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Old 12-16-2009, 10:02 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by vikes_29 View Post
Come on people. This isn't madden. Calvin is worth a 1, 2, 3, picks this year, and that is all.
Jay Cutler fetched two 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick, and an above average starting quarterback. Cutler plays a much more important position, but Johnson is younger and a better overall player than Jay was at the time. Add into the fact that whatever team trade for Johnson won't have to give him an extension for a few more years and I don't see how you can say he's only worth a one, two, and three. You think the only difference in between Calvin Johnson and Roy Williams is a late 2nd/early 3rd value?
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:05 PM    (permalink
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You would be fools to even consider this. He is the definition of elite. He can make an offense go by himself. Not to mention you'd be leaving Stafford pretty lonely.
Ya he is really making the offense go this year. If you watch Lions games he drops passes. I have not been enamored with his play this year. Yes that is partly due to the rest of the offense, but he certainly cannot "make it go" by himself.

I don't to trade him, but I feel it is best for the organization to accumulate draft picks. If we could get 4 or 5 starters out of the deal whether they come in the form of picks or young talent I would go for it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by aNYtitan View Post
I don't see how he isn't as untouchable a player as there is. Young, dynamic and right behind Johnson and Fitzgerald as the best WR in the league. There is really no reason to even consider trading him because the value can never be equal. IMO it would be like the Titans deciding to trade Chris Johnson. The value can't ever be equal to what he is worth.

For people that are even thinking possibly about doing this, what are you on? That could be the Lions' mentality, cause you need great players to succeed, and they don't just come around like that.
Big difference between Chris Johnson and Calvin Johnson, considering the teams situations. The Titans are already competitive, the Lions are not. The Titans could be a Super Bowl team with three or four more pieces. The Lions could be 7-9 with three or four more pieces. By the time the Lions are competitive, Calvin's contract will be expiring and he'll be ready to move on for more money and a better team.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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We got Randy Moss for a 4th rd pick... sooooo... We'll give you a 3rd 'cause he's younger :D
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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Ya he is really making the offense go this year. If you watch Lions games he drops passes. I have not been enamored with his play this year. Yes that is partly due to the rest of the offense, but he certainly cannot "make it go" by himself.

I don't to trade him, but I feel it is best for the organization to accumulate draft picks. If we could get 4 or 5 starters out of the deal whether they come in the form of picks or young talent I would go for it.
It's like any wide receiver. No matter how great they are, you don't build a team around a receiver. If the Lions looked like they could make it to the playoffs in the next one or two years, then I'd say he's untouchable. However, like you said, if he can get us four or five potential starters than I say go for it.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:16 PM    (permalink
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Big difference between Chris Johnson and Calvin Johnson, considering the teams situations. The Titans are already competitive, the Lions are not. The Titans could be a Super Bowl team with three or four more pieces. The Lions could be 7-9 with three or four more pieces. By the time the Lions are competitive, Calvin's contract will be expiring and he'll be ready to move on for more money and a better team.
True, but how many more years does he still have on his contract? It ain't exactly ending right around this corner, and I'm absolutely positive that if it were down to the final year and no extension were signed, they would still be able to bring in a huge haul for him if thats what you are concerned about.
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Old 12-16-2009, 10:28 PM    (permalink
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I think people do not understand how many acquisitions the Lions are away from fielding a team that could potentially be a wild-card. The Lions will not win a division anytime soon. In 2 or 3 years I hope to not be mathematically eliminated from the playoffs by week 13 or 14. Those are realistic hopes for this team in two years.

You can literally count on one hand how many players on this team could start on a playoff caliber team.

I think we could make an interesting trade with Baltimore or Cincinnati. I think they are probably feeling very close to being an elite team, and both could use a deep threat to play to their QBs strengths.
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Old 12-16-2009, 11:35 PM    (permalink
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Calvin has all the talent in the world.. But he has his fair share of drops, and he gets injured too damn much. Dare I say, he's a little overrated so far. A lot of that has to do with the Lions, though. The QB situation is just now getting fixed, we still have a poor OL and we haven't had a reliable running game in a decade. By the time we build a competent team, he'll be ready for his big extension.. We're wasting his best years.

