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Old 11-02-2009, 05:56 PM    (permalink
Scotty D
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I'll be very happy if we draft #1 overall again. That is how you get the impact talent to become a champion down the road.
Honestly, I think that mindset is disgusting.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:12 PM    (permalink
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I'll be very happy if we draft #1 overall again. That is how you get the impact talent to become a champion down the road.
Sarcastic ... right?
This team is spending themselves broke! How many top 10 overall contracts are on this team, or are the Lions paying for? C Johnson, Stafford, Backus, Sims (Harrington, Williams, Williams, Rogers could still possibly be on the books as well!!)

There is a reason teams like New England are constantly trying to trade out of their first round pick. Scout 2nd, 3rd 4th round gems while avoiding the mega contract to an unproven commodity.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:36 PM    (permalink
Scotty D
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Originally Posted by SINCE1978 View Post
Sarcastic ... right?
This team is spending themselves broke! How many top 10 overall contracts are on this team, or are the Lions paying for? C Johnson, Stafford, Backus, Sims (Harrington, Williams, Williams, Rogers could still possibly be on the books as well!!)

There is a reason teams like New England are constantly trying to trade out of their first round pick. Scout 2nd, 3rd 4th round gems while avoiding the mega contract to an unproven commodity.
Yeah, having to give unproven players 40 million guaranteed is how teams fail. You are giving Suh an Albert Haynesworth contract basically. What a joke!
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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i would prefer 3rd-10th. any of the 5 or so top non QB prospects would help this team dramatically. give me suh, mccoy, berry, or okung. if we trade down then mays, patrick robinson, and/or cody. now that i'm dreaming... patrick robinson, terrance cody, and brandon graham would be a nice trade down package.

actually an all rookie team plus stafford, calvin, julian, foote, and delmas would be an improvement.
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Old 11-02-2009, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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I think this could be a good year for teams to trade up to #1. Especially with the Redskins hovering around Top 5 area. Dan Snyder isn't afraid to spend money, or draft picks. I can see him becoming enamored with a QB, like Clausen, and just breaking the bank for him. I don't know, maybe the trade could be #1/our pick for 2010 Round 1 (#5-7?), Round 2 and 2011 Round 1. Trade ups have been pretty cheap the past couple of years though so who knows.. just throwing it out there.
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Old 11-03-2009, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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Sarcastic ... right?
This team is spending themselves broke! How many top 10 overall contracts are on this team, or are the Lions paying for? C Johnson, Stafford, Backus, Sims (Harrington, Williams, Williams, Rogers could still possibly be on the books as well!!)

There is a reason teams like New England are constantly trying to trade out of their first round pick. Scout 2nd, 3rd 4th round gems while avoiding the mega contract to an unproven commodity.
Harrington and Rogers and Mike Williams have been off the books for several years now. Roy Williams is off the books this next offseason.Staffords contract has alot of incentive/one big roster bonus(due next year in an uncapped year most likely) and a pretty mediocre size signing bonus but he's worth it if he plays well. Calvin is worth the money too. Sims is fairly cheap actually from the 9th pick in 2006 like 2 or 3 million cap number I think. And Backus should be cut this year and save us 2.5 million. Most of the high failed picks are off the books, Backus is finally cuttable money wise and next year might be uncapped anyway. One more big contract for a guy like Suh or Okung or McCoy is worth it, if they work out because this team needs talent badly on D and LT. Plus we have to hit on the Rounds 2-4 and develop guys like Levy,Hill,Delmas etc.

Pats can trade down because they already have the big impact stud players and they trade down from a spot in the 20s which isn't that far into the second round. They got lucky and got Brady so didn't need to draft a QB high but they are paying Brady a ton of money. Moss and Welker have fairly high contracts, Mayo is a top 10 pick,Wilfork is due some money,Adalius Thomas has a big contract, and everyone else is cheaper because the Pats were winning so they had later picks in the draft. Lions don't have the luxury of winning so they have to pick top 10 but we still are able to spend when we want to. For instance we took a big cap hit on the Redding trade and pay Peterson like 7 million, signed Foote and signed whoever else we could get to want to play here. They weren't huge contracts but we signed alot of people last offseason. Some have worked out, but some have not mainly the secondary of Buchanon,Henry and King who were all cheap lower tier free agents.

