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View Poll Results: Who's the best WR?
DeSean Jackson, Eagles 67 72.04%
Miles Austin, Cowboys 15 16.13%
Steve Smith, Giants 6 6.45%
Santana Moss, Redskins 1 1.08%
Mario Manningham, Giants 3 3.23%
Other 1 1.08%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-04-2010, 05:51 PM    (permalink
OSUGiants17
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Jackson with Smith as a close second
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by herniateddisc View Post
Bowe, Nicks, Colston, Boldin, Wayne, Rice -- not the same speed. Not even sure, Jackson, Fitz, Marshall are either. Chad is shot. Calvin and Andre J ...... similar.

Again, DJax is not a #1. I think your list proves that. He is a small scat WR who is suited as a decoy and occasional big pass downfield.
Regardless... You slot those guys in Austin's spot on our team and they would come up with similar results. Some a little worse, some a little better.

Fact 1: I never mentioned Jackson as a #1 WR. I don't think he is.

Fact 2: I do think Austin is a #1 WR and a more complete WR.

Fact 3: Desean Jackson is harder to find. That's why I would choose him first in a draft. Does that make him better? My answer is no.

Fact 4: You never answered my question about naming at least 5 guys that can do what Desean can do.

So I guess that's weird. I think Austin is more valuable and better. But I think Jackson is more rare and having him adds a different dimension.

Talking myself through this as I type.

Though I have always remained:
X - Miles Austin
Y - Desean Jackson
Z - Steve Smith
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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If your counter is to put Austin's stats on the table, then you need to recognize that he is a recipient of those stats. He's a Wide out. He's a byproduct of those stats. Those stats can be attributed to play calling, QB play, OL play, heck.. the rest of the offense AND the defense too! Football is the ultimate team sport so if you're going to pin his numbers to prove how good he is, then that is not solid footing. He's a partial credit to those stats, but they are not completely his.
Dude, are you for real? You could say that about every single wide receiver in this league. There is just so many holes in your logic I don't know where to begin.

T.O., future HOFer and 3rd on all time receiving list, had 1355 in his best year in Dallas. Yet he has only 35 more yards with 4 more starts than Austin. Why is that?

Why hasn't Roy Williams or Patrick Crayton blossomed?

Furthermore, Austin came into the year as a 3rd receiver. Garrett didn't exactly spend all off season game planning and building an offense around Austin, when he was a third receiver until KC in week 5. Austin also had a record setting day against KC when he was just filling in for Roy, and presumably would go back to the bench. Seriously, how is he a product of Garrett's game plan?

Sorry, your argument is not only really weak, but it is also really sad. Austin was money all year, made big plays, made tough catches, and took big hits over the middle; he earned every yard of those stats. Yet you are trying to argue (rather weakly) that Austin really doesn't deserve that praise? Why are you bashing our players with such ridiculous arguments? Maybe because you are wrong and you would rather bash a Cowboys player to justify your support for an Eagles player.

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Old 01-04-2010, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Dude, are you for real? You could say that about every single wide receiver in this league. There is just so many holes in your logic I don't know where to begin.

T.O., future HOFer and 3rd on all time receiving list, had 1355 in his best year in Dallas. Yet he has only 35 more yards with 4 more starts than Austin. Why is that?

Why hasn't Roy Williams or Patrick Crayton blossomed?

Furthermore, Austin came into the year as a 3rd receiver. Garrett didn't exactly spend all off season game planning and building an offense around Austin, when he was a third receiver until the 7th week against Atlanta.

Sorry, your argument is not only really weak, but it is also really sad. Austin was money all year, made big plays, made tough catches, and took big hits over the middle; he earned every yard of those stats. Yet you are trying to argue (rather pathetically) that Austin really doesn't deserve that praise? Seriously, what kind of Cowboys fan are you?
the very rare kind that does not over rate every one of the Cowboys players and think that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Although...D has had some of those moments... :D
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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Regardless... You slot those guys in Austin's spot on our team and they would come up with similar results. Some a little worse, some a little better.
Austin was a second receiver in KC, yet had a record setting day. So how is he a product of Garrett's game plan?
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Dude, are you for real? You could say that about every single wide receiver in this league. There is just so many holes in your logic I don't know where to begin.

