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Old 02-08-2010, 05:25 PM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Default We Must Be Patient About The Rebuilding Process

I know that I am starting a new topic here, but yes, it is true, we must be patient with our organization and the Glazers must give this process 3 years.

Im going to give you a couple of teams for example that have had to go through losing seasons and missing the playoffs in order to build the team(s) they have now.

New Orleans Saints:
- This was a franchise that had gone through many losing seasons, but look at this team now and it all started with the 2004 draft. They build that team through the draft with guys like DE Will Smith and Devery henderson(2004), Jamaal Brown(2005), 2006 they got Marques Colston, Reggie Bush, Jahari Evans, Roman Harper. And yes, they did get that franchise QB with the signing of Drew Brees, 2007 brough them 2 more key players to the 2009 super bowl team in Robert Maechem and Usama young and picked up Piere Thomas as a UDFA. Yes they made 1 big free agent pick up in dealing for Vilma in 07 and in 2008, they got 3 starters in Porter, Ellis and Carl nicks and Pressely is good in their rotation. Their 09 class is still to be judged, but they were able to get Shockey for a 2nd round pick and got a good corner in Malcom Jenkins.

My point is, it took them a couple solid drafts (especially the 2006 draft) to get them where they are today. Basically, they only made the playoffs 2 times in the last 6 years, but they built this team right now very well through the draft that they will be a consistant playoff contender for the next 5-7 years.


Arizona Cardinals went through similar process as well. They draft very well over the past 6 years, but it took them a while for their players to actually develop. Look at the talent they drafted from 2003, 2004, 2005. It took alot of that talent 3-4 years to develop into the team they are today and while the 06 and 07 classes are still to be determined (except breason and latuii who are key starters), they overall did a nice job and were patient. the 2008 class brough them talent and if Leinart can step in and do an above average job, i think this team is going to contend for the NFC west every year.



What my point is, we may not be a playoff team next year and may not see this team perform to a playoff level til 2011-2012 season. My point is we do not have to make a splash in Free Agency. What the Bucs need to do is look at and evaluate their roster. Look at the strengths on both offense and Defense and Special teams and then look at areas they can improve on.

On offense, I'll list them:


Strengths:
- Franchise Qb in Josh Freeman( has a lot of talent, but can use help and did a good job for the situation he was in.
- If sears is heathy, have a good interior o-line in Sears, Faine and Joseph.
- Solid LT in Donald Penn
- Pro Bowl TE in Winslow
- Sammie Stroughter showed he can make some plays and mgiht have been the steal of the draft.

Can be addressed:
- RB: Caddy showed he can be a back to carry 15 times a game, but if we're going to be a running team, we might need a compliment. Could look in the draft for 1 or maybe in free agency.

- WR: this is our biggest need on Offense and we need to come away from this draft ( or trade) with 1 starter and another WR to contribute.

- RT: Trueblood is a good tackle, but he commits dumb penalties and he seems like he's only a good run blocker. If their is an upgrade available, we could seek 1, but it wouldn't bother me if he is retained.


DEFENSE:
Strengths:
- Young Linebacking core: I loved the play from Geno Hayes. He may not be derrick brooks out their, but he didn't disapoint. I think he was our best line backer this year. Quincy black struggled under bates scheme, but he had a nice 2nd half of the year and seemed to improve. Wouldn't bother me if he's still our SLB. Ruud finished in the top 5 in tackles again, but what didn't impress me about him is he made a majority of them 5-10 yards down the field and missed some tackles that lead to the running back breaking long runs (ex. Jonathon stewart and Thomas jones, both had runs where ruud put a hit on them, but didnt tackle them and broke long td runs). He seemed to be more comfortable when bates was fired, and it could be that he didn't have good play from the d-line. If someone ,say Philly offers us a 1st round pick for him, id' do it and take Weatherspoon (can play MLB in our scheme) in a heartbeat.