Plus its not like the Pats go out and spend a ton of money in free agency anyway. Thats the only benefit of picking more guys in Round 2 for cheaper, you have a ton of cap space which the Pats don't use except for the one year for Thomas,Moss and Welker. Those guys wanted to play for the Pats, the Pats had to use picks to get them. Should have been more picks for Moss IMO but the Raiders are idiots.

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Old 11-03-2009, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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1) DT Suh Neb. He is a true playmaker at DT. led his team in tackles? insane!

2) Brandon Graham DE Mich. I love him. will play well both ways.

3) Mike Johnson G Alabama. i prefer vlad ducasse, but he will improve our line depth.

4) Dexter McCluster RB/WR Ole Miss. curveball. here is our sproles/harvin/reggie bush. with the way our offense blocks every play could turn into a screen to him. having him there on dump offs will give the d-line something to think about and slow that pass rush down. plus he's not an ''every down'' back so hopefully kevin won't feel threatened. 7 catches 137 yards 1td and 22 rushes for 123 yards against arkansas last week...we can use him. maybe even 3rd round.

5) who knows what corner will be here yet? get me a corner! any corner!

5) Dan Williams DT Tennessee. 6'3" 327 DT from Tennessee. What more do we need to know? they know how to produce DTs in the volunteer state.

6) Myron Rolle S Oxford. i think he's stable but unspectacular. beats the s*** out of manuel who is anything but stable. and this is 6th round.

7) Drew Davis OT Alabama. 6'7" 305lbs. Lets get some size out there for depth. this is 7th round so not looking for left tackle of future, just depth potential.
I would be very, very happy if this is how the draft went down. We would end up with a great young DT rotation of Suh, Hill and Williams which would be very solid for several years.

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Old 11-03-2009, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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There I changed it for you.
Should or could? Yeah... I'd like to think that Cleveland is probably the worst team in the NFL now. Then you have Lions, Tampa Bay and Kansas City. If we have Johnson back I'm thinking the order of worst to least worse is TBay, Detroit, KC but its pretty close and you could argue either way. For as bad as we were on Sunday, Cleveland was terrible against the Bears and just as bad the week before.

I still stick by "should" but both teams are so low its really a tossup.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
1) DT Suh Neb. He is a true playmaker at DT. led his team in tackles? insane!

2) Brandon Graham DE Mich. I love him. will play well both ways.

3) Mike Johnson G Alabama. i prefer vlad ducasse, but he will improve our line depth.

4) Dexter McCluster RB/WR Ole Miss. curveball. here is our sproles/harvin/reggie bush. with the way our offense blocks every play could turn into a screen to him. having him there on dump offs will give the d-line something to think about and slow that pass rush down. plus he's not an ''every down'' back so hopefully kevin won't feel threatened. 7 catches 137 yards 1td and 22 rushes for 123 yards against arkansas last week...we can use him. maybe even 3rd round.

5) who knows what corner will be here yet? get me a corner! any corner!

5) Dan Williams DT Tennessee. 6'3" 327 DT from Tennessee. What more do we need to know? they know how to produce DTs in the volunteer state.

6) Myron Rolle S Oxford. i think he's stable but unspectacular. beats the s*** out of manuel who is anything but stable. and this is 6th round.

7) Drew Davis OT Alabama. 6'7" 305lbs. Lets get some size out there for depth. this is 7th round so not looking for left tackle of future, just depth potential.
I say if Rolle goes into the draft, he gets taken a lot earlier. Wasn't the guy projected as a 1st rounder last year? I think someone will jump up in the 4th to take him.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SINCE1978 View Post
Sarcastic ... right?
This team is spending themselves broke! How many top 10 overall contracts are on this team, or are the Lions paying for? C Johnson, Stafford, Backus, Sims (Harrington, Williams, Williams, Rogers could still possibly be on the books as well!!)