T.O., future HOFer and 3rd on all time receiving list, had 1355 in his best year in Dallas. Yet he has only 35 more yards with 4 more starts than Austin. Why is that?

Why hasn't Roy Williams or Patrick Crayton blossomed?

Furthermore, Austin came into the year as a 3rd receiver. Garrett didn't exactly spend all off season game planning and building an offense around Austin, when he was a third receiver until KC in week 5. Austin also had a record setting day against KC when he was just filling in for Roy, and presumably would go back to the bench. Seriously, how is a product of Garrett's game plan?

Sorry, your argument is not only really weak, but it is also really sad. Austin was money all year, made big plays, made tough catches, and took big hits over the middle; he earned every yard of those stats. Yet you are trying to argue (rather weakly) that Austin really doesn't deserve that praise? Why are you bashing our players with such ridiculous arguments? Maybe because you are wrong and you would rather bash a Cowboys player to justify your support for an Eagles player.
I know you could say that about any WR in the league. Which is entirely why basing your point on WR stats to claim how good he is is such a weak argument. Sorry to see you not realize that.

That same TO is doing what this year? Austin wouldn't have those stats if he were in Buffalo, no matter how great you think he is.

I never compared Austin to Roy or Crayton. Those are strawman arguments that you are arguing. Fight the battle in front of you. Don't make one up.

I'm not doubting or dogging Austin at all. He plays his role better than Desean would. ...and Desean plays his role better than Austin would. IMO, they are 2 different kind of WRs. Been saying that for a while now. One is an X, the other a Y. It's just a lot harder to find a player like Desean than it is to find a player like Austin.

The problem is that you people want a pissing contest to say this guy is better than that guy... when in fact, you're ignoring the reality of the situation, in that you're comparing apples to oranges.

A better argument would be to compare Alvin Harper to Desean Jackson. ...and TO to Austin.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I know you could say that about any WR in the league. Which is entirely why basing your point on WR stats to claim how good he is is such a weak argument. Sorry to see you not realize that.

That same TO is doing what this year? Austin wouldn't have those stats if he were in Buffalo, no matter how great you think he is.

I never compared Austin to Roy or Crayton. Those are strawman arguments that you are arguing. Fight the battle in front of you. Don't make one up.

I'm not doubting or dogging Austin at all. He plays his role better than Desean would. ...and Desean plays his role better than Austin would. IMO, they are 2 different kind of WRs. Been saying that for a while now. One is an X, the other a Y. It's just a lot harder to find a player like Desean than it is to find a player like Austin.

The problem is that you people want a pissing contest to say this guy is better than that guy... when in fact, you're ignoring the reality of the situation, in that you're comparing apples to oranges.

A better argument would be to compare Alvin Harper to Desean Jackson. ...and TO to Austin.
1. T.O. is over the hill. You could see that last year when he had just over 1,000 yards. And might I add 4 more starts than Austin.

2. Yeah but Roy was the number one receiver and did squat. If the system was so great where was his production. Or even Crayton's?

3. Austin's role? He is not a role player like Jackson. He does it all, which is exactly why he is more valuable. You can take away Jackson's game and he'll be quiet. You can't do that with Austin because there are so many facets to his game.

4. You didn't address the fact that Austin had a record setting day when he went into the game as a second receiver.

5. And Reid loves to throw the ball, even more so than Garrett. So I'm not really getting that whole system argument at all.

Call me a home if you like but Austin is a top 3 WR in the league. He has 103 yards per game he has started, which is the most in the NFL, and is 3rd in receiving yards when you account for all 16 games. Saying Jackson is more valuable than Austin is, frankly, wrong.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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Austin was a second receiver in KC, yet had a record setting day. So how is he a product of Garrett's game plan?
Really? You're basing your entire logic for Austin's stats on the season, behind 1 game? That's like trying to convince everyone how good an old banana tastes after only taking a small bite from the unbruised part. That car salesman tactics that don't work here. Maybe on other forums on the net, but not here.