No problem with not trading him, but I can understand why they would cash in.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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I am a die hard Lions fan ... love me some CJ too ... but come on, he is arguably not even the most talented Johnson receiver in the league! ;o) Andre in Houston would have something to say about that, Larry Fitzgerald as well.

Maybe CJ is due to bust out but he has had only 1 solid year statistically, last year and that was on an 0-16 team where plenty of those yds/TD's came in garbage minutes when behind 24-3 playing catch up. Without looking it up name me Andre Johnson #2 & #3 WR's in Houston? They get him the ball. He's productive. I'm just saying ...

Most talented is way different then the best WR in the league. Also keep in mind AJ took awhile to blow up.


Everyone loves AJ now but it took him 6 years to reach a season above 1300 yards, you realize Calvin did that in year 2 with crap at QB and a terrible O-line? You pretty much just discredited that fact and gave most of the credit to playing behind and garbage time, so basically any #1 WR on a terrible team should be able to produce those numbers.



AJ also has never gotten double digit TD's before in his career, so that's 7 years in counting. Calvin did that in year 2 also. So while it's easy to say how much better AJ is then Calvin let's really put that into perspective.


You almost have to keep him if you don't get a great deal because you'd be giving a playoff team an elite WR and it would be scary to think what Calvin could do in a better situation. I'm with you guys on improving the team, but getting picks is no rocket science for turning around the team either, Dallas made almost all those picks count in the Herschel Walker trade to reap benefits, same for SD in the Eli deal, blow those picks and the trade blows up in your face too.



And on the subject of drops, Andre is STILL dropping easy passes to this day, that's always been an enigma of his. Even at his elite status he drops way too many passes, the same can't be said for Fitz but this happens weekly for AJ. It's scary to imagine how good Calvin could be in year 6, and yea he'd probably want an extension by the time your good but if you don't have that many good players I don't see how it be that hard to resign him anyway. It's not like you guys have even a DECENT #2 WR to take over, you'd have to rely on the new WR you took to pan out and thus taking away a primary weapon for Stafford and his development which is huge.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:38 AM    (permalink
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I agree LL, thats why I would probably want a young promising player included in the deal.

I've been trying to think of trade proposals like that but all I could come up was with Arizona for Dockett. :/
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Nalej View Post
We got Randy Moss for a 4th rd pick... sooooo... We'll give you a 3rd 'cause he's younger :D

**** that. That trade pisses me off everytime I think about it.

1) Al Davis **** you, you ******* moron
2) Randy Moss **** you for being lazy and forcing your way out of Oakland, man up and try to make the team better you ******* piece of ****. No I want to play for a winning team after collecting a huge paycheck from a losing team and then not playing hard. You didn't deserve to go to New England. **** that, make Oakland a proven team by dominating instead of being lazy. Everything wrong with NFL players work ethic is shown in this trade. You signed the contract in Oakland, play hard for Oakland. Just glad Moss hasn't won a SB.
3) Bellicheck/Pioloi can't be mad at them, sure I'll take Randy Moss for a 4th trying to hold in his laughter. Thank goodness for that actually happening because if not he would be in Green Bay and Jennings,Driver and Moss would be unstoppable. League should be able to veto that crap though but I guess its a fine line for that stuff and don't want the league messing in trades. Can't make the league idiot proof.
4) **** Millen for using 4 1st on WRs.
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Old 12-17-2009, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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**** that. That trade pisses me off everytime I think about it.