Aqib Talib and Tanard Jackson- These 2 guys are going to be a nice cb/safety duo for years to come, but the bucs don't have much behind them. Jackson in 12 games had 5 int's and 2 td's. He was snubbed from the pro bowl and i don't care what anyone says. Talib had a nice year after getting off to a bad start. He shadowed every opposing number 1 WR and guys like Steve Smith, Roddy White greg Jennings, Marques Colston did absolutely nothing when he was against them. Roddy white started showing up in that 1 falcons game, when Talib went out, so that says something. He got snubbed by the pro bowl becaue Mike Jenkins played for the Cowboys. 5 int's this year, very good.

Need to be addressed:
-D-line: Overall, we need 3 new starters on the d-line, 1 will be Roy Miller at NT. I think we cut Ryan Sims, but keep hovan because of his leadership skills in the locker room and he has 1 year left on his deal. We need a RE and UT, and both will be addressed in the draft. Kyle Moore and Wilkerson can be decent starters at the LE, but I think we need a DT, like Gerald McCoy or Ndmakung Suh, or trade down and get Brian Price or Jared Odrick. White played good, but he is only a situational pass rusher. We need a starter there on the right side.

Strong Safety: Sabby was awful. He takes bad angles, can't tackle, and gives up too many plays. He is too inconsistant and this needs an upgrade. Thankfully, this draft is deep at the safey position and we can get a starter like Darrell Stucky or my favorite SS Larry Assante in rounds 3 or 4 and can instantly replace Sabby next year.

CB: Ronde Barber will probably be back next year, but I will be more comfortable with him at the nickle. We need a young player or trade for a quality starter(if any are available). I think the 3rd round is potentially where we can find our #2 corner, (Dominique Franks, Devin McCourtney, Donovan Warren, Brandon Ghee or Corey Spievey ). I do want to see the development from EJ Biggers this offseason. I think he could be a reliable dime/Nickle back in the future as he has 4.3/4/40 speed and is 6-1 180 poiunds and is physical.

Special Teams: We led the league in Kick off returns yd. and coverage. Connor Barth could be retained as he did a nice job for us. Need a new punter, other than that, don't mess with a good thing. Nice job Bassacia.



- Overall, 10 picks in this draft we can get 4-5 starters and some depth.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:31 PM    (permalink
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It's no secret that the good teams are the ones who draft successfully. That's the main difference between teams like the Patriots/Colts/Saints and teams like the Redskins.

Heck, Gruden and Allen drove this team into the dirt by squandering draft picks on crappy players and trying to plug the holes with over-the-hill veterans (Charlie Garner, Tim Brown, etc).

If the Bucs want to return to the glory days they need to understand that they're not going to fix every position right off the bat. The best way to address the needs of the team is to analyze the talent available at each position and choose 2-3 of those positions to focus on in this draft based on the amount of talent available. It's unrealistic to expect them to fill every hole in April, but they can call the draft a success if they find 3 or so quality starters at positions of need. If they can do that, the team will head into the next offseason with fewer needs and the same process can be applied again to fix more positions, thus gradual returning the team to prominence.
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Old 02-08-2010, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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Legacy:

Couldnt have said it better and glad u are on board with what i am saying. The reason that I wrote this thread was because I am sick of reading comments on sites like espn.com and tampa tribune from fans commenting on articles completely bashing the bucs' front office for rebuilding and firing gruden. Yes, starting from scratch may be a risk, but it could also be a high reward. Gruden never wanted to get younger. He made lousy draft picks and dumb decisions. Yes, in 2007, we passed on the trade that could have gotten us Calvin Johnson and kept the picks and selected Adams(R.I.P.), Sears and Piscatelli. Right now, trading those picks doesn't look to bad too me, though sears showed he can be a quality LG. Not only that, but we did also pass on Sidney Rice in Rd. 2 and I believe we took Maurice Stovall in round 3 that year.

2008, Dexter Jackson was a huge miss and even though we needed WR help, we never got it in the draft. We also needed a complimentary back to Caddy (after just going down with the ACL injury) and decided to pass on Ray Rice (hmm, wonder how hes doing now compared to dexter? HAH!)