Austin's stats are a shared success story of the entire team. He's 1 reason for it. There are 53 others and a coaching staff too. He's a receiver. He receives the ball. Somebody has to call the pass, somebody has to pass it, somebody has to block for the passer, somebody needs to run the ball to keep the defense honest, somebody needs to keep the offense on the field... Austin and his stats are the end result. Not discrediting him totally, like you may want to say I'm doing. Just saying he's gets partial credit, not full.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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Really? You're basing your entire logic for Austin's stats on the season, behind 1 game? That's like trying to convince everyone how good an old banana tastes after only taking a small bite from the unbruised part. That car salesman tactics that don't work here.
Yeah that and about 11 other games where Austin dominated. Point is his play isn't the result of a system. He was a second receiver and went gang busters when he wasn't the focal point of the offense.

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Austin's stats are a shared success story of the entire team. He's 1 reason for it. There are 53 others and a coaching staff too. He's a receiver. He receives the ball. Somebody has to call the pass, somebody has to pass it, somebody has to block for the passer, somebody needs to run the ball to keep the defense honest, somebody needs to keep the offense on the field... Austin and his stats are the end result. Not discrediting him totally, like you may want to say I'm doing. Just saying he's gets partial credit, not full.
If red headed genius could so easily create a 1300+ yard receiver, Crayton and Roy would have better stats. They don't.

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Maybe on other forums on the net, but not here.
LOL. Ok.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:49 PM    (permalink
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1. T.O. is over the hill. You could see that last year when he had just over 1,000 yards. And might I add 4 more starts than Austin.

2. Yeah but Roy was the number one receiver and did squat. If the system was so great where was his production. Or even Crayton's?

3. Austin's role? He is not a role player like Jackson. He does it all, which is exactly why he is more valuable. You can take away Jackson's game and he'll be quiet. You can't do that with Austin because there are so many facets to his game.

4. You didn't address the fact that Austin had a record setting day when he went into the game as a second receiver.

Call me a home if you like but Austin is a top 3 WR in the league. He has 103 yards per game he has started, which is the most in the NFL, and is 3rd in receiving yards when you account for all 16 games. Saying Jackson is more valuable than Austin is, frankly, wrong.
1. You're not getting it. I'm not comparing TO to Austin. I'm comparing TO in Dallas to TO in Buffalo. I'm comparing Austin in Dallas to a situation of Austin if he were in Buffalo. In both situations, the WRs receiving stats would be worse in Buffalo for the exact reasons that I've been pointing out.

2. More strawman arguments from you again. I didn't say Miles is 100% a product of the system. I never said it's a plug and play system that no matter who is in the #1 WR role, they will get the same stats.

I said Austin gets partial credit for his stats as a WR. The team gets partial credit and other part is him being the difference. Is that so hard to understand?

3. Austin plays his role well, but he would not play Jackson's role as well as Jackson plays his role.... and vice versa. Jackson would not play Austin's role well. Again.. apples to oranges.

But what is value? If value is in something that is more rare, then Jackson has more value. If value is in something that can do more things, then Austin is more value (if you're not counting KR abilities). If value is a combination of both, then how do you judge coming away with a definitive answer?

4. I answered your tunnel vision point.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:59 PM    (permalink
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Yeah that and about 11 other games where Austin dominated. Point is his play isn't the result of a system. He was a second receiver and went gang busters when he wasn't the focal point of the offense.


If red headed genius could so easily create a 1300+ yard receiver, Crayton and Roy would have better stats. They don't.



LOL. Ok.
More strawman. Sigh. Google the term if you don't understand. Can you learn how to discuss the entirety of the points being discussed, and not just pick parts of it? Otherwise, I'm done repeating myself.

I never said Austin's stats are solely the result of the system. I said it's the result of THE TEAM!

That said... the team... NOT just the red headed genius... created a 1300+ yard receiver out of an over the hill TO. I don't believe this year is the first year TO has been over the hill by any means.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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1. You're not getting it. I'm not comparing TO to Austin. I'm comparing TO in Dallas to TO in Buffalo. I'm comparing Austin in Dallas to a situation of Austin if he were in Buffalo. In both situations, the WRs receiving stats would be worse in Buffalo for the exact reasons that I've been pointing out.

