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Old 12-09-2011, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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For 58 million though? That's the part that's killing me. I think this is a good move only if we can grab Felton.

My feelings exactly. Doesn't help that I'm a big Billups fan as well.
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Old 12-10-2011, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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We did overpay him about 4 or 5 million per year. He is also does have a history of under performing after getting a big contract in Chicago. Hopefully he plays up to his deal cause as it has been said by millions on paper he fills a huge need.

I am worried though. Cause we have no PG and not the greatest depth behind Chandler if his toe ends up being a problem again.
Tyson Chandler is absolutely worth more than 9-10 million dollars a year. 9-10 million is a fair salary for someone like Emeka Okafor. Ty is worth at least 12....he was the 2nd most important player on a title winner for God's sake.

He underperformed for one year (the first) in the previous contract you mentioned. For the vast majority of that deal, his healthy years were very good and he capped it off with a great year in Dallas (not his best statistical output either). Now, injuries are absolutely a concern and the contract is a risk for that reason, but he has always been a double-double machine and defensive leader when healthy (just look at his numbers when he plays over 70 games.) You make it sound like he played poorly when healthy. That just hasn't been the case over the last 5 years.

When you take injuries out of the equation, I don't see how 14 million per doesn't make Chandler appropriately paid. Now, with the injuries, 12 is more appropriate, but centers are at a premium and he could have made even more elsewhere.

Honestly, I take Chandler over Nene and I don't think people would ***** over Nene getting 14 million. Nene has injury concerns as well, is an awful rebounder for a big man, and doesn't protect the rim very well at all. If there are 2 things I want from my center they are rebounding and protection of the rim, especially with Amare there to fill it up on the offensive end. A healthy Ty gives you that in spades.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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Tyson Chandler is absolutely worth more than 9-10 million dollars a year. 9-10 million is a fair salary for someone like Emeka Okafor. Ty is worth at least 12....he was the 2nd most important player on a title winner for God's sake.

He underperformed for one year (the first) in the previous contract you mentioned. For the vast majority of that deal, his healthy years were very good and he capped it off with a great year in Dallas (not his best statistical output either). Now, injuries are absolutely a concern and the contract is a risk for that reason, but he has always been a double-double machine and defensive leader when healthy (just look at his numbers when he plays over 70 games.) You make it sound like he played poorly when healthy. That just hasn't been the case over the last 5 years.

When you take injuries out of the equation, I don't see how 14 million per doesn't make Chandler appropriately paid. Now, with the injuries, 12 is more appropriate, but centers are at a premium and he could have made even more elsewhere.

Honestly, I take Chandler over Nene and I don't think people would ***** over Nene getting 14 million. Nene has injury concerns as well, is an awful rebounder for a big man, and doesn't protect the rim very well at all. If there are 2 things I want from my center they are rebounding and protection of the rim, especially with Amare there to fill it up on the offensive end. A healthy Ty gives you that in spades.
I just feel 14 million is a little too much. Felt like we overpaid just cause we got word that Chris Paul situation was not going to happen so we just throw all our money at Tyson.

Even if we take your premise of he is worth 12 million we still overpaid. We lost our PG and our backup center in the process of signing him due to his large contract. This is a team especially now with the shortened season that needs depth. Salary cap wise it cost us our use of the amnesty and the MLE.

His best years are when he has good Pg's and we don't have one. He was not the great in Charlotte and that was with Raymond Felton as his PG. I am not trying to make it sound like he was a scrub for 5 years but I dont feel you should just reward a guy with the massive contract based on him having a bounce back year.

He is not a double double machine that is a exaggeration. He did that once with Chris Paul. Also to the 2nd most important player in the finals part ya I agree he was. However you can make arguments for other players for that honor as well.

I am rooting for him to do well here but I have my concern's.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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"A little too much" isn't a strong argument in basketball. You have to pay good players with size a lot in this league. Once we realized CP3 was not possible, we went out and got arguably the most influential piece we could have in order to improve the team.

D'Antoni is already talking about making this a more defensive-minded team, and running the offense through Melo. If Chandler stays healthy, our frontcourt is going to DEVOUR the others in the East. It's not a bad strategy at all.

It's bittersweet because this signing ensures that we won't get DH12 or CP3 (unless we trade Amare), but I think you are undervaluing Chandler a bit. We are currently a top-4 team in the East (and if we just had Billups and Turiaf, one or both would've gotten injured and we'd be featuring Toney Douglas AND Jared Jeffries in starter's roles...)

Chandler was the MAIN ADDITION that took the Mavs from a playoff team to a legitimate title contender. 7-foot shot-blockers/elite rebounders are extremely valuable. He's also apparently a GREAT teammate and leader, which might help guys like Douglas and Shumpert from the getgo - we were pretty much a glued together macaroni project by the playoffs last year. Now we have some stable veteran leadership with BIG GAME experience leading us from training camp.

