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Old 04-02-2010, 04:39 PM    (permalink
Morton
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Again, if Sheldon Brown defies all odds and plays on a high level well into his 30s (doesn't happen that often for CBs who rely on their speed more than any other position) without injury, then yes, the Browns definitely fleeced the Eagles.

But if Sheldon plays 1-2 more years and struggles at times with faster receivers, gets beat deep, (as he did in 2009 for the Eagles) and then eventually gets cut in 2011, I'd say it was a good move by the Eagles to get SOME value for him while they still could.

Again, the value of this trade all depends on what exactly Sheldon has left in his 31-year-old tank. We won't know until the 2010 season is over, really.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone said they expect us to get Charles Woodson or Darrelle Revis or anything. We get a pro bowl cornerback who has at least a couple good years left, and could be a nickelback or starting safety for us after that perhaps....and we also got a guy that our Mangini loved coming out of college and gets to utilize him in a system that Gocong is much better suited to play in - all for a 4th and 5th round pick and a project linebacker who was buried on the depth chart. We have 3 3rd-round picks and 3 5th-round picks after that trade still. We gave up very very little for something that is pretty darn good at worst. Last year we had to put safety Mike Adams at cornerback after Brandon McDonald's poor poor play. We had no starting quality guys at DB behind Elam and Wright, and Elam is just average.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, but even if Brown did wear down late last season he was still one of the best 5 or 6 cornerbacks when he was playing well last season. There's no doubt that the Browns got the better end of this deal.

It makes you wonder if Philly has plans to bring in another cornerback and didn't want to deal with Brown throwing a shitfit over it, but I somehow doubt that the said corner will be Asomugha.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone said they expect us to get Charles Woodson or Darrelle Revis or anything. We get a pro bowl cornerback who has at least a couple good years left, and could be a nickelback or starting safety for us after that perhaps....and we also got a guy that our Mangini loved coming out of college and gets to utilize him in a system that Gocong is much better suited to play in - all for a 4th and 5th round pick and a project linebacker who was buried on the depth chart. We have 3 3rd-round picks and 3 5th-round picks after that trade still. We gave up very very little for something that is pretty darn good at worst. Last year we had to put safety Mike Adams at cornerback after Brandon McDonald's poor poor play. We had no starting quality guys at DB behind Elam and Wright, and Elam is just average.
"at least a couple of good years left" is very optimistic. There is a good chance that Sheldon's play falls dramatically next year. He went from elite in 2008 to above average with some bad moments in 2009, to be honest. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he's even worse in 2010.

Again, he'd have to really defy the odds to be a solid starter for more than the next 1-2 years.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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Alex Hall isn't better than Chris Gocong. That's not saying much still. Hall got passed up by Marcus Benard late last year and was behind Roth, Wimbley, Benard at OLB, all this after David Bowens moved from OLB to ILB. Hall probably wouldn't have made the final cuts this year.
Gocong was beaten out by Moses Fokou a 7th round rookie and likely wasn't making it out of training camp either. We just traded scrubs, the deal is essentially a 4&5 for Brown.

Gocong and Hall are toss ins, Heckert like Gocong and Savage (who is now an assistant for the Eagles) likes Hall.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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he had injury issues last year and has been a fantastic player the past few years. You don't need as much speed and quickness to play safety as you do corner - which are two things you lose a bit as you get older - and Brown's game translates well to safety ala Aaron Glenn, Rod Woodson, Ty Law, etc. at the end of their careers. Very low risk trade for the Browns with the potential of getting great results.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Gocong was beaten out by Moses Fokou a 7th round rookie and likely wasn't making it out of training camp either. We just traded scrubs, the deal is essentially a 4&5 for Brown.

Gocong and Hall are toss ins, Heckert like Gocong and Savage (who is now an assistant for the Eagles) likes Hall.
yeah, that is essentially it. Mangini and Heckert wanted Gocong a lot to play in their 3-4 where his lack of pass coverage skills won't really be a big problem like they are in a four man-fronted defense. Gocong still has reasonable upside though and I think he has more trade value than Hall.
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Old 04-02-2010, 04:58 PM    (permalink
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Gocong is a marginal starter who may or may not contribute in the Browns 3-4, but he's definitely not getting the job done in Philly after 3-4 years.
Gocong was a good player, but just misused his whole career. Jim Johnson knew how to make up for his deficiencies in coverage, but McDermott had no idea what to do with him. Much like Chris Clemons, who was also traded earlier this offseason. His stats definitely dont tell you the whole story.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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I've done some reading up on Alex Hall and everything says he has upside, Daniel Jeremiah (former Browns scout) said he is really raw but has "excellent athletic ability" You guys (Browns fans) watched him for 2 years, can he cover? What is he good at? Everything I'm reading just talks about his potential and athletic ability. He seemed like he had a good rookie season, 3 sacks is alright.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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He's a 6'5", long and lanky pass rusher who showed promise early in his rookie season especially in training camp (had 3 sacks in like his first 5 career games or so) but disappaered after that and never shows up in games. Rob Ryan said he liked the potential of the kid last year, but he again failed to do anything at all during the season and his playing time went to undrafted rookie Marcus Benard down the stretch when the defense was playing well. redbills came asking what I thought his trade value was a few weeks ago and I told him he was worth a late round pick at best since he wasn't likely to survive training camp this year. I guess he still has upside though if he can ever turn that athletic ability into pass rushing production. Not high chance of that happening though I guess.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:17 PM    (permalink
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Yes, but they're only as good as your pass rush allows them to be. Oh, ****. I guess the Browns are still ****** then.
Oh I see what you did there.

