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Old 12-17-2009, 04:13 PM    (permalink
Addict
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Originally Posted by Prowler View Post
we were able to land 5 starters out of last years' draft due to millen no longer pulling the strings. there is no guarantee of that happening again, but having an addition 2 first round picks plus another mid rounder would go a long way towards adding overall talent to the team and bridging the gap between us and the other teams in our division. one man can not compete with the packers/vikings/bears. we need talent on our lines and on defense specifically. if by trading calvin we gain the ability to fill another 5 starters or atleast solidify our chances of doing so with the next couple of drafts then f calvin in his butt. we're the lions, not the calvin johnsons.

if trading away our biggest star can solidify the team so we can win more games, then we have to look into it. especially since we've only won 2 games in the past 36-40? if winning only two games didn't scare our fans away, then trading calvin won't either. so we won't lose ticket sales. we need to win by having better overall talent, not relying on a savior. it hasn't worked the past couple of years.
Fine, Mayhew got five starters out of the last draft. That's great. Hooray for Martin Mayhew, honestly. But he was drafting players into a team that went 0-16. Let's be honest here, even I could draft five starters for the lions of last season.

But if he can do a fine job with 5 picks, there is absolutely no point in giving him more draft picks to play with. He did fine with five, then do fine with five. Because I'll tell you what happens: we trade calvin and either we end up kicking ourselves because we get absolutely nothing back for it, or we end up kicking ourselves because Matthew Stafford's growth stunts because he doesn't have a reliable #1 guy to throw to.

For god's sakes we have ONE thing working on this team ONE thing and we're actually discussing trading it away. That's not how you build a team, that's how you run it into the ground.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:03 PM    (permalink
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Addict you have a valid point, but I think you are overrating what a #1 WR brings to a team, especially one in the shape we are in.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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Addict you have a valid point, but I think you are overrating what a #1 WR brings to a team, especially one in the shape we are in.
I'm not saying Calvin wins us games, all I'm saying is that you guys are overrating the Lions' FO's ability to draft (yes they have shown improvement after hitting rock bottom, hooray) and all act as if there's some kind of guaranteed return on draft picks. There isn't.

I think Calvin is very important for Stafford. He needs a reliable target, Calvin can provide that. He's not perfect, but he's a standout NFL receiver. I look at P. Manning coming to the 3-13 Colts in his first year, but he did have Marvin Harrison to build with. Not saying we can do what the Colts have done, but it's been done before. Good teams don't become better teams by trading away their stars. Regardless of position.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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How about this as an alternative to the CJ trade talk: The Lions are likely going to be picking at the 3 spot this year, plus or minus a spot. For all intents and purposes, this is where we took CJ. There will likely be teams wanting to trade up, especially if Clausen is available with our pick.

So we keep a known commodity (CJ) and trade down from the #3 spot and pick up additional picks if another team (Washington) is prepared to overpay for the rights to choose their franchise QB.

Personally, I'd much prefer this approach.
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Old 12-17-2009, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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How about this as an alternative to the CJ trade talk: The Lions are likely going to be picking at the 3 spot this year, plus or minus a spot. For all intents and purposes, this is where we took CJ. There will likely be teams wanting to trade up, especially if Clausen is available with our pick.

So we keep a known commodity (CJ) and trade down from the #3 spot and pick up additional picks if another team (Washington) is prepared to overpay for the rights to choose their franchise QB.

Personally, I'd much prefer this approach.
this makes a lot more sense!
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Old 12-17-2009, 07:17 PM    (permalink
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no way. a boat is a boat but the box could be anything. it could even be a boat. you know how much we've been needing one of those!

whoa i just read a thing on espn insider with the headline of calvin johnson on the block. they just brought up drew sharp and terry foster of the free press and detroit news. it says nothing about front office intentions but maybe could be used in a forum mock situation.

sharp's article
http://www.freep.com/article/2009121...Calvin-Johnson

foster's article
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/t...hp?blogid=1873
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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no way. a boat is a boat but the box could be anything. it could even be a boat. you know how much we've been needing one of those!

whoa i just read a thing on espn insider with the headline of calvin johnson on the block. they just brought up drew sharp and terry foster of the free press and detroit news. it says nothing about front office intentions but maybe could be used in a forum mock situation.

sharp's article
http://www.freep.com/article/2009121...Calvin-Johnson

foster's article
http://apps.detnews.com/apps/blogs/t...hp?blogid=1873
Sounds like espn insider just wrote something based on the opinions of two journalists in the Detroit area. It's not a reflection of the Lions' FO's thoughts per se.