1) Al Davis **** you, you ******* moron
2) Randy Moss **** you for being lazy and forcing your way out of Oakland, man up and try to make the team better you ******* piece of ****. No I want to play for a winning team after collecting a huge paycheck from a losing team and then not playing hard. You didn't deserve to go to New England. **** that, make Oakland a proven team by dominating instead of being lazy. Everything wrong with NFL players work ethic is shown in this trade. You signed the contract in Oakland, play hard for Oakland. Just glad Moss hasn't won a SB.
3) Bellicheck/Pioloi can't be mad at them, sure I'll take Randy Moss for a 4th trying to hold in his laughter. Thank goodness for that actually happening because if not he would be in Green Bay and Jennings,Driver and Moss would be unstoppable. League should be able to veto that crap though but I guess its a fine line for that stuff and don't want the league messing in trades. Can't make the league idiot proof.
4) **** Millen for using 4 1st on WRs.
agreed except move millen to 1 instead of 4 and add the ernie sims pick to the discussion.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:01 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, but if a team offered us a package of four or five picks you'd have to take it. If you can draft a receiver who is half as good as Calvin and fill three or four other needs, why is that foolish? No one is suggesting that we just give him away, just that you listen if someone is going to try and overwhelm you.

The Lions aren't going to be competing for the NFC North next year and probably not the season after that. By the time the Lions are a competitive team, Calvin will be in the final year of his contract and will be looking for not only big money, but a chance at a Super Bowl ring.
I understand your logic. I feel differently. IMO Calvin is a once a decade player, the type that if you get him on your team you pay him. If you don't, you should be mad at your ownership for being cheap. Go ahead, trade him for draft picks. I'm a Packer fan, I want him out of the division. Watch him turn into the best receiver in the NFL while half of the prospects you get fail to crack the starting lineup.

Besides, I know the attitude came from being a Lions fan for so many years, but you should be thinking "who do we have to get to help Calvin bring that Lombardi trophy to Detroit", not "who else will he sign with to try and get one". I know your team is bad right now, but you've got some good pieces in place. Turning around a team doesn't take as long as it used to. Atlanta did it in what, one year? And they had to replace their franchise quarterback.
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Old 12-17-2009, 11:18 AM    (permalink
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to keep stafford at or above 55% completions we need a reliable underneath receiver. we need probably 2 starting guards. we could use a better left tackle. also on offense we now need another running back. not to mention kicker since hanson is old but that's more of a free agent thing. i also won't mention backup qb even though daunte is probably done with us and stanton isn't trusted even in garbage time of a blowout.

1. receiver
2. guard
3. guard
4. tackle
5. rb

on defense we need another DT to rotate/pair with sammie lee hill and grady. we could use 2 new DEs. i think we could use another linebacker to replace ernie since levy would probably replace foote and even if follett stepped up we'd still need depth. we need another safety to pair with delmas. schwartz treats each safety position as left or right and not free or strong so we'd need another versatile safety. we also need at minimum 1 more starting corner and probably another with the eye on eventually starting.

1. DT
2. DE
3. DE
4. LB
5. S
6. CB


we are not winning the super bowl anytime soon.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Unless it is some Hershal Walker or Roy Williams style just rediculous deal I mean a starting point would be a full draft. Durring that draft Tampa offered a full draft for Calvin. But I think losing Calvin would be devistating for Staff's development. Also I want AJ Green next draft.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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yes, the key to rebuilding a team is trading away one of the few elite talents we DO have so that we can take another shot at the roulette table. Hey who knows, maybe with that 1st round draft pick Calvin Johnson will surely net us in a trade, we could draft one of the most talented guys in the draft class, you know, like we did a few years ago when we DRAFTED CALVIN JOHNSON.

Good god, maybe the Lions will stop losing for once if for a change we didn't trade away every ounce of talent still in Detroit. What's next? Trade stafford for even more picks? We'll get a first round pick for Matthew for sure!
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:32 PM    (permalink
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yes, the key to rebuilding a team is trading away one of the few elite talents we DO have so that we can take another shot at the roulette table. Hey who knows, maybe with that 1st round draft pick Calvin Johnson will surely net us in a trade, we could draft one of the most talented guys in the draft class, you know, like we did a few years ago when we DRAFTED CALVIN JOHNSON.

Good god, maybe the Lions will stop losing for once if for a change we didn't trade away every ounce of talent still in Detroit. What's next? Trade stafford for even more picks? We'll get a first round pick for Matthew for sure!
Ok, well that is taking the logic of the trade to the extreme.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:34 PM    (permalink
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Ok, well that is taking the logic of the trade to the extreme.
what logic? you're telling me there's logic involved here? Where the hell is it then?
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:41 PM    (permalink
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Trading Calvin for 3-5 starters on a team in desperate need of talent.