There is a reason teams like New England are constantly trying to trade out of their first round pick. Scout 2nd, 3rd 4th round gems while avoiding the mega contract to an unproven commodity.
Most of the cap hits are already taken for Millen's flops and there is no problem paying C. Johnson or Stafford the money they will get.
Comparing New England to our situation is ridiculous, they have a very solid core of talent around which they just have to fill a position or 2 every year and they have solid proven scouts and A GM who, in working with BB rarely make a mistake. There are no other teams like New England when it comes to the draft, they are an exception to the rule. New England drafted Mayo high and will use a high pick this year with Oakland's pick to find necessary replacements. Now that they are replacing their aging impact players like Seau and Seymour, they will keep their high picks and only trade back if they think they can get real value later on in round 1. In Mayo's case they believed he would still be there a few picks later and took the risk of trading back a few spots and still getting him.
Teams like New England who already have a solid foundation to work with can trade back if they feel like it, they aren't desperate to find impact players like the Lions are, this gives them many options on draft day, something a losing franchise just doesn't have.
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Old 11-03-2009, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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I say if Rolle goes into the draft, he gets taken a lot earlier. Wasn't the guy projected as a 1st rounder last year? I think someone will jump up in the 4th to take him.
I don't think so. He might get a flier in round 6 or 7 but no earlier. He places school ahead of any football career so few teams will even take a flier on him that late in the draft. He has shown little interest in a pro career and has other goals on his mind like maybe the presidency.
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Old 11-03-2009, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe Next Year Millen2 View Post
Harrington and Rogers and Mike Williams have been off the books for several years now. Roy Williams is off the books this next offseason.Staffords contract has alot of incentive/one big roster bonus(due next year in an uncapped year most likely) and a pretty mediocre size signing bonus but he's worth it if he plays well. Calvin is worth the money too. Sims is fairly cheap actually from the 9th pick in 2006 like 2 or 3 million cap number I think. And Backus should be cut this year and save us 2.5 million. Most of the high failed picks are off the books, Backus is finally cuttable money wise and next year might be uncapped anyway. One more big contract for a guy like Suh or Okung or McCoy is worth it, if they work out because this team needs talent badly on D and LT. Plus we have to hit on the Rounds 2-4 and develop guys like Levy,Hill,Delmas etc.

Pats can trade down because they already have the big impact stud players and they trade down from a spot in the 20s which isn't that far into the second round. They got lucky and got Brady so didn't need to draft a QB high but they are paying Brady a ton of money. Moss and Welker have fairly high contracts, Mayo is a top 10 pick,Wilfork is due some money,Adalius Thomas has a big contract, and everyone else is cheaper because the Pats were winning so they had later picks in the draft. Lions don't have the luxury of winning so they have to pick top 10 but we still are able to spend when we want to. For instance we took a big cap hit on the Redding trade and pay Peterson like 7 million, signed Foote and signed whoever else we could get to want to play here. They weren't huge contracts but we signed alot of people last offseason. Some have worked out, but some have not mainly the secondary of Buchanon,Henry and King who were all cheap lower tier free agents.

Plus its not like the Pats go out and spend a ton of money in free agency anyway. Thats the only benefit of picking more guys in Round 2 for cheaper, you have a ton of cap space which the Pats don't use except for the one year for Thomas,Moss and Welker. Those guys wanted to play for the Pats, the Pats had to use picks to get them. Should have been more picks for Moss IMO but the Raiders are idiots.
Thanks for all the contract stats on the dead money ... but I could not tell if you liked the idea of picking #1 as a way of becoming a champion down the road, like Iamcanadian??

I just picked the $ angle but there are so many reasons why that is a flawed way to build an NFL organization. Nothing personal, it's just that teams who win don't make a habit of picking top 10, or #1 overall.
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Old 11-04-2009, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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Thanks for all the contract stats on the dead money ... but I could not tell if you liked the idea of picking #1 as a way of becoming a champion down the road, like Iamcanadian??

I just picked the $ angle but there are so many reasons why that is a flawed way to build an NFL organization. Nothing personal, it's just that teams who win don't make a habit of picking top 10, or #1 overall.
I really don't mind a top 3 pick for the next year if it means we have a better chance at ensuring we get talent for the long run. I think this year it does with Suh,McCoy, Berry or Okung. 2011 draft unknown but of course I would rather win and be competive in the 2010 season. 2009 season I still want to win but with every loss I know we are closer to a stud player. If the Lions miss out on those players, we better hope Mayhew is a better judge of talent than Millen because it gets sketchy after those 3 players and Berry. Of course I want the Lions to win as many games as possible, but if 3 top 3 picks mean we turn things around into a consistent winner then so be it. We need talent badly and the other option to get talent of high priced free agents are actually more expensive and less long term than top 3 picks. The third option is Mayhew is a draft genius like Polian and Pioli and can find a guy any point in the draft. That is not very likely but not impossible. Of course it takes more than top 3 picks, we have to hit on other Rounds and then later drafts in the mid 1st/late 1st to stay consistently a winner. But again a top 3 pick means we are at the top of Round 2/3 which is really really good because you get a 1st round quality player for really really cheap which is where the Pats/Colts find their stud cheap players.