The 2009 draft I believe tampa got some quality players. They got a potential franchise QB, something they havent had since Doug Williams in Josh Freeman, who reminds me of a young Steve McNair with the escapability of Roethlisburger. Roy Miller is a solid pick in 3rd round and should have played more this year. Perfect nose tackle in our tampa 2.

Kyle Moore could be that LE that gets us 6 sacks a year and helps in the run and come in and rush inside on 3rd downs.

I liked Xavier Fulton. He is good swing guy that could develop into a solid starting LT or RT(if penn doesn't get signed long -term). Lot of scouts liked this pick.

I was raving about the Stroughter pick and it turned out to be one heck of a choice. Had 1st-2nd round talent , but that off year in 2007 for personal issues dropped his stock.

Biggers, I think could be solid for us, and i like his potential and has the frame to be a starting cb, but may only be a dime/nickle for us in the future. Could push E.B. for snaps on passing downs.
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Old 02-08-2010, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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I think Raheem has about 7 or 8 games honestly, If we start off 1-7 or 2-6 I can easily see him get canned... I think they want to build through the draft, Dominick has said it enough, but I can see them trying to trade for an established player with all the picks we have also...

If you think about giving up a 3rd and 5th for Boldin and resigning AB that would be a good combo, if they could stay healthy of course... And then take a DT, DE with the first 2 picks and BPA with the second 2nd rounder, would be a good start imo to rebuilding the team but at the same time telling your players (and fans!) that you want to win and our at least trying to make some moves to do that...
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Old 02-08-2010, 11:22 PM    (permalink
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Kenny G:

AB is gone. He was bothered by knee injuries the whole year and what really disturbed me about it was that he was recommended to get arthroscopic knee surgery in March and never did it until August, so that was a problem. He wasn't worth the 9.2 million he was paid and he still thinks he is, despite that down season. And again, after watching this year, I don't think he is a #1 WR. I think he'd make a great compliment if they can get a another option. I think Dominik will offer him a contract like a 4 or 5 year deal worth 5-6 million per, which is about the right price range for him because he did not prove to be paid like a top 10 WR. If he declines, well, he will probably be in washington since Daniel Snyder loves overpaying for everyone.

I would like to deal for anquan boldin, but I think we should look into the draft. I like Demarryious Thomas in the 2nd round and I think we can get a Mike Williams in the 5th round. That could instantly upgrade our WR core along with K2 and Stroughter. Boldin would only be a quick fix. He will be 30 during the 2010 season, so i dont think the bucs organization, who wants to build through the draft, will pay him a long term deal when they need to lock up key players like Tanard Jackson, Davin Joseph, and possibly Ruud and Penn.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:18 AM    (permalink
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To win the SuperBowl you need game changers, players who can dominate. You don't win with just very good players. If your in a position to draft a dominate player in a position that you don't already have a great player you take him. Solid players at positions are much easier to find.

In Free-Agency we need to bring in bodies at WR, D-Line and Corner. Im not talking top tier guys, just players that aren't terrible. We won't be able to address all our needs, some will be misses and even if they all hit some won't contribute at high levels during rookie seasons. Being terrible at a couple position causes real problems. Other teams easily aim to exploit it, forcing you to give extra help. Leading to weakness in other areas as well.

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Old 02-09-2010, 12:07 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucs_Rule View Post
In Free-Agency we need to bring in bodies at WR, D-Line and Corner. Im not talking top tier guys, just players that aren't terrible. We won't be able to address all our needs, some will be misses and even if they all hit some won't contribute at high levels during rookie seasons. Being terrible at a couple position causes real problems. Other teams easily aim to exploit it, forcing you to give extra help. Leading to weakness in other areas as well.
You can forget free agency this offseason. The uncapped year means that the majority of the free agents are restricted, which means we'd likely have to give up draft picks to obtain them.

