologically, he just didn't play with full confidence. He took sacks too easily and made bad decisions under pressure. That's partially why he'd play so well late in games. Teams kind of had to back up and play more of a conservative defense. That was, before that run in Cleveland. Against Baltimore, Palmer played much more confidently even with pressure in his face. His accuracy was excellent in that game, and had it not been for a couple nice plays by Baltimore's cornerbacks, the game could have gotten out of hand.

This conveniently is coming at the same time that the offensive line is showing marked improvement, including only 1 sack allowed to each Pittsburgh and Baltimore. With that line in front of him, getting better every week, and Palmer's confidence in his ankle fully returned, this offense could finally be ready to take off.

So let's see what Palmer can put together this week against a poor pass defense. My guess is he's not going to have to rely on a 4th Quarter performance, he didn't last week.
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Old 10-16-2009, 05:11 PM    (permalink
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If only Carson Palmer didn't rely on the last drive of the game to turn it on. They can only coast on that for so long.
Unfortunately it's not a new concept. Carson has always been amazing in the 2 minute drill, in fact in '06 and '07 we often had him run a no huddle offense for 2 to 4 series a game because he was so good at it. It just didn't matter then because our defense couldn't keep teams down and eventually we would have to go back to a normal offense.
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