2. More strawman arguments from you again. I didn't say Miles is 100% a product of the system. I never said it's a plug and play system that no matter who is in the #1 WR role, they will get the same stats.

I said Austin gets partial credit for his stats as a WR. The team gets partial credit and other part is him being the difference. Is that so hard to understand?

3. Austin plays his role well, but he would not play Jackson's role as well as Jackson plays his role.... and vice versa. Jackson would not play Austin's role well. Again.. apples to oranges.

But what is value? If value is in something that is more rare, then Jackson has more value. If value is in something that can do more things, then Austin is more value (if you're not counting KR abilities). If value is a combination of both, then how do you judge coming away with a definitive answer?

4. I answered your tunnel vision point.
1. Yes Austin's would be down, but it would still be significantly higher than Owens. Anyhow, you said you could just fill in any of these receivers and you would get similar production. Austin has given us more production per game in his 12 starts, than Owens did in his best year in Dallas. Thus Austin is a special player, and not so easily replaced.

2. Well what percentage of credit do you think he gets? And in what system does a second receiver get 250 yards and 170 yards (Austin was still considered the second WR until after the Atlanta game)?

3. And Austin is not a role player. Austin runs deep routes just like Jackson and much more, which is part of what I'm trying to say. Furthermore, in football GM's compare apples to oranges all the time when they decide who to draft. They have to decide if this linebacker is a better football player than say an offensive lineman. Or if the GM is trading players, an O-lineman for a linebacker, he has to compare their value. But that is not even case, we are comparing WRs, so you "apples to oranges" cop out is even less significant.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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The Desean Jackson hate is ridiculously hilarious.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:26 PM    (permalink
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The Desean Jackson hate is hilarious.
He is a very good player and I would love to have him on my team, but he is not better than Miles Austin.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Austin and Djax have completely different games, and come from two different styled offenses. Its hard to compare. you cannot belittle what Jackson has done all season, he seems head and shoulders above any reciever in the NFC East.

Austin has improved, but he isn't the three dimensional player Jackson is, although he is the more polished reciever.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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He is a very good player and I would love to have him on my team, but he is not better than Miles Austin.
that is just utter ignorance, dont talk out of your (butt)
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:34 PM    (permalink
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The Desean Jackson hate is ridiculously hilarious.
It is. I'm surprised this thread went past 2 pages to be honest with you.
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MilesAustin4MVP View Post
1. Yes Austin's would be down, but it would still be significantly higher than Owens. Anyhow, you said you could just fill in any of these receivers and you would get similar production. Austin has given us more production per game in his 12 starts, than Owens did in his best year in Dallas. Thus Austin is a special player, and not so easily replaced.

2. Well what percentage of credit do you think he gets? And in what system does a second receiver get 250 yards and 170 yards (Austin was still considered the second WR until after the Atlanta game)?

3. And Austin is not a role player. Austin runs deep routes just like Jackson and much more, which is part of what I'm trying to say. Furthermore, in football GM's compare apples to oranges all the time when they decide who to draft. They have to decide if this linebacker is a better football player than say an offensive lineman. Or if the GM is trading players, an O-lineman for a linebacker, he has to compare their value. But that is not even case, we are comparing WRs, so you "apples to oranges" cop out is even less significant.
I've never seen somebody use strawman as much as you. Wow. I'm through responding.

False statement #1. I did not list TO's name among the players that would replace what Austin has put up.

False statement #2. I never made mention of Austin being a #2. But I'm curious to see the breakdown of targets on each game starting from the KC game between him and RW. If you claim he's been a #2, then the targets should reflect that.

False statement #3. I never said Austin was a role player.

False statement #4. You think all WRs are used the same? ...and should be compared the same? hahahahaha.
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:34 PM    (permalink
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I've never seen somebody use strawman as much as you. Wow. I'm through responding.

False statement #1. I did not list TO's name among the players that would replace what Austin has put up.

False statement #2. I never made mention of Austin being a #2. But I'm curious to see the breakdown of targets on each game starting from the KC game between him and RW. If you claim he's been a #2, then the targets should reflect that.

False statement #3. I never said Austin was a role player.