Of the unrestricted free agents, the only player I can think of off the top of my head who I'd like to see here is Aaron Kampman.
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Old 02-09-2010, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bucfan12 View Post
I would like to deal for anquan boldin, but I think we should look into the draft. I like Demarryious Thomas in the 2nd round and I think we can get a Mike Williams in the 5th round. That could instantly upgrade our WR core along with K2 and Stroughter. Boldin would only be a quick fix. He will be 30 during the 2010 season, so i dont think the bucs organization, who wants to build through the draft, will pay him a long term deal when they need to lock up key players like Tanard Jackson, Davin Joseph, and possibly Ruud and Penn.
Demaryius Thomas stinks. He was horrible in the Senior Bowl and the practices leading up to it. He's fast, but he can't run routes or catch a pass to save his life. He's a project and I seriously doubt he'll amount to anything in the NFL.

As for Mike Williams, he's a boob. He couldn't keep himself out of trouble in college and I doubt he'll be able to do the same in the NFL. We have enough current and former trouble-makers on this team; we don't need more.
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Old 02-09-2010, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Legacy wrote:

Quote:
Demaryius Thomas stinks. He was horrible in the Senior Bowl and the practices leading up to it. He's fast, but he can't run routes or catch a pass to save his life. He's a project and I seriously doubt he'll amount to anything in the NFL.
Bud, do you even pay attention to anything about the nfl scouting of the 2010 prospects? Demaryious Thomas was a Junior that declared early, so he wasn't able to participate in the Senior Bowl. (Sorry, I had to laugh at this statement as to I have no clue what Demaryious Thomas you were watching).

Demaryious Thomas would be a great pick for us in the 2nd round. He is one of 5, maybe 6 WR in this draft that has the talent to develop into a true #1 threat. He is 6'3 230 lbs and is very physical and can get seperation right off the line of scrimmage. He has reliable hands and can get behind the secondary. He accounted for 70% of the Georgia Tech recieving yards, which is down right impressive and average over 20 yds a catch.

The only questions surrounding him is his route running and speed. Although i read on footballsfuture.com boards, Bay Bay (thomas) was clocked between 4.45-4.5 range in his workouts preparing for the combine.

It is very unlikely he will be taken in the 1st round, as I think only 2, maybe 3 WR's get picked ahead of him, but I think he is either the 4th or 5th best WR in this draft, with the potential to top this list or be a close 2nd 3 years from now. Reminds me alot of Brandon Marshall (talent wise of course).
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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What I mean was 2, maybe 3 Wr's will be taken in this year's first round.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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Hmm... Well, obviously I'm mistaken and I have him confused with another prospect I did see play in the Senior Bowl. I'll get back to you when I figure out which prospect that is.

EDIT: It was Danario Alexander I was thinking of.
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Old 02-09-2010, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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/goes to look for "Bay Bay" highlights on Youtube.
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Old 02-09-2010, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nDhGrYAx5g

Check out the play at 3:22. Wow, did he deliver a stiff arm then takes it to the house.
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Old 02-10-2010, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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I love him.

/no ho mo
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:31 AM    (permalink
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Rebuilding process hinges on the progress of Freeman, and rebuilding the Dline... It's not going to happen overnight but with a weaker schedule this year I think anything less then 8-8 is a dissappointment. Most will think that is overly optimistic but I don't....
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Old 02-15-2010, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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8-8 would be a fantastic result and a clear indicator that Josh Freeman is our franchise QB. I for one hope your optimism comes true.

At the moment I'd guess 5-11, but after the draft I'm happy to reassess the situation.
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Old 02-15-2010, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Speaking of Freeman, I just realized this the other day. A couple days after a terrific performance against the Falcons where Freeman tossed 250 yds 2 tds no ints and completed 68% of his passes, Antonio Bryant comes out pissed because he wasn't the main target of the offense.


Now before AB, Freeman did an excellent job spreading the ball around and hitting mutiple WR's, with K2 and Stroughter his favorite and loved throwing to Stovall(height, 6'5). AB comes in and messes with the rookie QB's head and it seemed that is when Freeman took a slight downfall.

Could be Freeman's fault for taking it into consideration, but honestly, you can't have a guy like that on the team(AB). He's got to remember he isnt the only WR on the field and it seems like he only cares about his stats and money than he is more about winning.