I wish it was CP3, but I like this move because it improves the team and having cap room for next summer would just allow us to sign a guy like Chandler, nothing better - because Melo/STAT deals are too big for a third max contract + worthwhile role players...

Here's to hoping Toney Douglas can step his game up just a little... (or maybe Baron Davis...) until Nash in 2012? Eh? Um. IDK.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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"A little too much" isn't a strong argument in basketball. You have to pay good players with size a lot in this league. Once we realized CP3 was not possible, we went out and got arguably the most influential piece we could have in order to improve the team.

D'Antoni is already talking about making this a more defensive-minded team, and running the offense through Melo. If Chandler stays healthy, our frontcourt is going to DEVOUR the others in the East. It's not a bad strategy at all.

It's bittersweet because this signing ensures that we won't get DH12 or CP3 (unless we trade Amare), but I think you are undervaluing Chandler a bit. We are currently a top-4 team in the East (and if we just had Billups and Turiaf, one or both would've gotten injured and we'd be featuring Toney Douglas AND Jared Jeffries in starter's roles...)

Chandler was the MAIN ADDITION that took the Mavs from a playoff team to a legitimate title contender. 7-foot shot-blockers/elite rebounders are extremely valuable. He's also apparently a GREAT teammate and leader, which might help guys like Douglas and Shumpert from the getgo - we were pretty much a glued together macaroni project by the playoffs last year. Now we have some stable veteran leadership with BIG GAME experience leading us from training camp.

I wish it was CP3, but I like this move because it improves the team.

Here's to hoping Toney Douglas can step his game up just a little... (or maybe Baron Davis...) until Nash in 2012? Eh? Um. IDK.
I was just stating my personal opinion on the contract. I know the centers usually get overpaid that isn't a issue with me.

I see that the team still has holes to fill and now has limited ways to fill them now in order to improve the team to make it a legitimate contender.

I am not a D'antoni hater. I actually do like him as a coach for the most part but he is always saying things like that about defense. They sound good on paper for us fans but they usually don't translate as well on the court.

Hopefully Coach Woodson helps that we will see against a Celtic team that added about like 3 forwards yesterday. You need a pg Melo is a underrated passer and all but you still need a pg to run the offense.

I am not undervaluing Chandler on the court at all. my concerns are more about things like can he perform up to the deal and can he stay healthy.

On the court I love the fact we got a a guy who plays D is a shot blocker and a guy i know can rebound. I know he can score in the post but I know we need a pg at some point for those patented Chandler alley oops.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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There's always a chance that it doesn't work out. And I AM a D'Antoni hater because I believe in defense. Still, I have to hope that this shift in philosophy does take place. It's possible, especially with the personnel we have and Woodson.

Staying healthy is ALWAYS the "if" with big contracts - I'm with you on that one.

I just don't mind "over"paying because what else could we have done with that money? The argument that paints a picture of a better alternative - that I'd want to discuss... I honestly just don't know if there is one...
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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There's always a chance that it doesn't work out. And I AM a D'Antoni hater because I believe in defense. Still, I have to hope that this shift in philosophy does take place. It's possible, especially with the personnel we have and Woodson.

Staying healthy is ALWAYS the "if" with big contracts - I'm with you on that one.

I just don't mind "over"paying because what else could we have done with that money? The argument that paints a picture of a better alternative - that I'd want to discuss... I honestly just don't know if there is one...
I certainty don't have a better alternative plan or options to present that are better then Chandler. I accept the fact that Chandler is our Center and am now more focused on what we can add with him. I just feel he got a little too much for my personal taste.

I believe in defense but I also believe in a offense. Hopefully with the two headed monster we can have both and if we do then I will do this dance.



Cause it has been years since the Knicks have had both.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:27 PM    (permalink
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BTW guys, if I understand this correctly, we have the MLE since this was a sign and trade.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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BTW guys, if I understand this correctly, we have the MLE since this was a sign and trade.
We only have the room exception. We don't have the MLE after amnestying Chauncey to go under the cap.
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Old 12-10-2011, 10:48 PM    (permalink
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We only have the room exception. We don't have the MLE after amnestying Chauncey to go under the cap.
This is true. Hollinger effed up in his article earlier today. He has since changed it haha.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:33 PM    (permalink
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I've seen rambling about us possibly adding Barea and Crawford. Barea would be an upgrade over Bibby, but I still wouldn't be enthused about giving him a multi-year deal to be our starting PG. You know what you get with Crawford, you're gonna get somebody who can score with little defense to go with it. I actually don't dislike this as much as I did earlier today. I think he could actually be a very solid asset coming off the bench as a sixth man, with Landry starting at the 2.
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Old 12-10-2011, 11:40 PM    (permalink
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Bibby sucks hopefully we add Barea or Baron Davis. Cause Bibby at best should only be the 3rd pg on your depth chart.