I understand why you would not want a trade like this, under the notion the Lions would botch the picks anyways. However if you were told you could get 3-5 starters for Calvin Johnson you would not consider it?

I'm talking like two 1st a 2nd and possibly even a player.

I just look at the Lions being so far away from contention that this would be one of the best avenues to rebuild. I just don't see how a WR will be more valuable over the next 3 years then 4 starters gotten by way of the trade.
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Old 12-17-2009, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Trading Calvin for 3-5 starters on a team in desperate need of talent.

I understand why you would not want a trade like this, under the notion the Lions would botch the picks anyways. However if you were told you could get 3-5 starters for Calvin Johnson you would not consider it?

I'm talking like two 1st a 2nd and possibly even a player.

I just look at the Lions being so far away from contention that this would be one of the best avenues to rebuild. I just don't see how a WR will be more valuable over the next 3 years then 4 starters gotten by way of the trade.
Because we have plenty of high picks to work with regardless. The problem with the Lions is that for years we have gotten exactly jack out of every pick made after round 2 and very little from everything before it. We are absolutely terrible at drafting. And until Mayhew shows me more than a single decent draft, I'm not ready to just trade away one the best and certainly one of the most talented receivers in this league.

Essentially, I'm not willing to gamble on draft picks, especially not if getting those extra picks means trading away one of the TWO elite talents we have on this team. Furthermore, direct your attention towards San Francisco: they picked a talented QB (regardless of how you felt about Alex Smith coming out, he was plenty talented) and subsequently gave him no talent in the receiving corps and look where that got them.

Yeah we can get some amazing picks for Calvin, but have you stopped to think WHY we could get such good picks for him? He's really, really very good at catching the football and making plays. Look at the Cardinals, they had the same thing going on with Larry Fitz, hell Leinart didn't even work out for them, that didn't mean they were trading Larry (and don't give me the "that's different"-talk, the Cards were hysterically bad just a few years ago).

The problem I have with the 'logic' of your argument is that it makes no sense at all. Trading a supremely talented player so we can draft a middle 1st round rookie (and no way we're getting a top 10 pick for CJ, those teams need the pick) a second-rounder and a few late-rounders? In no way can you disregard Matthew Stafford in this discussion: if he bombs, the Lions can gear up for a few more years of losing. We want Stafford to succeed, and trading away one of the few talented players around him isn't going to help. Let's just draft smart with the picks we have. Once Mayhew shows he has Ozzie-like skill at drafting, I'll shut up about trading for extra picks.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:00 PM    (permalink
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yes, the key to rebuilding a team is trading away one of the few elite talents we DO have so that we can take another shot at the roulette table. Hey who knows, maybe with that 1st round draft pick Calvin Johnson will surely net us in a trade, we could draft one of the most talented guys in the draft class, you know, like we did a few years ago when we DRAFTED CALVIN JOHNSON.

Good god, maybe the Lions will stop losing for once if for a change we didn't trade away every ounce of talent still in Detroit. What's next? Trade stafford for even more picks? We'll get a first round pick for Matthew for sure!
Alright, I see you're point. We can go 4-12 next year, 6-10 in 2011, 8-8 in 2012 and than Calvin can sign a monster free agent contract with another team who is much closer to contending for a Super Bowl. Then we still don't have him.

Like I said earlier, I don't want to give him away but if some team offers you a great deal you have to listen. He is an elite talent, but he plays one of the least important positions on the field. I'd rather have two excellent defensive players and two or three other starters than one elite wide receiver. It's all about making the overall team better. If someone offers a king's ransom and you feel that you can turn one elite player into multiple starters you have to take the deal. If someone offers you a deal that can't make the team better, you hang up the phone.