Personally, I think AB leaving will be the best thing for Josh Freeman's development.
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Old 02-19-2010, 12:36 PM    (permalink
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Actually according to the NFC South last team finishes first the next year. It is possible, we are better than Atlanta two years ago and they went 11-5 and we have an easier schedule than them. New Orleans will be tough, but I remember when Carolina won the division seven years ago against our SB winning team and no one saw that happening and they went to the SB and NO is capable of going 7-9 or 8-8.
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Old 02-19-2010, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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In 2007/08 Atlanta finished last. In 2008/09 Carolina won the division. The streak broke.
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Old 02-19-2010, 03:09 PM    (permalink
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In 2007/08 Atlanta finished last. In 2008/09 Carolina won the division. The streak broke.
But they still made the playoffs and totally turned it around. That streak is still active. 8/8 for last place teams making the playoffs the next year. That is probably what RM will have to do to keep his job.
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Old 02-19-2010, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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But they still made the playoffs and totally turned it around. That streak is still active. 8/8 for last place teams making the playoffs the next year. That is probably what RM will have to do to keep his job.
I seriously doubt that.

The Falcons aren't a good example of what we can realistically expect the Bucs to achieve in the coming season. The Bucs are rebuilding, whereas the Falcons were merely retooling. They only required an infusion of talent at a few key positions, such as QB and RB, while the Bucs require an infusion of talent almost across the board.
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Old 02-19-2010, 11:56 PM    (permalink
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But they still made the playoffs and totally turned it around. That streak is still active. 8/8 for last place teams making the playoffs the next year. That is probably what RM will have to do to keep his job.
Nice to see the quick flip-flop from division winner to playoff entrant.
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Old 02-21-2010, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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OP was tl;dr but I disagree about the "slow rebuilding process". Teams usually have a quick turnaround from good-bad and bad-good. Our schedule next year is loleasy and we have a decent foundation. I'm not gonna predict 10 wins or anything but I wouldn't concede defeat either. The NFL is unpredictable and we could surprise next year...all it really takes is a good season from Freeman to net us 4+ extra wins.

Also the Falcons were in much worse shape coming off their bad season than we are now. They succeeded because of some smart offseason moves and good coaching.
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Old 02-21-2010, 11:50 PM    (permalink
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etk,

Yes, some teams make quicker turnarounds than others, but other teams take long rebuilding processes. Remember, we are the youngest team in the nfl right now, but after listening to Michael Lombardi, he even says that this team is heading in the right direction, just need to rebuild that defense and add a WR or 2. Rah is an excellent d-cordinator, so I don't think we need to add pro bowlers to that position right away. We have a nice young LB core and 2 excellent DB's in Jackson and Talib. Miller and moore are going to start on the D-line at NT and LE. Greg White seemed to hold his own, so I don't think RDE is the biggest need.

But, also, look at what San Fransisco went through? for the last 5-6 years, they've been rebuilding and it seems like they finally built a very good team from the draft and some free agent pick ups here and their. They are young and talented and have some years under their belts and Its their time to take over their division.

For us, with a solid draft and Freeman able to go into the offseason getting ALL OF THE STARTERS REPS in every practice (unlike last year), I think he will drastically improve, along with the team. Remember, this team was absolutely terrible and once Freeman came in, he was 3-6, but we were competitve in 7 of those games, and should have won at Mia and at ATL, so could have easily been 5-4 (defense blew it in those two games). If we win 7+ games, I say we are on the right path and I see us a legitimate contender in 2011 and beyond.
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Old 02-22-2010, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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Our team was competitive late last year. If we bring that same mentality on the field next year with more talent and experience and a softer schedule, we shouldn't lose more than 10 games.

I think we're years away from becoming a legitimate threat or top team, but we can be competitive right away if we make the right moves and stay healthy.

What will our record be next year? How long will it take to get "back"? Those are questions that aren't worth fretting over right now. We just have to wait and see for the results to unfold. Once we have a better idea of the team's direction we can start to speculate about those things (and get really angry when we lose).
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