All that said I want the Lions to win some games. Don't care how they do it but if we're in top 3 I won't be crying about it on draft day. Colts it took Peyton #1 and Edge #4 before they turned things around, they had Marvin and Tarik Glenn who were mid round 1sts on the roster. Then they added pieces in the mid to late 1st. Freeney at #11,Wayne at 30,Clark at 24,Bob Sanders in Round 2. Not comparing but hopefully we have our Peyton(Stafford),Marvin(Calvin),Clark(Pettigrew although he will never be as good of a receiver as Clark),Sanders(Delmas). Just need a Freeney/Mathis(Det stud DT?/Avril), Wayne(not crucial right now for Detroit), Glenn/Diem(Okung?/Gosder) and an Edge/Addai(Kevin Smith doubtful?),Marlin Jackson/Hayden(Detroit need corners badly but must be done other than Round 1),Bethea(late round find safety). Lions LBs are in pretty good shape.
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Old 11-04-2009, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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I really don't like Kevin Smith. I'd have no problem at all if we took a RB with our Round 2 pick. I'm not saying it's the biggest need on our team or anything but if the BPA happened to be a Running Back when our Round 2 pick comes along, I'm not gonna explode and piss myself or anything like that.
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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I really don't like Kevin Smith. I'd have no problem at all if we took a RB with our Round 2 pick. I'm not saying it's the biggest need on our team or anything but if the BPA happened to be a Running Back when our Round 2 pick comes along, I'm not gonna explode and piss myself or anything like that.
Yeah ... I agree on a RB. If a Dwyer or Scott was called in rd 2 that would not surprise me. Smith really needs to step his game up for the rest of this season. His YPC is low and he seems to get tackled by the first guy often. Plus, there is no doubt that he his top end speed is lacking. A good back but the 2 of a 1 - 2 punch imo ;o)

Joique Bell out of Wayne State is an amazing college talent. If he is around in the late rounds he may be worth a flier. (Rd 5 or 6) Just a thought ...
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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That would totally suck. Taylor Mays? Greg Hardy?
Gotta have a QB or 2 in the mix of the top 5, right?

In fact, I just saw a respectable mock with Detroit drafting #8 and still landing Eric Berry!

It looked something like this ...
Rams - Clausen
Browns - Suh
Bucs - McCoy
Chiefs - Okung
Titans - Locker
Raiders - Mays
Redskins - Bradford
Detroit - Berry

FULL OF AWESOME ;o)
Its so respectable that they have the Bucs drafting another QB in the 1st round?
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:49 PM    (permalink
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Its so respectable that they have the Bucs drafting another QB in the 1st round?
Um ... McCoy as in Gerald, not Colt.
I'll forget you asked that question.
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:54 PM    (permalink
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Um ... McCoy as in Gerald, not Colt.
I'll forget you asked that question.
Duhh! lol opps. Yeah you just go and forget that!
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Old 11-04-2009, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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No prob ...
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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What players do you realistically see us throwing in trade talks? What kind of return do you think?

I think its definitely time to shop Ernie Sims. Start a bidding war with all the cover 2 teams. I know that Buffalo and Tampa are slightly weak at LB.


The Bucs just got an extra second rounder for Gaines Adams. I'd love to swing Ernie to them for that second.
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Old 11-04-2009, 11:32 PM    (permalink
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I think the highest Ernie could get for us is a 4th. I'm not sure if Stanton is a FA after this year or not, but if we still have him for another year, he could get us a 6th or 7th. Don't really know anyone else who teams could possibly want that we'd be willing to get rid of.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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Sims for a second? Really Scotty? He wouldn't get the team a 5th.
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Old 11-05-2009, 12:55 AM    (permalink
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Sims for a second? Really Scotty? He wouldn't get the team a 5th.
His value is that low? I guess I was being quite optimistic. :(
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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I would say a 4th for Ernie but that is just my opinion. With Levy's arrival he is worth shopping, although he had a hell of a 2nd half against St. Louis.
Really though, can we get a starter with a 4th rd pick? I suppose, yes ... but the odds are not in our favor. Face it guys, we don't have much talent to "shop" ... I can not think of another guy? Wow, that's sad. I'm sure there might be market for Fluellen, Avril, White, Henry B Johnson etc but just late round picks to get younger.
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Old 11-06-2009, 12:54 PM    (permalink
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ernie=undersized and constantly injured. somebody get bill polian and the colts on the phone. perfect fit for a 3rd rounder.
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