You got rocked in the trade, screw off.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:21 PM    (permalink
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Yes, but they're only as good as your pass rush allows them to be. Oh, ****. I guess the Browns are still ****** then.
you know the Browns had 40 sacks last year....Eagles had 44.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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Oh I see what you did there.

You got rocked in the trade, screw off.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:27 PM    (permalink
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He's a 6'5", long and lanky pass rusher who showed promise early in his rookie season especially in training camp (had 3 sacks in like his first 5 career games or so) but disappaered after that and never shows up in games. Rob Ryan said he liked the potential of the kid last year, but he again failed to do anything at all during the season and his playing time went to undrafted rookie Marcus Benard down the stretch when the defense was playing well. redbills came asking what I thought his trade value was a few weeks ago and I told him he was worth a late round pick at best since he wasn't likely to survive training camp this year. I guess he still has upside though if he can ever turn that athletic ability into pass rushing production. Not high chance of that happening though I guess.
Can he cover? He is apparently being brought in to compete with Fokou for the starting SLB job, being able to cover is fairly important, more important than our SLB getting sacks, if he can cover then that makes him an upgrade over Gocong.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:35 PM    (permalink
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Well he's a 6'5"/250 lb. converted DE so pass coverage isn't gonna be as natural for him. However he is extraordinarily athletic and he bends exceptionally well for a guy with that kind of frame. He wasn't asked to cover as much in Cleveland as he will be in Philadelphia, at least not in the same way, so that remains to be seen.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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Are you serious he was a DE before ahhahaha, wow trade one DE/LB hybrid for another.

Gocong, might be better suited for the 3-4, but his lack of push rush moves and technique only lead to him being a back up.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:55 PM    (permalink
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Can he cover? He is apparently being brought in to compete with Fokou for the starting SLB job, being able to cover is fairly important, more important than our SLB getting sacks, if he can cover then that makes him an upgrade over Gocong.
Real similar to Kam Wimbley imo. Better in space however. He's got good fluidity in the open field and I often wondered if he'd be a better 40 front jumbo OLB. He made one notable play in preseason where he intercepted with his hands and ran it in for a score, and looked fluid doing it. As a pass rusher he simply can't get off blocks. He was supposed to be working on his strength but was leapfrogged by rookie Bernard. When he does get there he packs some nasty, though. He'll have a lot to learn to see good playing time at OLB. I'd say he's a developmental Fujita.
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Old 04-02-2010, 05:58 PM    (permalink
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The Browns defense is really getting better. If they get Berry, they'll have three fourths of a very awesome secondary. Now only if they get a QB, they could be a sleeper team.
And like 4 or 5 receivers.
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Old 04-02-2010, 06:01 PM    (permalink
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Real similar to Kam Wimbley imo. Better in space however. He's got good fluidity in the open field and I often wondered if he'd be a better 40 front jumbo OLB. He made one notable play in preseason where he intercepted with his hands and ran it in for a score, and looked fluid doing it. As a pass rusher he simply can't get off blocks. He was supposed to be working on his strength but was leapfrogged by rookie Bernard. When he does get there he packs some nasty, though. He'll have a lot to learn to see good playing time at OLB. I'd say he's a developmental Fujita.
Thank god. Hopefully the Eagles coaches can turn him into an effective SLB in the 43 defense. He doesn't need to be able to get to the pass rusher in the Eagles scheme. I am really hoping you're right.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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Just gotta say this is some of the best news I've heard all offseason long, getting rid of our divisions best corner FTW.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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Yeah that's me after reading your posts in this thread going from freaking out to saying that Sheldon Brown isn't really that good and Gocong (made for a 3-4 but in your 4-3) isn't going to be anything for the Browns.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:55 PM    (permalink
Sniper
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Eagles got bent over and raped. End of story.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:55 PM    (permalink
Thumper
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Yeah that's me after reading your posts in this thread going from freaking out to saying that Sheldon Brown isn't really that good and Gocong (made for a 3-4 but in your 4-3) isn't going to be anything for the Browns.
Nope Brown is good, he just has no place on the Browns. The Browns are rebuilding, they have no place for 31 year old CB. It really isn't a good deal for the Browns either, they get a good veteran but he won't be around for when they finally get good enough to compete. Brown is going to waste away on the Browns, his talents are still there but he is starting to fade and he should've went to a contender, not a perennial bottom feeder.

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Old 04-02-2010, 07:58 PM    (permalink
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Nope Brown is good, he just has no place on the Browns. The Browns are rebuilding, they have no place for 31 year old CB. It really isn't a good deal for the Browns either, they get a good veteran but he won't be around for when they finally get good enough to compete. Brown is going to waste away on the Browns, his talents are still there but he is starting to fade and he should've went to a contender, not a perennial bottom feeder.

They gave up nothing for an elite stopgap, seriously who better where they going to find to fill in opposite Wright until they've filled out the rest of the roster? It's a great deal for the Browns, it's a ****** deal for Sheldon and the Iggles, but for the browns it's great, lets them focus on other needs this year.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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We traded a 4th 5th and someone who would never see the field on our team for a top 10 corner in the league and someone who has a good chance of possibly starting on our team. And on top of it, you were FURIOUS earlier.

EDIT : On top of it, this will be a great veteran leader for our secondary and someone for Eric Wright to learn from, this is fantastic for us. Not saying you can't hit in the draft but I'll take the veteran leader who is proven and a great player still for the 4th and 5th.

EDIT EDIT : AND WHY THE **** WOULD YOU TRADE AWAY A PLAYER LIKE SHELDON BROWN IF YOURE TRYING TO MAKE PLAYOFF/SUPER BOWL PUSHES?

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