False statement #4. You think all WRs are used the same? ...and should be compared the same? hahahahaha.
1. That is irrelevant because the 2007 version of T.O. is similar to the players you listed, and in 2007 you would have listed T.O. amongst those players. So comparing the 2007 version of T.O. to the 2009 version of Austin is perfectly valid. Especially since they played in the same system.

2. I know you never mentioned that. It seems you missed the point. Fact of the matter he was the #2 receiver in those two games. Yet he put up massive yards. Point is if his production was the result of the system, he wouldn't have put up those numbers as a #2 when he is not the focal point of the offense.

3. I know you never said that. I said that. And Desean Jackson is a role player.

4. Did I ever said WRs should be used the same? I said you can compare their value to the team. You said you can't because they are "apples to oranges." Austin is much more valuable than Jackson. Fact
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Old 01-04-2010, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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did I really just read Miles Austin a top 3 WR? in he division, right? RIGHT?
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Old 01-04-2010, 09:13 PM    (permalink
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I do have to give cowboys fans some props though, I remember before this season they were saying Austin could be a great WR if given a chance and developed properly and I just laughed. He's the one laughing now.
I'm not ready to anoint him a top 3 or 5 receiver yet, those guys earn that title over multiple seasons, but he is quickly becoming one of my most hated cowboys, which is a compliment to him haha.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:46 AM    (permalink
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Regardless... You slot those guys in Austin's spot on our team and they would come up with similar results. Some a little worse, some a little better.

Fact 1: I never mentioned Jackson as a #1 WR. I don't think he is.

Fact 2: I do think Austin is a #1 WR and a more complete WR.

Fact 3: Desean Jackson is harder to find. That's why I would choose him first in a draft. Does that make him better? My answer is no.

Fact 4: You never answered my question about naming at least 5 guys that can do what Desean can do.

So I guess that's weird. I think Austin is more valuable and better. But I think Jackson is more rare and having him adds a different dimension.

Talking myself through this as I type.

Though I have always remained:
X - Miles Austin
Y - Desean Jackson
Z - Steve Smith
I thought this thread is about BEST in NFC East. SO he is best. I am done then.

I really don't care to argue Jackson b/c I think he benefits from a lack of depth at WR on that team, a QB who throws a great deep ball, a OC who runs those routes 5-6 times per game (to say A LOT), and teams who have no idea what to do with their safeties.

Is he different? Yeah he is 170 lbs, 5.9 and plays in the NFL. Unique indeed.... and I love the kid for what he adds to an O.
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:48 AM    (permalink
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the very rare kind that does not over rate every one of the Cowboys players and think that they are the best thing since sliced bread. Although...D has had some of those moments... :D
Just some?
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Old 01-05-2010, 06:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BaLLiN72 View Post
that is just utter ignorance, dont talk out of your (butt)
What a joke.

To call someone ignorant who thinks Austin is better than Jackson is pretty insulting.

Difference of opinion .... but ignorant?

Jeez, so many guys who ignore RESULTS. Result is Austin has more yards, more catches, and more TDs with 4 less starts. ANd a key part of their wins too.

If New Orleans had played the GMen one more time, I am sure you would be calling Henderson the best ...... just cuz jackson toasted a LOUSEY GMEN Defense with losuey Safeties and OVERRATED CBs does not crown him 2009's GOAT. It just means your GMen DB sucked this year.

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Old 01-05-2010, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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What a joke.

To call someone ignorant who thinks Austin is better than Jackson is pretty insulting.

Difference of opinion .... but ignorant?

Jeez, so many guys who ignore RESULTS. Result is Austin has more yards, more catches, and more TDs with 4 less starts. ANd a key part of their wins too.

If New Orleans had played the GMen one more time, I am sure you would be calling Henderson the best ...... just cuz jackson toasted a LOUSEY GMEN Defense with losuey Safeties and OVERRATED CBs does not crown him 2009's GOAT. It just means your GMen DB sucked this year.
no because it's common knowledge that:
-Henderson sucks
-So did the Giants safties (after KP went down)
-Kevin Dockery, despite being our "speed" corner, can not cover a speed WR to save his life.
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