Again, what has more value: CJ or the #3 pick if Clausen is available there. It changes a lot of the teams who would be potential trading partners. As an example, if Seattle offered their two first round picks and maybe a 3rd for the chance to pick their future franchise QB, then we would have something in the neighbourhood of the #8, #24, #35, #40 and two third round picks. Imo, that would go just as far as trading CJ if not further, because we would end up keeping a stud receiver AND addressing a lot of needs.

STL beating Hou at home this week would go a looong way in helping our cause to that end.
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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Could this be another Herschel Walker dilemma? The Cowboys were ******* terrible back then (like the Lions now) 'til they traded away their best player for a gazillion picks. Safe to say it was the best thing that ever happened to the franchise. DO IT DETROIT!
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Old 12-18-2009, 08:32 AM    (permalink
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http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf...completel.html

Quote:
"To me, it's completely insane,'' Lions offensive coordinator Scott Linehan said. "Calvin Johnson is one of the best receivers in football and he's had to struggle through some things this year from a health standpoint, but once you've got one of those, you don't want to lose him. That's one man's opinion. I would be pretty depressed.


"When you find those elite players ... I had a really good personnel guy tell me he'd take one guy like Calvin Johnson over 10 draft picks because you're trying to find one of those every couple of years.''
Say what you want about Scott Linehan but he was a head coach in this league and currently an offensive coordinator and I take his opinion over Drew Sharp or others. I'm sure anyone that actually works for the Lions or in the NFL would say its INSANE!
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:13 AM    (permalink
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Not to evesdrop on this conversation. But the herschel walker trade worked out really well. But, the most recent memory of one team that traded away their best player. Jared Allen was traded for a 1st, 3rd and a sixth?. Anyways, we currently have one decent player out of that trade, the sixth rounder(Robinson) was cut and Dajuan Morgan definately have lived up to the hype. I think it would be crazy to trade away one of the best WR's in the league.
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Old 12-18-2009, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Hello McFly Hello

Calvin is not going anywhere. At least if Linehan is the OC

http://www.mlive.com/lions/index.ssf...completel.html

It just creates another hole. Do you know what it would take to replace Calvin. A 1st round pick WR(which is hit or miss) or a big time FA WR(which why would they come here) and hitting on a 2nd round pick WR(Vincent Jackson,De Sean Jackson,Royal). Plus most WRs not all, but most need a few years to develop. If you want to screw over Stafford, trade Calvin and gamble on some draft picks.

We would have the worst WR corps in the league if we got rid of Calvin.
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Old 12-18-2009, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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well linehan does have to say that to appease calvin. if we lose the last 3 games then we will have lost 37 out of our last 40 regular season games. 3-37. i'd take 3 starters vs 1 superstar right now.

if we trade down we'd only swap first rounders and pick up a 2nd and a 4th rounder. a 2nd and 4th rounder vs 2 1st rounders and a mid round pick(hypothetically) isn't good enough, especially since we'd most likely lose the chance at okung, mccoy, and berry. if they feel like offering their first next year too and us getting a kings ransom then sure.
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Old 12-18-2009, 03:43 PM    (permalink
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I dont want to see Calvin traded, but IF he was and thats a really strong if. Then I would want to see at least 2 SOLID, YOUNG starters plus draft picks of say and 1st, 3rd, and 2nd the following year in return. He's that game changing. If we had a receiver that was at least reliable playing opposite the offense would look completely differently. The only time you trade away one of the best players at their position is if you from the AFC West. Ala Randy Moss, or Jared Allen.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:00 PM    (permalink
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The Megatron trade talk is is picking up, I've seen three or four different stories talking how he may not be with the team next season.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Like I said before.. I wouldn't want to trade him but I understand why they would.
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Old 12-18-2009, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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well linehan does have to say that to appease calvin. if we lose the last 3 games then we will have lost 37 out of our last 40 regular season games. 3-37. i'd take 3 starters vs 1 superstar right now.

if we trade down we'd only swap first rounders and pick up a 2nd and a 4th rounder. a 2nd and 4th rounder vs 2 1st rounders and a mid round pick(hypothetically) isn't good enough, especially since we'd most likely lose the chance at okung, mccoy, and berry. if they feel like offering their first next year too and us getting a kings ransom then sure.
Prowler, I respect your opinions on here, but I respectfully disagree with the notion that 3 starters are better than one superstar. As an example, which would you rather have at this point: Patrick Willis or Peterson, Foote and Levy? I'll take Willis. To be fair, we should define the term "starter". Are we talking about dudes who could start for the Lions right now, or dudes who can start for an average to above-average team. There's a significant difference.

