2010 Packers In-Draft Discussion

[PossibleCabbage]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

Yes, he won one pass-protecting for the prolific Trent Dilfer-led Ravens offense. Trent won as many rings as Farve did.
I still think Anthony Munoz was the best ever. But Ogden was pretty damn good. Very tall guy.

Well, that's true. Teams tend not to win championships because they have outstanding blocking (other than maybe the Lombardi era Packers). Teams tend to win championships with adequate blocking and some other outstanding aspect of their offensive game.

But you're not going to have an all-pro at every position, you're always going to have to make tradeoffs somewhere. I'm personally firmly of the belief that (at least in the NFL) you do better on offense with "good enough" blocking and elite QB play. It's similar on defense, actually, where you do better with a "good enough" secondary and a very solid front 7. Best to have the strength of your team be the guys who are going to spend the most time close to the ball, as they're going to be involved in the most plays.

[contento]

Originally Posted by PossibleCabbage

Yes.

Jake Long (6′7 1/8", 313)
3-Cone Drill: 7.44
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.73
(Arms: 32 7/8")

Joe Thomas (6'6 1/2", 311)
3-Cone Drill: 7.95
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.88
(Arms: 32 1/2")

Bryan Bulaga (6'5 3/8", 314)
3-Cone Drill: 7.40
20 Yrd Shuttle: 4.62
(Arms: 33 1/4")

[40 time is irrelevant for offensive linemen. 10 yard split per unit weight (weight/height) is relevant, but not as much so as for other positions. No other "athleticism" metrics the combine measures matter; 3 cone and short shuttle are the best indicators of OL athleticism.]

I've also, you know, seen every game that Robert Gallery and Bryan Bulaga ever played as a Hawkeye, and seen quite a bit of Thomas and Long as well. If I recall correctly, Gallery tested pretty well (I don't have him on any of my spreadsheets), but even when he was dominant in college, his feet were horrible.

You're honestly posting times from two combine drills and concluding that Bulaga is more athletic than Thomas/Long/Gallery? jesus, it's okay to let the pipe cool down once in a while...


Thomas is a no-brainer, I think you're out on a real thin branch with your opinion on him verse Bulaga. Thomas is the most athletic OT since Walter Jones, even if the numbers aren't eye-popping. He's a converted TE who still moves like a TE even at 300+ pounds.

Long I might've agreed with you before last season, but after that awful first game he proved that he's as athletic as any OT going...not to mention his functional strength blows Bulaga out of the water.

Gallery posted a 4.38 SS and 7.43 3-cone, while being 2 inches taller than Bulaga. Again, widely considered a physical marvel coming out and another converted TE who lost little agility while being 315lbs or so.


I know it's convenient for you to ignore other measurables of overall athleticism like 40times/Broad Jump/Vertical, because they deflate your argument, but suffice it to say Bulaga was below average on all those events.


I'm glad you saw every game Bulaga played, and I'm sure NFL scouts did as well, which makes me wonder how he can be more athletic than PB'ers like Long and Thomas- yet get passed on 22 times AND be the 4th OT taken in the draft?

[umphrey]

Well it seems to me one of you is saying Bulaga is more athletic because he tested better as a prospect, and the other is saying Bulaga is less athletic because of college tape of him vs NFL tape of the others. One of your arguments is completely flawed at this point but the best way to determine once we get him on the field.

[contento]

Don't forget I'm also discounting Bulaga because he's from Iowa, a product of Ferentz the "OL Guru" who has yet to develop an above-average NFL offensive lineman.

[Boston]

Originally Posted by contento

Don't forget I'm also discounting Bulaga because he's from Iowa, a product of Ferentz the "OL Guru" who has yet to develop an above-average NFL offensive lineman.

Aaron Rodgers is from Cal...what's your point?

[johbur]

Yeah, those Tedford guys never do well, especially when they're on the short side...

Anyways, though initially underwhelmed by this draft class as I still feel CB is a serious issue, I think there might be a handful of players that stick on the team, and really, whether a player is taken in R1 or UDFA, if they're still on the team after four years, that was a good selection. I am worried about the injuries some of the prospects have, but the OL and DL received help and now TT has turned his eye to the UDFAs, and he's been solid finding guys there. One thing about it now is that if these draft picks do stick, then the players TT acquired prior were the busts. Like on the OL, if Newhouse bumps someone, and it's not Dietrich-Smith, that means yet another TT OL prospect has failed. I don't know whether it's hard to judge OL, or whether the Packers scouting staff recently hasn't done such a good job of doing so, but there have been 10 picks on the OL by TT, and he has two starters in Sitton and Colledge, with Spitz a possible starter again if he comes back strong from injury an maybe Lang in there mixing it up. Coston, Whitticker (who did start, though obviously out of desperation rather than talent), Moll (also had double digit starts but again out of injury needs versus talent), Meredith didn't make the club and Barbre and Giacomini haven't shown anything more than off-field promise. With Bulaga a lock and Newhouse likely making the team, who gets cut this year?