The Crawford story I hope to god does not end up happening unless he is stupid enough to take the vet minimum. I don't want to end up trading Douglas for Crawford and end up wasting our only exception this year on him
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:51 PM    (permalink
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Can someone please sign Crawford so we don't? Please?

Who's our backup Center btw? I wonder if Denver cuts Mozzy. Probably not.
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:54 PM    (permalink
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Can someone please sign Crawford so we don't? Please?

Who's our backup Center btw? I wonder if Denver cuts Mozzy. Probably not.
The guy turned down a 2 yr 10 million dollar offer and we can only offer 2.5.

Jerome Jordan(as soon as his buyout situation gets settled),Josh Harrelson, Jared Jeffries and Chris Hunter are all vying for the honor right now in training camp.
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Old 12-13-2011, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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I guess Jeffries is good enough in a backup role. Give him 15 to 20 minutes a night, I can live with that.

We really need to hope that Fields worked on his J this offseason. What do you guys think this year? I think we're good enough that we should make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Anything after that is gravy.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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How do you guys watch Knick games btw? I don't have Cablevision anymore, so I don't get MSG. Is there anywhere I can watch it online?

I'm thinking about getting an IPAD and using my brother's optimum online account to stream the games on the ipad, but im hoping for an alternative.
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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I am sure Firstrow will have some streams of the games.

http://www.firstrowsports.tv/sport/basketball.html
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Old 12-13-2011, 06:36 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I guess Jeffries is good enough in a backup role. Give him 15 to 20 minutes a night, I can live with that.

We really need to hope that Fields worked on his J this offseason. What do you guys think this year? I think we're good enough that we should make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Anything after that is gravy.
No no no, you don't understand. If Josh Harrellson doesn't make this team, I will start to break things. Being a huge UK fan and all, while he lacks any type of supreme talent, the guy hustles his balls off, provides some girth in the paint that Jeffries doesn't, and has a good feel fior the basket. It was awesome watching him out-duel Sullinger last year. I think he has the potential to be a good 2nd round scrapper, obviously setting him to the standards of Landry Fields would be ridiculous considering how much he overperformed his draft slot, but he's the kind of kid you want on your team.
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Old 12-18-2011, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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Iman Shumpert!!!
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BuckNaked View Post
No no no, you don't understand. If Josh Harrellson doesn't make this team, I will start to break things. Being a huge UK fan and all, while he lacks any type of supreme talent, the guy hustles his balls off, provides some girth in the paint that Jeffries doesn't, and has a good feel fior the basket. It was awesome watching him out-duel Sullinger last year. I think he has the potential to be a good 2nd round scrapper, obviously setting him to the standards of Landry Fields would be ridiculous considering how much he overperformed his draft slot, but he's the kind of kid you want on your team.

Yeah, I really like Harrellson. And it sounds like we are probably going to get Baron, which would be fantastic. I'm willing to bet his injury is more of a 2-4 week thing as opposed to 8-10 week as well.
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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great move, welcome B Diddy.

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Old 12-26-2011, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Well, I saw some progress on defense. Still have a lot of work to do. Our ball movement is horrible, we need a PG in the worst way.

I like Shumpert. Getting hurt sucks, we'll miss his versatility. But our PG situation is awful, we need a PG in the worst way.

Having Melo is huge bc we finally have a closer. We haven't had a closer in a long time.
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Old 12-26-2011, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Well, I saw some progress on defense. Still have a lot of work to do. Our ball movement is horrible, we need a PG in the worst way.

I like Shumpert. Getting hurt sucks, we'll miss his versatility. But our PG situation is awful, we need a PG in the worst way.

Having Melo is huge bc we finally have a closer. We haven't had a closer in a long time.
Yeah, I'm interested to see how the team pans out this year. If Baron can come back in shape and healthy and be our distributor we could be a contender. I like Douglas' defense and lightning scoring off the bench but as a starter I don't think he can cut it.

Although, one thing I do love about Douglas is he knows he's not a great passer so he keeps it simple and almost never turns the ball over. That's rare for a guy who is supposed to be a point guard and ball handler but isn't great at it.

I'm still not a Melo's biggest fan, but he certainly can score in bunches with the game on the line. For me, it's about consistency with him. He needs to play defense consistently and he needs to score more efficiently. That's my biggest knock on him. He's 6'8, athletic, and can score in a variety of ways. There is no reason he shouldn't be shooting 50% from the field every night.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Well, I saw some progress on defense. Still have a lot of work to do. Our ball movement is horrible, we need a PG in the worst way.

I like Shumpert. Getting hurt sucks, we'll miss his versatility. But our PG situation is awful, we need a PG in the worst way.

Having Melo is huge bc we finally have a closer. We haven't had a closer in a long time.

I really like Shumpert too, I liked his confidence and how athletic he is. I think we found a gem if he progresses like he should.

It does suck he got hurt though.
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Old 12-27-2011, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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For this year in particular, we really need to figure something out with the PG position. We're not going anywhere until we figure out our PG situation.
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