Even then, we have to consider residual consequences of getting rid of CJ. We invested a #1 overall pick in Matthew Stafford. Getting rid of CJ would, in all likelyhood, stunt his growth as a QB. Having CJ to throw to gives Stafford a higher level of security in throwing deep balls, jump balls, etc, because he knows that CJ can make those plays where average WR's can't necessarily. Getting rid of that security could potentially result in Stafford losing some of his confidence in making the passes we drafted him for, resulting in a heck of a lot of checkdowns...we didn't draft him to do that.

As for Linehan's comments, I'm willing to bet that they're genuine. I don't know that there's an OC in the league who wouldn't drool at the chance to have CJ in their offense.
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Old 12-18-2009, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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I don't think we should trade Calvin unless the offer is exceptional (would have to be ATLEAST a 1st and 2nd this year and another 1st next year). Larry Fitzgerald has shown how valuable a dominant receiver can be. I think the Lions should follow Arizona's team model. We have a gun-slinger at QB, We have our Larry Fitz in CJ. We need a competent number 2 receiver via free agency. Bryant Johnson is garbage. We have our future TE in Bpetts. Defense just needs to be built up now. If we can't get Suh, Berry should be the pick. McCoy is a reach in the top 10 IMO.
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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http://www.freep.com/article/2009121...ons-say-no-way

Lions brass says no way to a megatron deal. In theory it made sense, let's just hope they can hit on 4 or 5 draft picks again! I guess this is a test of faith .... Mayhew/Schwartz get it done fellas!
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Old 12-19-2009, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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Well of course they're gonna say they don't want to trade Calvin. I have a hard time believing anything any executive says. You have to keep the player happy. I'm not saying that I think they want to.. but them making any kind of comment right now does nothing for me.

Just like the comments on Jeff Backus. Of course they're gonna say he's playing well. Does anyone really expect the OL Coach to say Jeff Backus is bad and that they're gonna release him ASAP? What good does that do?
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:23 PM    (permalink
SINCE1978
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If I were to guess ... keeping CJ happy would consist of A) winning games & B) getting him the ball more than 4 times a game!!
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Old 12-19-2009, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SINCE1978 View Post
If I were to guess ... keeping CJ happy would consist of A) winning games & B) getting him the ball more than 4 times a game!!
Ya I agree. I've noticed that sometimes the CB will play off of Calvin a little because of his speed. Why not just toss him the ball and give him some room to run? CB's can't tackle.. plus, Calvin is a big fella.. Seems like it'd be an easy 5 yards at the least.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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Hate the idea of trading Calvin. For one, stop saying 'we replace him with 5 starters'. No, you get 5 rookies (scouted by the Lions brass, mind you). Completely untested and to a large degree unknown. You hope they turn into starters. You hope someone becomes half the player Calvin is.

Then what message does this send to Stafford? You draft a guy to build the franchise around, don't help him out along the o-line, then trade away his only, i mean only, weapon. Ouch.

You know what would be a good idea to do in 2 years P-L? Pay Calvin Johnson. If your plan goes as you were saying, improving 2-3 wins each year, it would seem to mean that Stafford is progressing. You dont think Calvin would have any interest in resigning for a continuously improving team possessing a good young QB with whom he has chemistry?

If things actually do get worse next year, or not any better at all. Then talk about unloading him, clearly things arent working. His value won't be any lesser then, assuming no major injuries.
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Old 12-19-2009, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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The message to Stafford is a good point. Especially now with Smith & Pettigrew ailing (both likely PUP members for training camp) so the previously anemic run game is now non existent. Maurice Morris ... really, come on? I would hope this leads to a healthy dose of Aaron Brown. At least get a grade of where the rookie is at? (Even in a bad way)
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:14 PM    (permalink
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....we could get a cj spiller plus a mid round guard(asamoah) this year plus a first rounder next year for calvin.

just beating a dead horse
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Old 12-19-2009, 09:20 PM    (permalink
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Nnamdi + 1st + Jamarcus Russell for Calvin : /
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