[GB12]

You can't hit on every prospect. I think the problem with most Ted Thompson critics is that they expect perfection or at least close to it.

Hitting on 3 out of 8 lineman (not going to count '09 or '10 yet) is pretty damn good. Especially when you look at the rounds he took them in. Out of the 5 that didn't turn out not a single one of them was taken before the 4th round. You can't expect starters out of rounds 4-7. Obviously they can be found there, but you can't fault him that. And besides there have been 46 starts made between those 5 that didn't pan out. Sure they might have been pushed into starting, but it's not like they were completely worthless

[tjsunstein]

NFLDraftScout.com has received Georgia Tech's official pro day results, which weren't posted by NFL.com, and Burnett turned a 3.92-second shuttle run, which was the fastest among all prospects recorded at pro days across the country. Burnett also posted a 4.44-second 40-yard dash that was discounted because he rolled at the start.

[umphrey]

Originally Posted by johbur

Yeah, those Tedford guys never do well, especially when they're on the short side...

Anyways, though initially underwhelmed by this draft class as I still feel CB is a serious issue, I think there might be a handful of players that stick on the team, and really, whether a player is taken in R1 or UDFA, if they're still on the team after four years, that was a good selection. I am worried about the injuries some of the prospects have, but the OL and DL received help and now TT has turned his eye to the UDFAs, and he's been solid finding guys there. One thing about it now is that if these draft picks do stick, then the players TT acquired prior were the busts. Like on the OL, if Newhouse bumps someone, and it's not Dietrich-Smith, that means yet another TT OL prospect has failed. I don't know whether it's hard to judge OL, or whether the Packers scouting staff recently hasn't done such a good job of doing so, but there have been 10 picks on the OL by TT, and he has two starters in Sitton and Colledge, with Spitz a possible starter again if he comes back strong from injury an maybe Lang in there mixing it up. Coston, Whitticker (who did start, though obviously out of desperation rather than talent), Moll (also had double digit starts but again out of injury needs versus talent), Meredith didn't make the club and Barbre and Giacomini haven't shown anything more than off-field promise. With Bulaga a lock and Newhouse likely making the team, who gets cut this year?

Well I agree that up until now (before the draft) his only success has been Sitton, Lang, possibly Spitz, and he's done a poor job drafting OL. But some of those guys you have to put in perspective at when they were taken.
-Whittacker we just needed someone, anyone able to start at guard
-Coston, Giacomini, Barbre, Meredith were boom/bust picks that all busted. This is the low point, because he swung for the fences 4 times and didn't manage a single.
-Colledge was another failure, a guard they thought could play tackle, but he isn't even a good guard.
-Moll they just wanted a utility backup and IMO according to their assessment of him he could give them some security until they were able to establish proper backups.

So my point is Lang, Sitton and Spitz were winners, Coston, Giacomini, Barbre, Meredith were lottery tickets that lost, Colledge hurt the most because the second round should produce starters, and give him a pass on Moll and Whittacker because he was just using late round picks to fill space until they found someone better.

That's a fairly average track record I'd say. He gets and deserves blame for the abysmal line he put out there at the start of 09 though, which is why people scrutinize his draft record so much. However, if all goes as planned and Bulaga, Lang, Sitton, Spitz are all decent, then we'll have to pat him on the back. We'll have to wait and see on that. Personally I'm glad he retained 2 veteran tackles, a decent center and IMO a sub-par LG in addition to those 4 guys that look good for the future, so even if the plan fails we have time to adjust.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by umphrey

-Coston, Giacomini, Barbre, Meredith were boom/bust picks that all busted. This is the low point, because he swung for the fences 4 times and didn't manage a single.

So my point is Lang, Sitton and Spitz were winners, Coston, Giacomini, Barbre, Meredith were lottery tickets that lost....

I don't think youc an call Meredith a bust already. He didn't ever get a chance. You have to remember that a lot of now-good NFL O-Linemen did nothing their first year also. Meredith did more than many of them, just not for us because Ted tried (unsuccessfully) to hide him on the practice squad. You can't do that with a 6th round pick that had been projected much higher.

Also, if you can officially label Spitz as a winner, then we might have some problems there. He's been average to slightlly above average when he has played. Injuries are no fault of the GM, but they do matter and IMO must be considered into the grade of the player and his performance.