The first thing we need to do before continuing this discussion is to stop overrating him. It's not just Lions fans either. Everyone thinks he's the messiah and the greatest human being to walk this earth since Jesus Christ. This has been going on since before he was drafted. He is an elite talent and a physical freak, no doubt. However, he is not yet an elite receiver. He still has flaws that people need to recognize and not ignore just because he is Calvin Johnson. Fact is the guy's hands are average at best (he's like Roy in that he makes the spectacular catches but drops the easy ones), he doesn't play as fast as he times, and he's starting to become and injury concern. Let's treat him as what he is, not what he might become. He is a top ten receiver who has the potential to get even better. He is not Jerry Rice in his prime.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Is there anything that supports this actually happening outside of this site like the rumor mill or something or is this just team forum talk?
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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Is there anything that supports this actually happening outside of this site like the rumor mill or something or is this just team forum talk?
Columnist Drew Sharp wrote an article suggesting the Lions look into it.
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Old 12-17-2009, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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Alright, I see you're point. We can go 4-12 next year, 6-10 in 2011, 8-8 in 2012 and than Calvin can sign a monster free agent contract with another team who is much closer to contending for a Super Bowl. Then we still don't have him.
What the hell kind of sense does that make? By that logic the lions can just quit playing altogether because all the talent always leaves. Never mind the fact Andre Johnson has remained loyal to the Texans even though they sucked horribly. Why should calvin be any different?

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Like I said earlier, I don't want to give him away but if some team offers you a great deal you have to listen. He is an elite talent, but he plays one of the least important positions on the field. I'd rather have two excellent defensive players and two or three other starters than one elite wide receiver.
What I really don't understand is how this argument works. Two excellent defenders? Two or three starters? These are DRAFT PICKS we're talking about. Not established players, draft picks. And given the Lions' track record (I don't care if it's Mayhew, Lions will be Lions until proven otherwise and one draft class isn't proof) I can't believe you can really make a case that a number of draft picks equal a number of starters or stars. Or even players we can keep on roster. Seriously, I don't know where this notion that the Lions can suddenly draft comes from.

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It's all about making the overall team better. If someone offers a king's ransom and you feel that you can turn one elite player into multiple starters you have to take the deal. If someone offers you a deal that can't make the team better, you hang up the phone.
Again, not only is there no guarantee whatsoever that the players we get with the draft picks we would get for calvin would become starters, and with the lions track record in the 'getting starters out of draft picks'-departement I'd say the odds of getting 'multiple starters' out of those picks is small. For crying out loud they've had trouble getting multiple starters out of entire draft classes.

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The first thing we need to do before continuing this discussion is to stop overrating him. It's not just Lions fans either. Everyone thinks he's the messiah and the greatest human being to walk this earth since Jesus Christ. This has been going on since before he was drafted. He is an elite talent and a physical freak, no doubt. However, he is not yet an elite receiver. He still has flaws that people need to recognize and not ignore just because he is Calvin Johnson. Fact is the guy's hands are average at best (he's like Roy in that he makes the spectacular catches but drops the easy ones), he doesn't play as fast as he times, and he's starting to become and injury concern.
Elite talent is just what I consider him. But he's also netting a 1,000 yard season on a piss-poor team two years in a row and is generally considered the best thing the lions have going for them. You can't deny that.

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Let's treat him as what he is, not what he might become. He is a top ten receiver who has the potential to get even better. He is not Jerry Rice in his prime.
I cannot believe you're calling me unrealistic. Have you seen your own argument regarding the return value on Lions draft picks?
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Old 12-17-2009, 04:56 PM    (permalink
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we were able to land 5 starters out of last years' draft due to millen no longer pulling the strings. there is no guarantee of that happening again, but having an addition 2 first round picks plus another mid rounder would go a long way towards adding overall talent to the team and bridging the gap between us and the other teams in our division. one man can not compete with the packers/vikings/bears. we need talent on our lines and on defense specifically. if by trading calvin we gain the ability to fill another 5 starters or atleast solidify our chances of doing so with the next couple of drafts then f calvin in his butt. we're the lions, not the calvin johnsons.

if trading away our biggest star can solidify the team so we can win more games, then we have to look into it. especially since we've only won 2 games in the past 36-40? if winning only two games didn't scare our fans away, then trading calvin won't either. so we won't lose ticket sales. we need to win by having better overall talent, not relying on a savior. it hasn't worked the past couple of years.
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