The pick of Spitz has been okay, but the good side to that is that hopefully people start to realize that Scott Wells is actually good. Everyone seems to always want to push Wells out the door because Bedard says that Spitz is bigger and better. We've not seen the evidence. Wells' body of work has been solid.

I'm not as down on the Bulaga pick as before, but I still wanted Jerry Hughes and would have sacrificed our #1 next year and more, plus a player or two, to have traded up to get Hughes. I wish we knew if TT made any attempt to trade up for him.

[jackalope]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

I don't think youc an call Meredith a bust already. He didn't ever get a chance. You have to remember that a lot of now-good NFL O-Linemen did nothing their first year also. Meredith did more than many of them, just not for us because Ted tried (unsuccessfully) to hide him on the practice squad. You can't do that with a 6th round pick that had been projected much higher.

Also, if you can officially label Spitz as a winner, then we might have some problems there. He's been average to slightlly above average when he has played. Injuries are no fault of the GM, but they do matter and IMO must be considered into the grade of the player and his performance.

The pick of Spitz has been okay, but the good side to that is that hopefully people start to realize that Scott Wells is actually good. Everyone seems to always want to push Wells out the door because Bedard says that Spitz is bigger and better. We've not seen the evidence. Wells' body of work has been solid.

I'm not as down on the Bulaga pick as before, but I still wanted Jerry Hughes and would have sacrificed our #1 next year and more, plus a player or two, to have traded up to get Hughes. I wish we knew if TT made any attempt to trade up for him.

That would have been a terrible move if you ask me.

[J-Mike88]

Originally Posted by jackalope

That would have been a terrible move if you ask me.

They say this was a very good draft and if Hughes was good enough to be a 1st rounder this draft, he surely was next draft. But getting him an extra year (with, essentially next year's pick) is more than worth it if he's as good as I think he is.
Time will tell, although he now is on a team with a 4-3 unlike ours, so it's apples to oranges now.

[cuzifelt1ikeit]

Originally Posted by jackalope

That would have been a terrible move if you ask me.

agreed. id be pretty bummed with that outcome. depending on the players being sent. next years first is a lot to give up.

[RyanBraun8]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

I'm not as down on the Bulaga pick as before, but I still wanted Jerry Hughes and would have sacrificed our #1 next year and more, plus a player or two, to have traded up to get Hughes. I wish we knew if TT made any attempt to trade up for him.

If they were interested in him and thought he was good enough to trade a future first round pick for amongst other players/picks you'd think they would have picked him at 23. Not to mention being picked at 31 doesn't make him a solid 1st round player or worth a future 1st rounder. It would have been a pure wast of a future pick. I could understand maybe making a trade like they did for Clay last season but nothing close to what you suggested.

[J-Mike88]

You gotta remember, next year's 1st for us is going to be one pick away from a 2nd round pick.

If Jerry Hughes is as good as I think he's gonna be, then it would have been a steal, however we got him, just like Matthews. If the player is that good, the pricetag is going to seem fair.

Anyway, time to get your #75 MOLL jersey changed to BULAGA.
I like Bulaga more and more....... and I don't mind the Colts so I can still root for Hughes most of the time.

[johbur]

Maybe instead of scattering picks in the later rounds when he could have picked up, say a real punter, TT shoulda used his picks on OL in earlier rounds, maybe NOT trading down 10 times to accrue all those 4-7 picks that used to be 1-3 rounders. He also had free agency and trades available for solving the OL. As it is, he's still patching the OL together with Wolf and Sherman's OL picks. Starting with letting Wahl and Rivera walk and trying to replace them with two guys that were making less than 1 million combined, I just haven't seen TT serious about the OL until this year.

I love the Bulage pick, and the more I read about Newhouse and watch tape on him, the more I think Barbre and/or Giacomini are going to be on a different club after this camp. It'd be odd to have two rookie starters on the OL again, but I think it is a definite possibility now.

[TitleTown088]

Originally Posted by J-Mike88

I'm not as down on the Bulaga pick as before, but I still wanted Jerry Hughes and would have sacrificed our #1 next year and more, plus a player or two, to have traded up to get Hughes. I wish we knew if TT made any attempt to trade up for him.

I think you're missing what this draft said about Ted and Capers insight into this defense. While it may be a simple case of an OLB not being top of their board I think they're content with Brad Jones, and you can't blame them. He's cheap and performed fairly well last season as a rookie. I think the drafting ( of pass rushers) along the Dline is showing that capers sees an improved pass rush coming from lineman, not just OLB like so many fans and writers expect.